like big catfish? read this first!

[Bas Pels]

No offense to my friends in the UK but imo, your bureaucrats already have managed to become too involved with your hobby. In the USA, most states have passed laws restricting piranhas, rays and other fully tropical fish which pose no threat to local ecosystems and it has diminished our hobby a little and opened the door to more of the "nanny state" mentality which has become too pervasive

Actually, I think the trade is far more heavily regulated in the States than the UK. In the UK, you can import and keep pretty much any fish you like with very few exceptions (and none of the banned fish are popular anyway). One thing you aren't allowed to do anymore is use live feeder fish, and this law mostly stops kids going in a shop and buying a dozen goldfish to feed to their

TSN

, which is probably a good thing. However people feel about feeders in general, if you are discretely breeding some yourself at your own home, then you're hardly likely to get caught. Anyway, that's another issue.

Although the regulation might be the same - after all, the UK and NL are part of the EU - I know nobody in who NL feels it is wrong to feed life fish

In fact, I think such a regulation is stupid: I keep a cichlid, it breeds and another fish in the tank eats the fry. Am I quilty of cuelty? Personally I don't think so. I really fail to see the difference in the situation where the fish is not bred in the tank, but added to the tank

The only thing is, I absolutely refuse to have anybody 'enjoy' the spectacle. Because although death is part of being alive, it still is not fun - and someone who would keep fish for this spectacle is keeping them for the wrong reasons, I think

@ Margie

I'm quite certain eatring the tankbusters was not a joke. In fact, if I were not allergic to eating fish, I would have suggested it myself.

A pangasius @ 10 cm can have a good life in a 2 meter tank - but it won't be a good life when it is 40 cm. So somewhere in between the fish would better be eaten.

[sidguppy]

eat them (I think the person was kidding)

actually, this is not a bad solution at all.

eat it before it gets cramped in a too small tank.

there are several arguments for this:
-you are the one that controls the food intake, so you can in fact use the good stuff and make a healthy consumption fish

-it's far more humane to let such a fish have a good life, kill it clean and quick and eat it; then it is to let it be dragged from retailer to retailer, finally to end it's miserable life in a too small tank with polluted water and a bunch of unwanted Oscars......

-like Mike says: the majority of baby tankbusters are bred as food fish.
they are in fact "garbage"; the condumption breeders make far too many fry than their breeder and grow out ponds can handle. the surplus is then sold to the ornamental fish trade.
in a way: if we buy -for example- Pangasius, we're dealing with someone elses problem. we're paying to haul the "garbage" caused by consumption fish farms......
how's that for a solution?


catfish are among the best suitable dinner fishes; you'd be amazed that even Pleco's make a fine chow.
they can be BBQed and peeled open like lobsters; they are quite tasty.


finally: I once asked a small store and we had a discussion about this topic. why they still sold the baby Red tails and the Pangasius and such; what to do with the brought back Pleco's etc.
they told me if they have a few of those a local Chinese comes and buys them.
the Chinese guy's supposed to have a few of those indoor Koi ponds; and he or his family eats Red Tails, TSN, large Plecs and such.

[Jools]

Great thoughts all.

There is simply no need for the majority of these fish to be traded.

Don't take this the wrong way, because I am broadly in agreement with this; in my opinion, I don't think we lose much if fishes over 1m TL require zoo type licences except perhaps the introduction of extensible legislation. That's to say, as the human race empties the seas of food fish, I could see the public sentiment and the above statement being extended (pretty readily) to many if not most wild caught fishes at least by the (policy making) layman and the general public. Maybe the adjustment of it to stocked rather than traded might be better?

When the (Scottish) legislation that made it a criminal act to buy or sell cigarettes to under 16 year olds was introduced, I don't think the policy makes thought that, only a few decades later, it would extend to the removal of cigarette vending machines and smokers from pubs. This is not a point about the right or wrongs of the anti-smoking campaign. It's about the extensibility of legislation.

