Unknown Hypancistrus sp. - Orinoco basin

[Unungy]

Hi Guys.

Orinoco basin, I've seen a few of these going to Asia but do we have a name for them?

[HaakonH]

H.sp."Platinum", or in Japan H.sp."Emperor". Nice! Just one?

Haakon

[Unungy]

I got a group of 3, hopefully I can allocate them to a good breeder.
The other two are still young.

[HaakonH]

Too bad you're in the US then, I'd like to breed them

Haakon

[Unungy]

too bad man.
You'll be a good candidate.

[pleco22]

Hi,

I think that could be H. sp "platinum" from venezuela.

They are close to L 129/340 but they are very rare.

If you couls send them to germany - I have some caves for them

Regards

[Unungy]

I think you're right. H. sp "platinum"
The smaller ones are also very nice. I'll try to take pics of them soon.

[Unungy]

The smaller ones look more "Yellowish", it is kind of odd if you compare both of them.

Could it be that the smaller ones are something different?

[MatsP]

I'd say that's L340 - any reason why they should be something else?

--
Mats

[Unungy]

Hi Matt.

Yes I don't think its a L340 because of its pattern.
If you take a close look at the wavy lines and the dots of a typical L340, they aren't present. Also the white markings on the body are much thicker than a normal L340.

[Yann]

Hi!!

I do believe they are just a local population of L340
Still beautifull but nothing more or else
Cheers
Yann

[Unungy]

Hi Yann.

Maybe you're right or NOT, as very few specimens get collected or found in the wild. We don't get enough data to compare with other specimens of the same kind.
Their origin is uncertain that is for sure, or as any good fishmen won't provide much details of the true location.

However there are some clearly distinctive markings on them that are very different than L340 or is it just me that I see it this way.

[har_eh]

great looking fish you got here, Saul - Would love to adopt them

[Unungy]

great looking fish you got here, Saul - Would love to adopt them

Thank you very much Sir.
I am sure you, Pleco22, Larry and many others will do a wonderful job of breeding them. I would love to get a good group of them first to decide their final destination.
I have noticed that they have the ability to turn very white or yellowish. My very first picture is very yellowish but the rest are more "white", this also happen when they are in my tanks as I don't know if they are white or yellow markings at times.

The same case happen to the smaller fish in the picture, notice he is very yellowish? almost looks like a total different specie?

[HaakonH]

I wonder if it's another example of how some Hypancistrus forms, in this case i.e. L340, sometimes occur as strikingly beautiful one-offs among a large number of ordinary ones. We have seen it with several Xingu forms, maybe it can happen in the Orinoco forms too?

If we knew wether H.sp."Platinum" is found in the wild together with L340 or not, we would perhaps be wiser. If this form is found in a different place where other Hypancistrus aren't present, it's very exciting. L340 has been bred many times in aquariums, but we don't see much offspring like these being offered to the public. I guess if L340 carries genes which can make some individuals look like this we would maybe have seen more evidence of that by now?

So this is maybe a form of L340 found at a certain location, or indeed a different species, but It doesn't seem like the regular L340s in the trade produce any offspring looking like these? I look forward to learning more about them though! If someone breeds a group of H.sp."Platinum" it will be very interesting to see the variation in the offspring.

Haakon

[Yann]

Well!

From my point of view L340 is just a geographical variation of Hypancistrus debilittera and even if many would disagree, the differences would fit what could be accepted for variation within a species.

If you look how much Hypancistrus deblittera can differ in term of colour variation, with some having almost no marking looking all dark brown and other would have colour similar to H. furunculus or L270.

While L340 and H. debilittera are a same species can be debatable, these Hypancistrus would really fit one variation expected for L340.
If coming from a different location he could probably benefit from a new L number, but "scientifically" it would be the same, just like what can be seen as sabaji.

Again make no mistake...I favour keeping geographical population seperatly in tanks, but there are no reason to consider them different species because of this.

Cheers
Yann

[Acanthicus]

However there are some clearly distinctive markings on them that are very different than L340 or is it just me that I see it this way.

Markings and patterns aren´t from any worth when it comes to the ID of a wormlined Hypancistrus. H. sp. "Platinum" will in my opinion turn out as a beautiful variety of L 340.

[Unungy]

hmmmm I'm afraid that patterning and making is all we have at the moment until further species are collected.
I can see the same thing happening with L98, L236 and L173. The only difference is that we are talking about a colombian\venezuelan pleco this time.

[Janne]

This is what I call LDA19... maybe a nice variety of L340, color change with water parameters and mood (many pleco's can be white, brown or yellow of the same specie).

Janne

[Yann]

Hi!

Yes and since LDA 19 and L340 are considered as the same...
The pattern of these fish can widely evolutated depending on their mood...

I have seen many L340 arriving with this "platinium" colour and after a few weeks once they had settle for a while...they would look like your last set of pic...

this is how my L340 arrived:


and this is how it looked after a while:


and in other conditions:


Cheers
Yann

[Unungy]

LDA19? L340? hmmmm

This pleco just looks to different than LDA19, L340's pics in our catalog.
None of the attempts of relating them with L340 have been very conclusive yet. I welcome the idea that these can live among them.
I certainly keep them in my collection until I can get some more of them in the near future. I should be able to take more pictures of them in couple of weeks to see if there has been any changes in color or pattern.

