blue botia

[danielle's tank]

My husband bought 3 for a new tank we just set up, we also bought a lobster, a huge pleco, 4 dollars, 4 angels, 4 zebra danios, and 4 tetras(i think). so far they don't seem aggressive but i cant really tell i guess since they only come out of their tubes when there is absolutely no movement outside the tank lol. What iam wondering is if this really is a bad setup to have these fish together?
What/ How much do i need to feed them? all the petshop owner said was oh yeah they'll eat the shrimp pellets too. not much help! how many? how often? they are full grown i think probably about 5-6 inches. please help.

[MatsP]

When he identified the fish earlier, Silurus posted a link to the Loaches online datasheet:
http://www.loaches.com/species-index/ya ... ia-modesta

From that, I can gather that they still have some growing to do, and they shouldn't be hard to feed. They like quite warm water, with the middle of their recommended range is 28'C/82'F.

Your collection of fish overall seems a bit "eclectic" to say the least. I don't know what kind of tetras you have, but Angelfish will eat smaller forms such as Neons. Silver Dollars do grow to a fair size, 5-6" at least, and can put away quite a bit of food in one "sitting". They are active swimmers, so need a decent swimming space.

And "Lobster" in freshwater aquariums usually means some form of crayfish. These will sit and wait for innocent fishes to turn up close, and then quickly grab them with their claws. They are not really good "community tank" citizens - certainly tetras can be expected to "disappear" [or appear floating - "in bits"]. Of course, this assumes my guess of what lobster means is correct - but I don't know of many alternatives that are better...

Whilst zebra danios can survive in tropical temperatures, they are realistically more of a temperate fish than a tropical one, with a recommended middle temperature of 20'C/68'F. Even the highest recommended temperature is lower than the lowest recommended for your botia.

So, in conclusion, I think you should have a bit of a think as to what you actually want to keep in your tank.

It would help to understand what size your tank is, and the exact species of tetra.

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Mats

[Scleropages]

Hello. Could you please give some more information about the tank you are referring to. How many gallons is it and what is the size of the tank's footprint (L x W)? If the tank is 55gal (48" x 13") or larger, your list of fish looks good. If your tank is smaller, you really need to think about getting a larger tank soon.

As your angelfish grow, they might wind up eating the tetras (if they are a smaller variety). The blue botia (orange finned loach) may also eat smaller fish. However, if you keep them well fed, they typically don't try to eat larger tetras (congo, diamond, black), barbs, etc.

Assuming you are doing regular partial water changes (~25%) every two weeks, you can feed your fish once every day. I would feed about a teaspoon full of flake food and then drop in around 10 pellets and see how long it takes for them to get eaten. If more than 2 minutes, don't feed any more. If more than 5 minutes, take the uneaten food out. If it's all gone in 10 seconds, add the same amount again and observe and continue as necessary.

At first, the loaches (botia) might not go for it. Give them some time to adjust to their new environment. They should start eating the shrimp pellets within a week. You can also supplement their diet with live or frozen blackworms, frozen black worms, frozen blood worms, live or frozen brine shrimp. If you feed zucchini to your pleco, your loaches will probably eat it as well.

Depending on the species of pleco you have, you may need to supplement it's diet with other foods/wood.

[danielle's tank]

yeah getting frustrated with my husband and the shop owner a little all i wanted was more goldfish to fill the 20 gallon tank he bought instead of a new filter for my 2 gallon. when she said she had none and nothing that could survive with them my husband and her started shopping (i would have waited the week or two and gone back) and she said that everything would live together. i cant even honestly tell you what the temperature is as she sold us the heater and said that it was already set to the right temperature for the fish that had been living in that tank ( i believe it was the botia tank as we bought the only fish in it and it would have been empty) and we have yet to pick up a thermometer. so far nothing has died or disappeared but we have only had the tank about 10 days. here is a pick of what i think she said was the tetra and the zebra danio is also in the pic.

[MatsP]

The fish on the lower right looks like Melanotaenia praecox, Neon Dwarf Rainbowfish - for identifcation purposes, it's not a super photo, so I may be wrong [I'm not quite as good as Silurus at identifying fish from just a fin or some such]. Assuming this is at least almost right, it is not a tetra - and they should be fine with angelfish from a "being on the menu".