Rupert mentioned self regulation, and that has improved things but it's certainly not eradicated the issue (and, personal opinion, increased hybrid trading). My LFS has had dyed fish, Pangasius, Pterygoplichthys and parrot cichlids in the past couple of years. Now, OK, I don't visit there much, but to the "uninformed fishkeeper" (we need a netty term for that group) dyed fishes, hybrids etc are just something new. So I am under no illusions that the "size on the label" suggestion would totally fix the issue, but it certainly would improve things like the PFK anti-dyed campaign.

Jools

[wrasse]

Caught fresh from the river, a nice juicy RTC steak sounds great, but eating one that's too big for it's tank??? Yuk!- I'll have a salad thx

[Margie]

I would be concerned about the safety of eating hobbyist fish. I've read that some medications (malachite green for instance) can stay in the fish tissue for years and are not safe to eat. Some of the medications I use specifically say on the label that they are not to be used on fish intended for human consumption.

It's a moot point for me. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to bring myself to eat anything I'd kept as a pet.

[sidguppy]

I don't want to scare you, but...

given the state of the US food industry and what they are allowed to get away with, I think a residu of malachite green should be the least of your worries.....

I'd rather drink half a bottle of it than go anywhere near that food.....

[RickE]

It would be very interesting to get some input on this from PC members who run an LFS with their point of view.

[Scleropages]

The only thing is, I absolutely refuse to have anybody 'enjoy' the spectacle. Because although death is part of being alive, it still is not fun - and someone who would keep fish for this spectacle is keeping them for the wrong reasons, I think

Like it or not, seeing a school of piranha rip through a handful of feeder goldfish is what gets a lot of kids into the hobby. Or maybe it's watching a Pterois volitans lionfish vacuum up feeder fish after feeder fish. Don't discount that fact. If you think it's the wrong reason to get into fishkeeping, that's your opinion. But, I think it's a great thing that gets kids interested in aquarium keeping. Plus, one can learn a lot about mortality and life by keeping fish that are piscivorous by nature.

[apistomaster]

Long ago when I had a fish shop I was selective about what fish I would take in.
Oscars were one I decided to take in until i had six because I wanted to breed them but not badly enough to raise up a group of little ones. I ended up with two pairs.
I used most of their fry to feed my pet Pink tail Triggerfish. But what it really enjoyed were the crayfish i caught in local streams. Man, could it dismantle one so fast it was unbelievable.

[Shane]

Shane, the stats in that article is fraudulent, actual losses during shipment is in the single digit percentage range. That article is published by a guy who runs a campaign to completely ban all collection of marine animals in Hawaii, that he runs a company selling captive-bred fish may be a factor in it.

Good point Mike. Thanks. It is worth noting, however, that the article received play in several major US news magazines. That was how it came to my attention.

I agree with Jools (and others) on legislation creep. Remember when non-smoking areas became mandatory in restaurants? Then within a few years it became illegal to smoke in any restaurant. Now it is even illegal to smoke in bars in many states.
-Shane

[Bas Pels]

The only thing is, I absolutely refuse to have anybody 'enjoy' the spectacle. Because although death is part of being alive, it still is not fun - and someone who would keep fish for this spectacle is keeping them for the wrong reasons, I think

Like it or not, seeing a school of piranha rip through a handful of feeder goldfish is what gets a lot of kids into the hobby. Or maybe it's watching a Pterois volitans lionfish vacuum up feeder fish after feeder fish. Don't discount that fact. If you think it's the wrong reason to get into fishkeeping, that's your opinion. But, I think it's a great thing that gets kids interested in aquarium keeping. Plus, one can learn a lot about mortality and life by keeping fish that are piscivorous by nature.

precisely. It's the wrong reason and most probably the wrong people. Not the people who will take care for 20+ years of a Platydoras for instance

Still, as you thought you had to point out, that's my opinion - you are entitled to yours

[sidguppy]

I think we had a mature adult discussion, right up to the point that Sclerophagus took it upon himself to post that video

it's not only childish, its a deliberate insult to ridicule Bas for his different opinion

smearing someone because his or her way of thinking doesn't agree is a very bad form
it might be common today in politics, it has no place here.

we can do without such immature behavior, so please remove it.