[lukan]

Hi Saul,

Whatever they are send them to the cold North. I'm pretty sure the water here in Toronto will make them even whiter like snow. Joking aside, it looks good. It would be nice to find out from the expert what they are?

Cheers,
Marte

[pleco_breeder]

The larger ones appear to be mature, so I'm curious how big they are.

Larry

[Unungy]

The larger ones appear to be mature, so I'm curious how big they are.

Larry

They are 3" inches and the juveniles are 2.2-2.5

[TwoTankAmin]

Saul- my offer from last night in chat still stands. Happy to help you out

I have never believed that 98 was not a 46 variant, but I am neither an ichthyologist nor a geneticist. Just a hunchologist. I love reading topics like this one, but I disbelieve almost everything I read in terms of IDs. Last year I posted pics of my 173b from Glaser, I was told in no uncertain terms by a number of folks that these fish were not 173s- people told me they were several different things. Now in this thread I statements like this:

It seems ever more likely that in the area around Belo Monte in Rio Xingu Hypancistrus forms are evolving into several species, subspecies and so on. And it's not all about the pattern, they vary in eye size, fin shape, body shape, length, and they all seem to be able to produce variable offspring. Whether they crossbreed in nature is unproven, but it doesn't seem unlikely.

Most of the Xingu forms are known to produce some young every now and then that stand out and look very different from their siblings. Maybe those we define as L173 are such rare one-offs?

I wonder where this statement was last year, certainly it wasn't in my thread. Like I said, love to read, but rarely believe. Let me add, I am so unqualified to make pleco IDs that I never even try. (Well that isn't completely true, I can ID an H. zebra).

Consider that example above about human beings of different races interbreeding and it not being a hybrid since humans are all the same species. The thing is, humans are a pretty diverse looking species. We are short, tall, fat or thin, all colors. We have all sorts of physical difference that make us all not look identical. Potentially, why should this be any different for plecos?

Lets just compare two distinct populations- professional basketball players and jockeys. Now if you get 100 of each in two groups and ask a being from another planet if these two are the same species, what do you thing the answer would be? Heck just put a black, white, Asian and Native American of similar builds next to each other and you will easily confuse our alien visitor. So why should this same type of exterior variation not be possible in other species, icluding plecos?

I think DNA is the only way to know the answers in terms of plecos. However, I highly doubt anybody will underwrite the research. I am aware of a genetic project involving wild angelfish, but they are not as diverse as the plecos "appear" to be.

In the long run all of this will be moot, at least in terms of the fish unique to the Xingu. The fish exclusive to this river will soon be all gone in the wild and knowing which were which species or variant wont matter all that much any more.

[Janne]

Yes and since LDA 19 and L340 are considered as the same...

But they do look different and the pattern of an LDA19 will not change to look like L340, color maybe and that we know change with mood, water parameters and some other factors. Why mix very nice LDA19 with L340 when it's possible to breed and get very nice offspring keeping them apart.

Last year I posted pics of my 173b from Glaser, I was told in no uncertain terms by a number of folks that these fish were not 173s- people told me they were several different things. Now in this thread I statements like this

Breeders mix up species or at least L-numbers and supply wholesalers like Glaser etc. there are no a,b or c species and it's not either correct to offer species of any fish where you not have all correct information about the original fish that are used for this breeding as a certain "new" specie. This problem start with the fisherman and ends at the one that buy them, fishermen say one thing and exporter use the same info, importers use the same info what they receive from the exporter, retailer use the same info they receive from the exporters and the buyer and breeder use the same info they got from the retailer, the breeder than breed them and sell to the wholesaler or retailer... and they look nice so lets give them an extra letter a, b etc. but... the fact is that fishermen deliver to a supplier that collect fish from many fishermen at different locations, these are often mixed just because they all are "L66" (example) and the exporter sell and ship them mixed as L66...

We are short, tall, fat or thin, all colors. We have all sorts of physical difference that make us all not look identical. Potentially, why should this be any different for plecos?

Because pleco's can't read.

I think DNA is the only way to know the answers in terms of plecos. However, I highly doubt anybody will underwrite the research.

It has just started and need a little more time.

In the long run all of this will be moot, at least in terms of the fish unique to the Xingu. The fish exclusive to this river will soon be all gone in the wild and knowing which were which species or variant wont matter all that much any more.

Not true, some species will probably get extinct but far from all species in this river.

Janne

[johannes]

Nice specimen from a known locality with already given L-number, could be the "Emperor" version of that number, not necessarily a different species.

So in this case, for the one posted by unungy could be the "emperor/mega crown" version of L340.
emperor or mega crown version, i believe, exist in every L-number.
Some we have not seen or some we have seen once or twice.
My theory is that the very nice L236 speciemen is the megacrown/emperor version of L236. The other or normal looking ones are just not so special.
Then another example would be the Hypancistrus sp 1. That would be the emperor/mega crown version of L129.