panaque nigro spawning ??

[ElTofi]

I met a guy here (Sydney) who went on a collecting trip to the Amazon. Anything interesting he caught went to the US and Europe with other guys on his trip as we cant bring anything in. One of the things they caught was a royal type panaque in reasonable numbers on wood and on any fallen branches, usually between 2-4cm. When he asked the local guide he told him that he had found adults with many young in soft wood holes and around tree roots. I will try to track him down and see if I can get any more info. He is a cichlid guy though so......

heard about this version too... and about another saying that Panaque could possibly have migration spawning behaviour... based on the fact that most little Panaque are found far away from the places of the big ones...

a lot of theories, but nothing really checked...

[Barbie]

When I said cave, I meant enclosed area for the male to protect the eggs, not particularly a stonework type of cave. Sorry I was unclear. With their shape, I would be quite shocked to find that the male does not find an area he can defend for spawning.

Years ago I saw an easily 18" Royal (I have no idea which variety) at a shop in Wichita, KS. I realize they do not need to reach anything near their adult size to spawn, but I do think most spawning attempts are going to require large fish and there just hasn't been many people with groups of these fish in the size range necessary for success until very recently, has there?

Barbie

[rob rensen]

We'll just wait and see what happens....I have 7 Nigro's in a 2.50 tank with a lot of wood, a lot of current (8.000 ltr/hour).

Let nature do it's work

[ElTofi]

...I do think most spawning attempts are going to require large fish and there just hasn't been many people with groups of these fish in the size range necessary for success until very recently, has there?
Barbie

I'm getting close to... with the 6 fishes group of L191, between 16 and 22 cm, it won't be too long (maybe one year) to get to "maturity size"... Maybe I'm listening too much my dreams, but I think fishes of around 30 cm should be mature enough to attempt a spawning, shouldn't they ?

and I have another group of 4 Panaque schaeferi, smaller but still 15 cm TL, which could be candidates to spawning within the next 2 years...

the international "Panaque spawning" race has begun a few months ago ... several runners on the start... let's see what will happen these next months...

@Rob Rensen : good luck with your group and sorry for flooding your topic...

[rob rensen]

It doesn't matter Ettofi....

[rob rensen]

About the article....I have also my doubts. The nigro's on the picture are very small , I think too small to breed

[jac]

I met a guy here (Sydney) who went on a collecting trip to the Amazon. Anything interesting he caught went to the US and Europe with other guys on his trip as we cant bring anything in. One of the things they caught was a royal type panaque in reasonable numbers on wood and on any fallen branches, usually between 2-4cm. When he asked the local guide he told him that he had found adults with many young in soft wood holes and around tree roots. I will try to track him down and see if I can get any more info. He is a cichlid guy though so......

heard about this version too... and about another saying that Panaque could possibly have migration spawning behaviour... based on the fact that most little Panaque are found far away from the places of the big ones...

a lot of theories, but nothing really checked...

I have read/heard this too. Wasn't it at the Lnumber days in Hannover?

[HaakonH]

This may be nothing but a rumour too, but I heard/read somewhere that Royals are being bred at some farms in Asia. The climate there allows the farmers to keep their fish in large outdoor pools. The story is that they used large, more elongate containers where they created enough water flow to simulate riverine conditions as opposed to more stagnant ones like in other breeding pools. They added large chunks of wood which the Royals chewed on, creating cavities where eggs were laid.

Has anyone here received Royals from Asian suppliers?

Haakon

[nvcichlids]

my LFS has gotten some tiny royals from an asian supplier in the past year. I would say tiny being maybe 2" TL. I don't recall the supplier, but they havent ordered from them again as they lost a lot of fish in that order.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

They added large chunks of wood which the Royals chewed on, creating cavities where eggs were laid.

That would definitely be my suggestion, I save all my large holey wood for a Parrot breeder for exactly this reason. Something like a palm trunk would naturally form a circular depression as it decayed, and this would give an opening that the male could work on.

cheers Darrel

[Acanthicus]

heard about this version too... and about another saying that Panaque could possibly have migration spawning behaviour... based on the fact that most little Panaque are found far away from the places of the big ones...

a lot of theories, but nothing really checked...

I investigated several months of field operation in my theory that Cochliodon migrate in the upper riverpart to spawn. I also wrote about it in DATZ, and the answer is: Yes, they do migrate. So, I am quite sure Panaque do as well.

The idea with elongated containers is really a good one, but unfortunately not practicable here.


cheers,

[matthewfaulkner]

Here's a picture showing some sexual characteristics. You can sort of see the chubby pelvic/ventral fins and the odontodes along the body. Do you think this points to a male fish?

[Jools]

I'm not sure body odontodes point to gender in

Panaque

(by which I mean Panaque not Panaqolus and Scobinancistrus). The genital papillae seems blunt and that points to a female... I think with these guys a picture of that is the best way to tell. I am not sure of the rest.

Jools

[MatsP]

Yes, they do migrate. So, I am quite sure Panaque do as well.

Does this also mean that they spawn in the middle/late part of the rainy season when water levels are at their highest? One could expect so...

The idea with elongated containers is really a good one, but unfortunately not practicable here.

Unless you can make a very large, and quite long "river" running into the tank?