[wrasse]

IMO, scleropages makes a valuable contribution to this thread as he keeps big fish. Otherwise it's too biased the other way.
We don't know how many big fish are out there being kept successfully. There must be loads of fishkeepers who are not forum members and who have huge aquaria, indoor/outdoor tropical ponds with massive filtration.

[Bas Pels]

I don't think Sclerophagus made a valuable contribution

I wrote I never show the feeding of life fish to anyone, and why - and that is where he reacted on. He did not write about keeping large fish. He did not advise how to tackle any problem, he only intended to let all people know he does not agee with my reasoning - on a very unkind way.

When I joined this forum, I was advised senseless postings were not appreciated. Back in those days his psoting would have been frowned upon.

[Jools]

On a personal level, I am not sure I see lots of kids getting into fishkeeping because they can witness live animals getting killed by other live animals as a good thing. Nature is red in tooth and claw, sure, but it teaches that nature is something we control and can do with what we like rather than the viewpoint that it's something to enjoy and nurture.

As we've strayed into this territory, let me make it clear that it's certainly not the intention of the site to condone captive live feeding for sport or facebook likes. Hopefully enough said.

However, this is a topic about big cats, and it's in danger of getting a bit heated and off-topic. So, can we keep it to that subject and avoid personal attacks and defences. Otherwise it's locks and warnings!

Thanks folks,

Jools

[Scleropages]

let me make it clear that it's certainly not the intention of the site to condone captive live feeding for sport or facebook likes. Hopefully enough said.

Watching piranhas eat feeder goldfish at the LFS is one of the things that made my friends and I more interested in getting into fishkeeping. It's a very interesting thing for a ~10 year old to see. Now, one of those friends is one of the largest marine importers on the US east coast and is doing things to try to save the ecosystems where he imports from. I am only pointing out that it doesn't necessarily bring the "wrong people" into the hobby. And that's the last I'll talk about this on this thread.

I agree with your intention, Jools. I don't condone live feeding for sport or social networking purposes. I only condone it for sustenance of fish that are piscivorous by nature. I'm sorry if I offended Bas Pels and sidguppy, and I'm sorry to see them resort to name calling again.

[apistomaster]

Some jurisdictions banned g in public areas. Once these doors are open regulation creep emboldens corporations to pick and choose who to hire. Smokers are just one of the first to feel the discriminatory effects. Other health choices are also being used.
Please let's not get into a debate about the justifications for this either way.
Just accept my statement at face value.

[Viktor Jarikov]

We don't know how many big fish are out there being kept successfully. There must be loads of fishkeepers who are not forum members and who have huge aquaria, indoor/outdoor tropical ponds with massive filtration.

I am sure you know what MFK is with their over 88,000 members (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/index.php?). Not that I disagree with the article's main points.

[MatsP]

I am sure you know what MFK is with their over 88,000 members (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/index.php?). Not that I disagree with the article's main points.

But 88000 members doesn't mean that they actually (all) have large tanks - or big fish.

--
Mats

[Viktor Jarikov]

Sure. I am not looking to impress or compare. It is what it is. But anybody who is an MFK member or a visitor can arrive at their own opinion. There is waterwolves too and Ben's predatoryfishkeepers. There are Arowana clubs, Snakehead clubs, koi clubs, and many, many others too. Point being, there exists a segment of world population who keep big fish and talk/write about it. Needless to say.

Just and only just to augment Wrasse's comment.

[Jools]

So, again, to drag this back to big catfishes, do any such debates occur on those sites that can be viewed (like here on Planet) by the general public? I ask to see if there are points made that have not as yet been raised here.



Jools

[Viktor Jarikov]

Why do you think we are OTT? or squarely OTT?
Surely such debates occur - e.g., see the obvious stickies in the obvious MFK catfish section http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... 15-Catfish.
If I am not mistaken, all of MFK is wide open to all. If not, becoming a member does not cost anyone anything, i.e., if someone was serious about researching this issue and looking at many possible sides.