The silver dollars, however, will grow WAY too big for a 20 gallon tank. Add 100 gallons to make a 120 gallon tank, and you'd be a bit closer. A 75g may work at a squeeze... And it's really a bit small for the blue botias as well.

If your goal is to cover as much as possible of the world, you are currently missing Africa - however, I don't think that's a good goal for a tank... ;)

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Mats

[danielle's tank]

i am not sure what type of pico or lobster they are but here are pics of them. The lobster was hiding more than usual so it is not a very good pic.

[danielle's tank]

you are good Mats that is exactly what it is thanx she called it a neon and so it threw me off because i not knowing a lot about fish automatically thought neon tetra.

[MatsP]

The pleco is

Pterygoplichthys pardalis

, and will also outgrow your tank by a fair amount - more so than any of the other fish (they are just barely OK for the largest tanks available "ready made").

--
Mats

[sunfish]

The zebras and the neon rainbowfish are the only ones that would do well in your tank sizewise. Least suited are actually the goldfish and the pleco.

If your tank has been set up only ten days ago and you already put in all the fish without used filter material of suitable microorganisms (can you get them in the US?) watch your tank very closely and go easy with the food. Get some kind of nitrite test. If you ever see fish with purple gills (possibly breathing heavily close to the water surface) immediately change as much water as possible.

[danielle's tank]

tina, you would not believe the amount of times i had to do a partial water change since i put those fish in i was having unbelievable problems with cloudy water. I could barely see the fish and make out the plant at the back when standing right in front of the tank I thought I was going to loose all the fish! Then a few days ago I was looking at the filter instructions again and realized that it looked as though my filter was in backwards, well that fixed that problem for now anyways but I think I did two or three partial water changes in the first 10 days we had them . My husband seems to be of the school of thought that the fish only grow to the size of their tanks, how long do you think I can keep these guys in this tank before splurging for a new one? Since this 20 gallon is only 2-3 weeks old now.

[Birger]

Where (approximately) are you in Canada...you need a better fish store.... maybe we can steer you somewhere that will actually try to give you decent advice.
You could even try hooking up with a club...we have some good ones in Canada where you could get good advice and do some trading...I know some people that would not mind coming across three bigger loaches like that and hook you up with what would work for you in exchange.

Birger

[danielle's tank]

Tina,
The tank came with a bios filter, is this what you are talking about when you say micro-organism filter?
Birger,
Unfortunately I am in a small city literally in the middle of nowhere! I live 6 hours north of Saskatoon,and 8 hours north of Winnipeg. The closest larger city centers to me would be Thompson which is 4 hours to the north and Prince Albert which is 4 hours to the south Not sure if there would be any way to make a trade with somebody when we would have to travel such a large distance with the fish.

[Mod edit: on user's request, remove placename --Mats]

[danielle's tank]

Gah and now of course I am realizing that I shouldn't have said the name of my town as there is only one fish store here and I used to babysit for the owner as a teen. I am so sorry if you are reading this and realizing that I am talking about you and your fish store. In all honesty I blame it on my husband and I too, He shouldn't have picked all those fish without doing any research on them and I should have been more firm in my answer when I was saying no I just wanted goldfish. Again sorry if said owner is reading this and feeling offended at some point in time

[Scleropages]

Relax, you can edit your posts.

For all we know, it might not even be the LFS's fault. We don't know how much was communicated between your husband and the LFS.

While your husband's opinion regarding fish size is not uncommon, it is not correct and often leads to animal abuse.

As far as how long you have before you need to get a bigger tank--you need to do it ASAP or get rid of the pleco, silver dollars, and loaches ASAP. And, given enough time, that crayfish will probably eat the danios and rainbowfish. Your tank is a bit small for angelfish, long term, so you might want to think about moving them too.

[Birger]

Unfortunately I am in @%*% *^&$, a small city literally in the middle of nowhere!

hehe...I see your point!

Yes, just a quick edit and no one will ever know

Birger

[sunfish]

Cloudy water usually is not the main problem. Many fish do not have a natural habitat with crystal clear water. The real problem with new tanks is nitrite which is invisible and highly toxic to the fish.