--
Mats

[matthewfaulkner]

I'm not sure body odontodes point to gender in

Panaque

(by which I mean Panaque not Panaqolus and Scobinancistrus). The genital papillae seems blunt and that points to a female... I think with these guys a picture of that is the best way to tell. I am not sure of the rest.

Jools

I agree that the body odontodes are probably inconclusive, as it seems that these fish tend to have them as a prominent feature anyway. What do you think about the pelvic/ventral fins? It's my understanding that enlarged fins point towards a male. The genital papillae is blunt and seems to pulsate a lot with a peristalsis like movement. I don't know whether that's normal or just because the fish was pooing at the time.

I hope more people can post similar pictures so we can see any similarities/differences.





And although not related to the topic, I thought I'd share his/her wood gnashers.

[ElTofi]

And although not related to the topic, I thought I'd share his/her wood gnashers.

Awesome ! really awesome ! Thanks for sharing...

[pleco_breeder]

Enlarged pelvic fins does point to male in a lot of species. I don't know if this holds true in Panaque.

Likewise, the peristaltic contractions tends to point to male. This is only an observation I've made, but it seems the genitalia of females is usually too bulbous to be able to note if any movement is taking place. I see it in males of most plecos rather often, but don't recall ever noting it on a known female. I don't think it's sexually related, but something that seems to happen quite a bit.

Larry

[Scleropages]

Unless you can make a very large, and quite long "river" running into the tank?

Or, unless you live in southern Florida and are designing your own pond. Sounds like a project for Viktor!

[MatsP]

Or, unless you live in southern Florida and are designing your own pond. Sounds like a project for Viktor!

Yes, of course in (sub-)tropical regions, you could do this as well.

--
Mats

[Jools]

Pectoral fins enlarging in Panaque I am not sure about, I come to that from my experience with

Scobinancistrus

which have the most spiny thick rayed females I have seen.

However, those ventral fins look really interesting. Crazy notion - what if these guys spawn like

Chaetostoma

...

Jools

[rob rensen]

There's is still a lot to discover about the large panaque's.....I'll hope to contribute to that issue

[rob rensen]

This is my 35cm female

[ElTofi]

[Acanthicus]

Hi Mats,

Does this also mean that they spawn in the middle/late part of the rainy season when water levels are at their highest? One could expect so...

Unless you can make a very large, and quite long "river" running into the tank?

exactly. The adults wait for the rainy season and then swim in the upper river part where they start spawning. I have lots of data about this behaviour. I observed one species in a special river for months.

I don´t think a really strong "river like" waterflow will be sufficient to stimulate some species. They need the distance which is between the upper and the lower river. Comparable to Rhinelepis.

[Jake Adams]

The size and thickness of the odondotes has a lot to do with the hardness of the water in which the fish has been grown. After noticing my blue eyes failing to develop the kind of bristles and spines they once had in my softwater aquarium, I have recently begun adding calcium and carbonate to the water.\

The rate at which new spiny tissue has grown is quite impressive, the pectoral odondotes are way thicker and the opercular whiskers are growing faster than they are falling out. So the size and shape of the odondotes is irrelevant for sexing unless you can verify the hardness of the water where the fish came from.

[rob rensen]

That's sounds very strang to me. I've never heard this before. I have several panaque's L190 (7) in one tank....the females have hardly or small odontes and the males bigger ones. The males have also odontes on their pectoral fins

They all swim in the same water

[jac]

Jake, how long have you had your Panaque's? Have you had them since small fish? Very interesting story about the odonthal growth!! Since the odonthodes are the same as the bony plates on the body of a fish, could they contain calcium? That would make your story very believable.

Rob, I don't think you have kept your Panaque's long enough to see such differences The bigger ones you have, have had a very long growing up time somewhere else. You don't know how they've been kept, in what kind of waters. As your Panaque's come from many different sources I do think that waterparameters could have a certain effect on (ondonthode) growth on the fish.

[rob rensen]

Then you should see also difference between the growth of their spoon shaped teeth. they also contain calcium.

I don't reallly believe that odontes story, i never heard it before.

[ElTofi]

what I know for sure is that the Panaque cf armbrusteri "Xingu" I had during 6 years in swiss tap water (GH around 8-12) had odontodes, depending on water conditions, stress or even food...

What I still hold for males had grown (and lost) interopercular and pectoral odontodes several times

the signal for loosing their odontodes was most of the time a too much high nitrates level... Or not enough oxygen... any major change in water parameters was sufficient for the panaque to loose their odontodes...

I had 3 specimen (no idea of the sexing) but only one developped very strong odontodes, by cycles, depending on the above mentionned criterias.

it's believable that GH could have an impact on odontodes grow, but I must refer that stressing conditions (water quality, poor feeding, temperature fluctuations, other inhabitants) do have an effect on odontodal growth...

another note I can add, based on more than 8 years observations (on Panaque xingu and the actual Panaque L191) :

Panaque only use terracota cave when there's nothing else to hide... if they find roots, sunken woods or even driftwoods, they always will prefer it as a hiding place...

I have project, as we all have, with my panaques, but I'm still navigating "in the mist", no idea of what's wrong or what could be right...

[rob rensen]

Poor feeding, bad water has influence on every fish or pleco