My Horabagrus brachysoma

[minipol]

Hi,

i shot (as in film, not dead 2 of my 5 Horabagrus brachysoma.
They must be close to just over a year old now.
I really really love 'em. Not sure what they are doing in the clip, fighting or playing.

I have thought of adding more as they really seem to do well in group and love the company.
But for the moment, they remain with 5.
Other catfish in the tank are a 30cm P. pardalis and a 30cm Paraugenoglanis species.
For ciclids, it's an adult F. rostratus and 2 adult females, and 12 smaller F. rostratus (also 1 male in the pack)
It works well, they leave each other alone.
Tank is 270cmx90cmx70xm (8.85ft x 2.95ft x 2.29ft)

[tomr]

cool video

[Viktor Jarikov]

Welcome to the forum, Minipol. Nice tank, a rarity around here. 440 US gal. Looks balanced and tasteful too. You must know what you are doing (another rarity )

I think they are fighting. Not viciously, not for life. Probably just still establishing a pecking order. Mine 6 (4"-7") did kind of the same thing but then I saw groups of 6-8 sub-adults (7"-10") swimming peacefully all together in the open in dimmed day light. I can't forget that picture (at an LFS). Mine never really injured or even scraped each other.

Where are your other 3? Hiding? You probably are impatiently waiting for them to reach a foot or so (they can grow to 1.5' SL or 1.8' TL). I was.

[Scleropages]

Looks like a territorial/social display. As Viktor said: pecking order stuff. Nice setup! Please stick around and share your knowledge. And, thank you for not pumping your catfish full of lead.

[minipol]

Thanks for the comments.

@Viktor
So a bigger group is better then? Or is a group of 5 ok?
The other 3 are hiding. To the left, I've made a kind of enclosure with big rocks.
In there, I have about 8 big pipes so every catfish has his own hiding place.
But the Hora's do come out a lot. An even in daylight, but then it's mostly 1 or 2.
When it's getting later, then they do come out as a group. But funny thing is, almost every
time, 1 still hides so 4 of them are cruising and 1 is hiding. Very weird.
I''m definitely waiting until they grow bigger.
How many years did yours take to get that big?

@Scleropages
I love 'em to much to pump lead in them
I like this kind of catfish. It has kind of a sharkish look, they like to swim and when they feed,
it's whiskers in front and cruise the bottom. Very nice to see.

[Suckermouth]

Very interesting. It looks like pecking order stuff indeed. It seems they have a system. They appear to not be using their sharp pectoral fin spines, and the lack of obvious scratches on the fish also suggests that they are not going for damage. It looks like the "aggressor" targets the shoulder spot, or perhaps slightly posterior to the spot, and tries to push the fish; the shoulder area is approximately the major center of gravity (and this area is generally a good, stable place to hold a catfish by) and allows the aggressor to push the other fish around. The other fish, however, is able to respond by kicking the other fish away with their tail. It looks much less damaging than what loricariids do.

I feel like these types of behaviors are still not well documented. Nice video that gives a peek into the lives of these fish.

[Viktor Jarikov]

M: So a bigger group is better then? Or is a group of 5 ok?
VJ: 5 is ok but bigger should be better from my limited knowledge and understanding, not my first hand experience. What you describe below is close to what I observed too: 1-2 often are in the open and engaged in a "sumo" combat, other zoom out and back in. When I had just 1 or 2, or even 3, they were mostly hiding.

M: The other 3 are hiding. To the left, I've made a kind of enclosure with big rocks.
In there, I have about 8 big pipes so every catfish has his own hiding place.
But the Hora's do come out a lot. An even in daylight, but then it's mostly 1 or 2.
When it's getting later, then they do come out as a group. But funny thing is, almost every
time, 1 still hides so 4 of them are cruising and 1 is hiding. Very weird.
VJ: interesting. There must also be a size-confidence relationship. My biggest ones were most visible.

M: I''m definitely waiting until they grow bigger. How many years did yours take to get that big?
VJ: Mine all were rescues and LFS trade-ins/returns except one, so I can only go by my smallest 3" guy. He was slow. Perhaps got to 6" within 2 years - an exercise in patience. Most keepers report slow. Some claim up to 5" a year.

This is one cat that every LFS has... BUT I have never ever seen a bigger sun cat than about under a foot TL in all my fishy endeavors. That must tell you they either grow real slow or get stunted easily.

M: I like this kind of catfish. It has kind of a sharkish look, they like to swim and when they feed, it's whiskers in front and cruise the bottom. Very nice to see.
VJ: yep. That's why the picture I saw at an LFS is stuck in my head. It was awesome.

