Lost few plecos, can't figure out the reason

Jaz · Post by **Jaz** » 05 Jun 2012, 06:44

We have lost few l-174's over 3 weeks now. Water parameters are fine and other fishes are fine. Examined few adults and couldn't see anything wrong with them. Still few adult fishes have died and it can't all be from fighting. I have had problems with frozen food before, but then the effect was a disaster within discus. I though the first ones just had a fight so didn't examine them more, but this last one I tried to look more. His belly was a bit big and genitals were bloody.

Is there a way to figure out if this was because of the food or if there is a disease or something? No new fishes have been added for months.

Post by **Barbie** » 05 Jun 2012, 06:56

I realize that the sticky at the top of the forum seems to ask totally redundant questions, but if you could give us that information it would give us a better idea how to guess at things that might help. What they are eating, how warm, tank mates, tank size, all of that really is going to be needed to even try to help.

Barbie

Jaz · Post by **Jaz** » 05 Jun 2012, 07:36

Sorry Barbie

Here comes

1. Water parameters
a) Temperature range: 28 - 30 celsius
b) pH: 6.5
c) GH: 6
d) KH: 6
e) Nitrate: 10, Nitrite: 0
f) Water change frequency: Once a week 50%
(Most LFS's will check your water and give a list of readings).

2. Tank set up
a) Size: 300 litres, kids have separated tank
b) Substrate: gravel
c) Filtration: 2 x 1200l inner, 1 external
d) Furnishings: rocks, mangrove
e) Other tank mates: L333 juveniles, L134 juveniles, L201 juveniles, 2xL46
f) How long has it been set-up? 3 years
g) When was the last new fish added? 3 months ago
h) Foods used and frequency? frozen bloodworms, frozen shrimp, mix of about 10 different pellets. Kids get alot but only pellets, others 3x week

3. Symptoms / Problem description
Fish dead at morning, no problems detected before. Belly was a bit big, genitals bloody

4. Action taken (if any)
Additional waterchanges

5. Medications used (if any)
None

wrasse · Post by **wrasse** » 05 Jun 2012, 18:22

In my view your water parameters are very good. All your fish appreciate strong aeration and current, in that warm water.
I don't think a disease is the cause of deaths here. I do think it's a bacterial infection in the gut.
I suspect the food, specifically the bloodworm. Ideally it should be bright red and intact, not dark or degraded.

Don't feed bloodworm for quite a while... and feed it sparingly when you resume.
In addition I would treat with aquarium salt @ 1tsp per 5 gallons.

Flyfisher · Post by **Flyfisher** » 05 Jun 2012, 18:55

Id be tempted to stop with the frozen bloodworm and replace with garden worms. Chopped up.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 05 Jun 2012, 20:25

I agree with the food being the culprit. However, I am not sure about infection. Might be time to switch to a staple of granules and the odd offering of spirulina tabs.

Jools

Jaz · Post by **Jaz** » 06 Jun 2012, 09:37

Yeah I couldn't figure out any other reason than the food since there were no deaths within the babies. If the water params are messed, they are the first to go.

Can salt be used safe even if there are 1 month old babies in the tank?

Post by **Shane** » 06 Jun 2012, 13:50

Can salt be used safe even if there are 1 month old babies in the tank?

Why do you want to add salt? Salt does have a handful of specific medicinal purposes in the aquarium (removing hydra, removing leeches) but I am not seeing that you are facing these issues.
Have a look at this article http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/arti ... cle22.html

-Shane

pleco_breeder · Post by **pleco_breeder** » 06 Jun 2012, 17:21

I agree that this sounds like internal bacteria, and a change in diet may help. Likewise, salt is rarely a good cure for this type of problem.

However, I'm curious what other symptoms the fish may have been showing. Depending on the source of the infection, it may be common to see things like fin rot, external lesions/sores, distressed breathing, or erratic swimming/movements.

