When to define a snub nose

powerfulpumpkins · Post by **powerfulpumpkins** » 05 Feb 2012, 12:58

Hello,
I have three zebras (have posted about them in a recent thread called my little zebra group) one of the younger ones seems quite short in the nose dept compared to others I have seen. At what point would you conclude its a snub nose and is there actually anything wrong with that ? I am thinking from a breeding aspect more than anything. Does it carry through into the young ie genetics or is this more of a growing up thing when a young fry etc?
Cheers

Sanplec · Post by **Sanplec** » 05 Feb 2012, 13:54

In my book of Ingo Seidel - Hypancistrus Fibel:
A big problem with raising young Hypancistrus species is deformations in the headarea, called in German mopsköpfigkeit.
These deformations are a problem in raising youngsters. On genetic grounds, for instance in-breeding, mopsköpfigkeit can be excluded. However, the exact reason is still not proven. Most likely it depends on the quality of the water in which the youngsters grow up in. Previously people thought the reason would be water with a lot of phosphates, which was coming from foods that were thrown in the water. So this would mean, when you change the water often, this problem would become less. Furthermore are these deformations not hereditary.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 05 Feb 2012, 23:34

I think snub nosed H. zebra come more from too much inbreeding and that their environment is not a cause.
That is why I wouldn't want to to let them breed. It could be over come in time by introducing normal and unrelated stock but with H. zebra everything takes many years to effect desired changes.

Sanplec · Post by **Sanplec** » 06 Feb 2012, 10:51

There may not be proof of it with Hypancistrus, but we've seen these things with humans and other animals. So I agree with apistomaster. However, I find it strange Ingo Seidel writes this in his book.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 06 Feb 2012, 12:33

apistomaster wrote:I think snub nosed H. zebra come more from too much inbreeding and that their environment is not a cause.

Hi Larry,

I've bred snub nosed Hypancistrus and Loricaria, the offspring are consistently normal. Although I've not done it, (yet!) , 100% of all snubnoses I've kept were bred in less than perfect conditions. That is in three cases from different breeders and in all cases they were finding it hard to look after the fishes, conditions were deteriorting and the breeding groups came to me. They then bred, with 100% normal offspring. One breeding group has now be producing normal fry for 18 months. I strongly suggest on this evidence its environmental and that's the consensus view too (at least in terms of UK and European breeders).

Have I missed some evidence that leads to the inbreeding opinion?

Jools

panaque · Post by **panaque** » 06 Feb 2012, 12:47

I disagree with the suggestion that snub nose is most likely caused by inbreeding. If this was the case then it would have to be due to a rare recessive allele, for which inbred individuals would have an increased chance of being homozygous. The fact that this condition appears to be quite common in several Hypancistrus species, including in F1 generation, would mean that this gene would have to be very common in the wild populations of all these species. This would seem very unlikely to me and certainly not the most parsimonious explanation. Just because inbreeding is known to have many negative effects in many organisms, does not mean it is responsible for all developmental defects.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 06 Feb 2012, 12:54

You guys are probably right.
I figured since they are so expensive that inbreeding was pretty common and was leading to an increased frequency of deformed fish.
I have never seen any snub nosed fish among my own lines of F1 and F2 Hypancistrus or Peckoltia species but I haven't raised H.zebra.
Maybe they are more prone to environmental conditions affecting their shape than others? I don't know why that should be the case.
My L260 are my closest analog for comparison's sake and I have yet to see any other than the typical shaped heads among my L260's.
I suspect I do not put as much effort into maintaining perfect water quality as other breeders; it would be hard to beat me when it comes to my degree of laziness.

Post by **Barbie** » 06 Feb 2012, 20:55

I disagree that they are related to inbreeding and I have disagreed for years. My initial spawns were higher in numbers of snub nosed fry, by as much as 10%. The numbers were drastically reduced when our city aquifer reduced the level of hardness they maintained our water at. At that point I was a water changing machine and I could rarely discern nitrates over 5ppm in my lightly stocked tanks. The only change was the difference in hardness. As soon as I had eggs, I would switch back to regular tap changes and the hardness out of the tap was over 300ppm. Now it is rarely over 140ppm and I only rarely see snubbies. I also use clear sided condos that I had attributed to some of the potential "injured" fry.

I have discussed numerous times with people from Europe that what they are referring to as "water quality" might actually be more accurately described as "parameters", also.

I had 4 snub nosed zebras that I had accumulated and held onto to work on spawning amongst themselves, but my rat bastich of a male has murdered half of them, so I do not know yet if they are opposite sexes. I do not expect there to be anything wrong with them genetically. The initial group I started with came from many different sources, collection groups, and even time in aquaria (my old male that started everything had been in a tank for 6 years when I bought him in 2000).