I ask to see if there are points made that have not as yet been raised here.

Not off the top of my head - that's a question of humongous proportions but I think this article and the ensuing discussion touch on most major problems, although I didn't have the time to read the discussion thoughtfully and reflectively to do it justice.

(I am not promoting MFK. It is an excellent resource for me but for every MFK post I have a hundred PCF posts - that says it all.)

[Redtailrob]

Very Imotive Topic this one & one I wasnt going to comment on.
This topic always invokes a very strong reaction in aquarists & rightly so.
Who's to say though what fish someone should or shouldnt be allowed to keep?
What is a massive fish for some peoples aquaria may only be a small fish for another?
Pesonally I feel that you should have to have a license to keep ANY ANIMAL be it fish, Dog , Cat whatever!! Nothing should give us the right as Human beings to look after another animal without 1st proving our eligibilty to do so!
As this topic though is about Big Fish & big Catfish in particular I believe the onus lies mainly with the Keeper of said fish.
I truly believe 100% that for any fish that obtains a size of approaching 20" + a license should be required for you to be able to purchase & keep.
It would save the lives of hundreds if not thousands of badly kept fishes such as RTC's & TSN's etc etc. Not to be mention Knifefish, Snakeheads, Tinfoil Barbs, G -Gourami's etc
It truly doesnt help that such fish are so readily available & within the budget of such a wide range of people, most who if we're honest do not have the means or the Knowhow to be able to keep this magnificent creatures.
I too use MFK but hardy at all now, the frustration of reading "How long can I keep an RTC in a 50Gallon for" had me screming at the PC and banging my head in depsair & frustration
The whole subject is 3 fold.
It is the responsibilty of the owner to research what he or she is buying before purchase & be prepaired to to accomodate accordingly.
It is the responsibilty of the retail outlets to provide Good accurate information of what they're selling.
It is the responsibilty of the wholesaler to not sell the things in the 1st place! This is very difficult considering there is market for said fishes & they're there to make money. More of moral stand this one.
I feel that a license requirement would remove the demand for said fishes & they would no longer have a market place in the trade except for a few exceptions.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Agreeable and clear points laid out in the article.

Good input Rob.

I'd say this debate can easily be extended, without getting OTT, into capitalism vs. socialism, government vs. people, supply vs. demand, economics vs. legislature, freedom vs. legislature, order vs. anarchy, morality vs. needs, human suffering vs. animal suffering, love for animals vs. hatred for humans, education vs. brainwashing, etc. etc.

Who's to say I need to go get in line to get yet another (enforceable?) licence? Who's to say it is ok to continue looking the other way on animal suffering? Who is to say that maybe we better start with our slaughter houses and those around the world because we thank God and eat what they produce? Who is to say one of us or the whole society must spend time and energy on the fish-keeping issues like these if that takes up the resources available to help fellow human beings in need right now, dying, crying, aching?

Some may (think they) have the answers but it all very quickly leaves my head spinning, reeks of politics, and makes me say: "Sorry, I cannot contribute much to this topic, perhaps short of studying it for several years - may be a good Ph.D. thesis topic for someone."

[Shane]

It is the responsibilty of the owner to research what he or she is buying before purchase & be prepaired to to accomodate accordingly.
It is the responsibilty of the retail outlets to provide Good accurate information of what they're selling.
It is the responsibilty of the wholesaler to not sell the things in the 1st place!

Rob, All good points in your above posting. I think we only differ opinions with regard to the licensing issue. As was stated above, some of this may just be cultural perceptions. In the UK one has to have a license to own a TV while in the US one does not even need a license to own a gun (unless it is full automatic, and even that requirement is openly flaunted).
Driver's licenses, which are issued by States, were only standardized in the US in 2008, and as soon as the federal government passed this act 35 States passed laws countermanding the federal act. My point being that, in the US at least, licensing is not a potential solution.
-Shane

[Scleropages]

As was stated above, some of this may just be cultural perceptions. In the UK one has to have a license to own a TV while in the US one does not even need a license to own a gun (unless it is full automatic, and even that requirement is openly flaunted).