Till the reason for the infection is figured out and resolved, it is likely you'll continue seeing mystery deaths. In the mean time, I can only suggest keeping the tank as clean as possible and regular filter maintenance. Often something as simple as a bacteria/infusoria bloom can cause these infections. I've seen that happen a few times when I try to push a dry season too long and get lax about cleaning filters.

Larry

wrasse · Post by **wrasse** » 06 Jun 2012, 21:20

When I suggested using aquarium salt, it was to help boost the immune system of your fish.
It will aid oxygen absorption and slime production.
I use it as a matter of course with new fish.

Zeno · Post by **Zeno** » 07 Jun 2012, 07:23

wrasse wrote:When I suggested using aquarium salt, it was to help boost the immune system of your fish.
It will aid oxygen absorption and slime production.
I use it as a matter of course with new fish.

Never heard that salt boost up the immune system.
Salt has a sort of burning effect, that's why it is used against parasites.
Put a wounded hand in a bucket with a lot of salt and you will know what i mean.

Greetz, Zeno

wrasse · Post by **wrasse** » 07 Jun 2012, 08:27

Zeno wrote:Never heard that salt boost up the immune system.
Salt has a sort of burning effect, that's why it is used against parasites.
Put a wounded hand in a bucket with a lot of salt and you will know what i mean.

You are just too wise

Post by **Shane** » 07 Jun 2012, 11:28

When I suggested using aquarium salt, it was to help boost the immune system of your fish.
It will aid oxygen absorption and slime production.
I use it as a matter of course with new fish.

Wrasse, can you point to any published scientific literature that salt has these effects? I have put some research in to this topic and am not aware of any. I do know that the higher the level of salt in water the less oxygen the water can hold, so I am not sure how salt would aid oxygen absorbtion.
As Zeno, pointed out a dip in full strength sea water can remove some parasites and salt can be applied directly to larger parasites like leeches to affect their removal.
-Shane

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 07 Jun 2012, 11:34

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/vm007

We might be getting a bit off topic here though as I've yet to see proof of anything bacterial going on. Why's in not just a blocked gut? If I've picked it up right, the adult plecos are being fed different things to the kids.

Jools

Jaz · Post by **Jaz** » 07 Jun 2012, 12:48

I didn't add any salt yet. I got rid of all frozen food and changed to only pellets. And yes, kids and adults had a slightly different diet since the kids only had pellets, but adults got also a mix of different frozen foods. I've changed a lot of water now and cleaned the filters.

I'll keep watching what happens and try to look if I see anything strange.

Thanks for help, I'll update if I find out something.

wrasse · Post by **wrasse** » 07 Jun 2012, 16:40

Wrasse, can you point to any published scientific literature that salt has these effects? I have put some research in to this topic and am not aware of any. I do know that the higher the level of salt in water the less oxygen the water can hold, so I am not sure how salt would aid oxygen absorbtion.
As Zeno, pointed out a dip in full strength sea water can remove some parasites and salt can be applied directly to larger parasites like leeches to affect their removal.
-Shane

firstly, water that's so salty it makes your hand tingle is a lot saltier than seawater BUT in this case I proposed a mere 1tsp salt per 5 gallons.
No, I can't refer you to scientific literature on these effects of salt and therefore they may not be accurate. However, this is what I have gleaned from other experienced aquarists. Their general view is that salt can help at this low dose, not so much to treat a specific disease or parasite, but to treat fishes that appear 'not right', whether it's for an unknown reason, or due to stress, being moved, newly arrived, etc.
If a fish's health improves during treatment then it could be fairly assumed that its breathing ability is improved, its resistance to disease is improved.
I readily treat with aquarium salt newly bought fish and at other times if I suspect something is wrong

Back on subject - it may be the food that caused the deaths, or an infection, or both. At that point, if the remaining fish in the tank look okay, I would treat with salt and possibly myxazin or a tonic, to prevent new cases.

-Richard