The most important "cleaning" of the water is not done mechaically (i.e. by the sponge in the filter) but by microorganisms living on the sponge. They occur naturally, so you don't have to do anything apart from waiting. When a tank has been running for some time you will have enough of the little critters so that everything works as it should. The "waste" produced by the fish is used by a series of microorganisms, eventually resulting in fertilizer (Nitrate). This works like a chain, A uses the waste of the fish, B uses the waste of A, and so on. So when you set up a tank the single populations can only grow if there's food for them. So A will be the first. Since not many B are present the substances produced by A will build up. Then the population of B will increase and their product will build up until enough of C are there.

The last step is using Nitrite to produce Nitrate. So when you set up a tank you will eventually get a nitrite peak because the chain works up to that point but there are not enough nitrite-eaters yet. And if there are fish in the tank at this point the peak could wipe out all of them. Especially if the tank is very crowded. If you wanted to jump-start a tank you could use used filter material from another tank (amounting to about half of the filter material for the new tank). Or you could buy (living) filter-microorganisms in the shop (at least here in Germany). I don't know what a Bios-filter is.

[MatsP]

Cloudy water usually is not the main problem. Many fish do not have a natural habitat with crystal clear water. The real problem with new tanks is nitrite which is invisible and highly toxic to the fish.

I agree with the "fish can live with cloudy water". However, cloudy water may well be an indication of an inbalance in the microorganisms mentioned below.

The most important "cleaning" of the water is not done mechaically (i.e. by the sponge in the filter) but by microorganisms living on the sponge. They occur naturally, so you don't have to do anything apart from waiting. When a tank has been running for some time you will have enough of the little critters so that everything works as it should. The "waste" produced by the fish is used by a series of microorganisms, eventually resulting in fertilizer (Nitrate). This works like a chain, A uses the waste of the fish, B uses the waste of A, and so on. So when you set up a tank the single populations can only grow if there's food for them. So A will be the first. Since not many B are present the substances produced by A will build up. Then the population of B will increase and their product will build up until enough of C are there.

The last step is using Nitrite to produce Nitrate. So when you set up a tank you will eventually get a nitrite peak because the chain works up to that point but there are not enough nitrite-eaters yet. And if there are fish in the tank at this point the peak could wipe out all of them. Especially if the tank is very crowded. If you wanted to jump-start a tank you could use used filter material from another tank (amounting to about half of the filter material for the new tank). Or you could buy (living) filter-microorganisms in the shop (at least here in Germany). I don't know what a Bios-filter is.

Well presented. A more technical article on the subject of "the Nitrogen cycle" can be found here:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... cle_id=126

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Mats

[Scleropages]

Well presented. A more technical article on the subject of "the Nitrogen cycle" can be found here:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... cle_id=126
Mats

Yes, not a bad job of explaining it. Conversely, the nitrogen cycle topic can be found in any decent biology textbook.

[MatsP]

Well presented. A more technical article on the subject of "the Nitrogen cycle" can be found here:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... cle_id=126
Mats

Yes, not a bad job of explaining it. Conversely, the nitrogen cycle topic can be found in any decent biology textbook.

It does, but it generally "skips over" the details of WHY it is important in an aquarium - at least when I last studied biology - which is quite an important detail... ;)

--
Mats

[danielle's tank]

can i still use those wafers for cycling the tank now or is it too late since the fish are already in there? I feel like I need to go in and tell the LFS all this stuff I am learning. I was there when we bought the fish and we told her it was a new tank we had just gotten and all we wanted were a couple of fish to go with the goldfish. In all honesty I should have just gone myself as I would have said ok I'll be back in two weeks then. But my husband started looking and she said ANY of these on this wall will go together and she didn't stop him at any point and say hey you know you should only add a couple fish at a time to a new tank. She kept encouraging him and when I would say I was unsure about getting all these fish at once she'd say "oh goldfish are for begginers nobody likes goldfish they're dirty just bring them back here to me" and "have I ever steered you wrong before" (now to this one I could say "YES"). Needless to say I did not take back my goldfish to her they are currently enjoying their free little 5 gallon she gave me because of all my "pouting" not really wanting to take all the fish and bring back mine.

[Scleropages]

can i still use those wafers for cycling the tank now or is it too late since the fish are already in there?

It's too late...