I agree on the cultural perceptions issue. While I may not be entirely accurate, it seems to me like the people in favor of licensing with respect to the topic of the thread are from the commonwealth of nations (UK, NZ--sorry if I'm leaving anyone out).

Regarding firearms licensure requirements in the US... it is highly variable from state to state. In Virginia, where Shane is, it is relatively easy to purchase a firearm. For instance, VA recently repealed a law that limited the number of handguns you can purchase in a 30-day period. To purchase a gun, I think they have you fill out an application, check your state issued ID, and then call the state police for a quick background check. If everything looks kosher to them, you walk out with the gun right then and there. In the peoples republik of NJ, you need to apply for your firearm ID card, get fingerprinted, and then wait 10 weeks to get that card. If you want to get a handgun (only one per month), you also have to apply for a handgun permit (1 permit = 1 handgun) which is only good for 90 days once it is issued. As an owner of several pistols, I am very familiar with this process. I bring this up to illustrate how varied the licensure process is for a right that is guaranteed by the 2nd amendment to the U.S. constitution.

Can you imagine the confusion if the US tried to implement a licensing system for all fish sold as pets? The feds would make and enforce their legislature, and then the states would be able to make and enforce their own legislature... lots and lots of money-grabbing opportunities for lawyers and politicians, most of whom know nothing about ichthyology.

You also have to consider the economic implications of implementing a licensing system for all pet fish. In today's economy, the pet trade is already hurting. There have been many "mom & pop" LFS's that have gone out of business in the past 3 or so years in my area. As a hypothetical example: if I am an average, casual fishkeeper and, all of a sudden, I have to apply for a license to buy some neons or guppies, it might have an effect on my continued interest in the hobby.

[Bas Pels]

I agree on the cultural perceptions issue. While I may not be entirely accurate, it seems to me like the people in favor of licensing with respect to the topic of the thread are from the commonwealth of nations (UK, NZ--sorry if I'm leaving anyone out).

Although I do agree there is a cultural issue here, I would say it is US and others:

US being against legislation

[apistomaster]

You sure got that right. Big difference between the USA and ever where else. Some good and some bad but we don't generally have to get licenses for most things. I don't even have to buy tags for my two spayed and vaccinated cats.
And man am I glad I live out West. I can own as many guns as I can afford. Don't happen to own one now but I will be rectifying that soon. One Walther P-99 coming up.(I like Walther semi-auto pistols). Used to own a Walther P-88. A gun so well made no one could afford it. Had a newer make Walther P-38 and was sold on the brand ever since. Bullets go where you aim them.
Hunting and fishing is a major part of our economic base here, surrounded by the Hell's Canyon/Snake River and Selway River Wilderness regions. Lions(Mountain),Wolves and Bears, Oh my! Game birds, Elk, Pronghorns, Whitetail Deer, Mule Deer, Big Horn Sheep and Moose. A Pick Up Truck without guns in the window rack probably has a broken window.

NJ sounds like a gun owners hell. Didn't think any US state had such prescriptive gun regulations as that.

MFK is different from PC and I am glad of it.
Many but not all MFK'ers like to show off their fish eating fish, eating other fish first and properly housing them properly is a different matter. But then there are some members who build 5 figure and up giant tanks for their monster fish so it takes all kinds to make this world go round.

[kruseman]

So you're saying you shoot bears?
That's terrible

[apistomaster]

So you're saying you shoot bears?
That's terrible

No, I just shoot targets and don't hunt. I am glad my buddies do hunt because they help keep me supplied with fur and feathers I use to tie my flies.
We have more than enough bears even though they are fair game. We have so many wolves now that even the Feds are shooting them from helicopters because hunters and trappers aren't filling their quota.