[minipol]

@Suckermouth

They appear to not be using their sharp pectoral fin spines

No they don't, I haven't seen any damage yet. I did however do some damage myself (completely healed).
When I was redoing this tank, I caught them and placed them in another tank for a few days.
Then when I caught them again, the last one got into a defence mode and stuck out his pectoral fin spines.
Wow. He was stuck in the net. I took 20 m to free him again.
The fins where a bit damaged because he was trying to get free.
But after a week or so, the fins where ok again.
Easiest way around this is to not catch them at all
Or buy a net with larger holes...

As for pushing the shoulder spot, now that you say it, that is indeed the spot that they try to get to.
Wow, I never realised this is a center of gravity. I will be able to look more closely to these encounters

@Viktor
Bigger is better then. And in what sence, do they feel more at ease in a larger group?
Or do they get more aggressive when they get big?

VJ: interesting. There must also be a size-confidence relationship. My biggest ones were most visible.

That is what I see as well. The biggest one ventures out first, and by doing so, he/she gets the most food.
I always throw in additional sinking pellets if I see the other catfish come out.

This is one cat that every LFS has...

They are very attractive, but I wonder if the size is the only reason people return them.
If you only keep a few of them, you are going to rarely seem them.

That must tell you they either grow real slow or get stunted easily.

Or maybe the maximum total length was really a huge specimen and 1 foot is the more common length?

Something else I saw, that is funny, is that the last couple of weeks, 1 of the Horabagrus is stationed outside
the rocky enclosure, and is lying beside the rock or sometimes vertical. Really funny to see.
There are pipes enough to hide in yet he seems to prefer the rock lately. Maybe the other chase him out?
That's the only downside to the rocks, I cannot see what goes on in there

Is there any way to tell the difference between male and female?

[Viktor Jarikov]

M: Or buy a net with larger holes...
VJ: or a piece of cloth, a cup, etc.

M: Wow, I never realised this is a center of gravity.
VJ: me neither. Interesting insight.

M: And in what sence, do they feel more at ease in a larger group?
VJ: security, safety in numbers, the dither fish effect, etc.

M: Or do they get more aggressive when they get big?
VJ: I have not noticed but I have not had them long enough, only about 2-2.5 years.

M: That is what I see as well. The biggest one ventures out first, and by doing so, he/she gets the most food. I always throw in additional sinking pellets if I see the other catfish come out.
VJ: Yep, that's a common problem. The biggest get bigger faster.

M: They are very attractive, but I wonder if the size is the only reason people return them.
VJ: people are notoriously known to change their minds and hearts and get bored quickly. And as you said, they get one, it hides. They return.

M: Or maybe the maximum total length was really a huge specimen and 1 foot is the more common length?
VJ: I doubt that but maybe. We really need an input here from someone who kept/keeps large adults.

M: Something else I saw, that is funny, is that the last couple of weeks, 1 of the Horabagrus is stationed outside the rocky enclosure, and is lying beside the rock or sometimes vertical. Really funny to see. There are pipes enough to hide in yet he seems to prefer the rock lately. Maybe the other chase him out?
VJ: I hope it is behavioral. Such changes sometimes may signal health concerns, almost always impossible to chase down. Digestive discomfort e.g. Keep a close eye on that guy.

M: Is there any way to tell the difference between male and female?
VJ: Cat-elog says no. All I can say. But you are right, it should bear on "aggression" and "courage" and pecking order and other group dynamics.

[CatfishPownage63]

whats pecking order? and i was told by my pet store that sun cats only got 8 to 12 in. and rarley over 14in. so if my pair gets 18 in. WOW i'am going to need a bigger tank. unless they can live in a 65 gallon tank

[Suckermouth]

By pecking order, we mean the hierarchy of dominance. In many animals, not all group members are equal, there is a top dog (so to speak), and the members of the group compete over being the most dominant.

[Viktor Jarikov]

... i was told by my pet store that sun cats only got 8 to 12 in. and rarley over 14in. so if my pair gets 18 in. WOW i'am going to need a bigger tank. unless they can live in a 65 gallon tank

Sorry, I can only repeat my plea.

M: Or maybe the maximum total length was really a huge specimen and 1 foot is the more common length?
VJ: I doubt that but maybe. We really need an input here from someone who kept/keeps large adults.

[CatfishPownage63]

oh my bad

[Viktor Jarikov]

I don't think there is a bad. We appear in need of this info. You brought it into focus again. I am not hopeful though because, as I said, I've never seen a longer than 11" one live, neither did I came across anyone with a group of 18"-ers or some such...

[minipol]

I'm hoping to keep them long enough. The largest one I have is about 16-18cm (6.3-7.1 inch)
From what I observe is that they aren't fast growers. And most people don't keep fish around for several years so
a lot of info on total length is missed this way.

Maybe 11 inch is more common as a maximum in the aquarium, and 18 inch might be the maximum in the wild for an old cat, I don't know.
They are not uncommon so one would expect that there must be people around that have kept them in large enoughs tanks for
more than say, 5 years or so.

[CatfishPownage63]

well i guess your right because its probably going to take a while to get this big and this picture off of google images and its not mine its someone else's from another catfish forum thats called aquatic predators under: loaches,plecos and other bottom dwellers and the thread is sun catfish (horabarus brachysoma)

p.s i didn't post a link because i don't know how but any way here is the picture

post-2401-1141838692_thumb.jpg (19.67 KiB) Viewed 13138 times

[Scleropages]

well i guess your right because its probably going to take a while to get this big and this is off of google images and its not mine its someone else's from another catfish forum thats called aquatic predators under: loaches,plecos and other bottom dwellers and the thread is sun catfish (horabarus brachysoma)

p.s i didn't post a link because i don't know how but any way here is the picture

If I were your editor, here is how I would clean up your grammar, punctuation, and misuse of the words your/you're and its/it's. This time, it's free. Next time, I'm going to have to charge you an editing fee.


Well, I guess you're right because it's probably going to take a while to get this big. This (picture) is off of google images. It's not mine. It belongs to someone else from another catfish forum that's called Aquatic Predators. It was in the section called "Loaches, plecos, and other bottom dwellers". The thread I found it in is called "Sun Catfish (Horabagrus brachysoma)".

P.S. - I didn't post a link because I don't know how, but here is the picture.

[CatfishPownage63]

what is an editing fee and why is the text red above the picture of godzilla

[minipol]

Aargh can we please keep the topic on Horabagrus instead of spelling?
Not everybody is a native English speaker.

The Horabagrus in the last picture is big indeed.
Any idea how old they get?

[Scleropages]

I'm not only talking about spelling. I'm talking about punctuation and word usage as well.

I am going with the odds that if someone lives and goes to school in Arizona, they are a native English speaker.

It's hard to tell how large the H. brachysoma in that last pic is. It does look big, but how big? I would imagine they can live to at least 10 years old, and probably more like 15+, if they can achieve 20" TL.

[CatfishPownage63]

the thing spelling and grammer is not my thing,but iam only 12 (almost 13) not using my age as an exuse for and grammer

and minipol, sorry about the subject change,but myself presanaly i need a recap of whats going on because i don't know if we're talking about pecking orders or the size of them

[minipol]

No problem, I don't mind as long as it's about catfish, it's ok

[CatfishPownage63]

thanks

[minipol]

Time for a couple of new shots of my Horas. Biggest of the 6 is a female, and I guess near or over 25cm. Rest is just above 20cm. This is guessing, I should really try to
measure them. They have been with malawi haps, and in a Asian themed setup. Eventually they ended up with the malawi in a 1100 liter indoor pond.
After 1,5 years, I moved them back with the haps to the main tank again (2100 l).
They are now again active during the day, and very visible.
I will get some better shots in the future, but here are a couple for the time being
I have them for 4 years and 3 months, and when I bought them, they were about 10cm. So I guess they are about 5 years old.
In the wild this is an age where they already might die. I hope I can keep them for lots more years.
Still my nr. 1 catfish

[catfishchaos]

They yellow on the belly is phenomenal! Have you considered trying your hand at breeding them (no small feat mind you...)

[minipol]

No, although I could do if I wanted but that would mean shifting around some more fish and I don't have the room right now.
Otherwise, the 1100 l indoor pond would be ideal. Sand, rocks, branches of berch or oak, some plants and who knows.
I might try it in the future but right now, I enjoy having them back in the main tank.

[minipol]

After putting the malawi I bred in the show tank, I went back to my previous Chalakudy-ish setup.
I didn't want to move my various catfish to another tank as they do well in this kind of setup.
So the look is a riverine, with good current, lot's of pebbles and rocks, and an oak brach.
Lot's of catfish, 1m/2f Pristolepis marginata, 1 Pristolepis grootii, +-26 Devario malabaricus (resembles Barilius bakeri), 6 Horabagrus brachysoma
and other catfish I've kept for a long time.

[minipol]

After I've changed my Malawi to a bigger holding tank, I had to move the Horabagrus from that tank.
I've setup a 2m tank for them and some Devario malabaricus and Melotaenia. We'll see what happens.
Night light is on (just a few leds) just to be on the safe side.
That's it. The Horabagrus are way happy. I have them about 6 years now, and guestimated from the size when I bought them (not getting fed a lot in the shop), they are definitely 6,5 years old or maybe a bit older.

[bekateen]

Wow!... Just... Wow!

[Shovelnose]

Nice to see them thriving!!!!