I think that paranoia and speculation has done a lot of harm to potentially viable breeding specimens for a very limited gene pool of fish. I hope someday there is rock solid evidence for or against their use as breeders.

Oh, and I have also had three snubbed L260 over the years, although none recently. One of which that was artificially hatched in a condo and did not get the benefit of dads help removing his shell.

Barbie

Bellenz · Post by **Bellenz** » 07 Feb 2012, 16:01

I just try to give the best water condition that I can for my plecos. I do at least 50% daily water change for all my pleco babies. We feed the babies once a day at night. So far, we found 6 cases of snub nose during our 5 years breeding L46.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 07 Feb 2012, 20:45

@Barbie and other H. zebra breeders,

Snub noses are not normal regardless of the cause.
Do any of you think that using artificial hatching techniques as opposed to the normal assistance the brooding males provide in helping free the fry from their egg shells may contribute to the development of the snub nosed specimens? Loricariidae egg membranes can be pretty tough. It is also very easy to damage developing embryos when they are manually handled. Something like this could induce abnormal development without harming them genetically.
I know that many breeders use artificial incubation out of fear the eggs may be eaten. Personally I prefer any fish which normally provides brood care to be allowed to do so but artificially brooded eggs/larvae do develop normally. What little experience I have using it with plecos worked but I thought the fry grew slower at first than what I consider normal for a given species but within a few weeks to a month no difference in growth was noticeable. It may be that the newly hatched plecos eat their own egg membranes as a first food? Sometimes males hold their fry inside the caves a few days longer than is necessary and my observations are that when that happens the fry are noticeably thinner than those released a few days earlier. But again, within a few weeks or month there is no detectable difference in growth. In the few times I have intervened I have never seen the snub nose phenomenon but L260 is the closest analog to H. zebra I have as a comparison. Haven't had the pleasure of breeding H. zebra yet.

powerfulpumpkins · Post by **powerfulpumpkins** » 08 Feb 2012, 18:48

Thanks for everyones feedback on this which is really interesting - clearly a great debate ! has anyone got a link to some pictures of snub nosed zebras ? I am quite sure one of mine fits the description but would like to see some pics of others if possible.
Thanks

Narwhal72 · Post by **Narwhal72** » 08 Feb 2012, 20:24

I think what Barbie is trying to say is that snubnosed fish are genetically identical to nonsnubnosed fish and that the cause is an environmental one. The trait cannot be passed on from parents to offspring. I agree that these fish would never be show quality or should be put up as good exemplars of the species but they could make good broodstock in a commercial application.

My only experience with snubnosed fish was a batch of L15's I had 3-4 years ago. Of the 30 or so fry I had from the batch 2-3 were snubnosed and I culled them out into another tank for observation and eventual disposal. The water here in Milwaukee is pretty hard and I find the harder egg shell theory a very plausible one as there are numerous instances of this same occurrence with other species (such as Apisto's).

Andy

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 08 Feb 2012, 20:25

Here's a link to our sister-site: http://www.zebrapleco.com/core/hypancis ... health.php

--
Mats

powerfulpumpkins · Post by **powerfulpumpkins** » 12 Feb 2012, 21:59

Thanks Mats,
Based on that link I would say my female is a minor snub nose.

kkorotev · Post by **kkorotev** » 07 Mar 2012, 22:39

Wow.
I've been gone too long.
There is a post on this subject I wrote 5 years ago or more. I'm not exactly sure what I said, but have just re-entered the hobby by acquiring 8 "snub-nose" zebras. I have dreamt (truly) for years of trying to prove these fish will produce "normal" fry. I see that has heretofore been done. Good. Case closed. I'll raise these 'doorstops' anyway.

Hello Barbie, Ingo, Jools, Jann and Yann and all you pioneers I've missed.

Where is Larry Vires?

Hoping all is well with you,
Kevin Korotev
Milwaukee, WI
http://www.TheLittleCornerLogoStore.com

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 07 Mar 2012, 23:54

kkorotev wrote: Where is Larry Vires?

Welcome back. I've seen some of your contributions from 5+ years bacck.

Larry is in Arizona, according to his stated location. Goes by the name "Plecobreeder".

--
Mats

Post by **Barbie** » 08 Mar 2012, 06:48

Hi Kevin! Welcome back

. I'm glad you're back into fish! I, too, have a few snubbies I want to try to spawn. I had more, grown and ready to work with, but my rat of a male just can't seem to be nice.

Barbie

Narwhal72 · Post by **Narwhal72** » 08 Mar 2012, 14:14

Nice to see another pleco breeder in my neck of the woods. Maybe we will meet at an MAS meeting sometime?
Andy

Kenneth Wong · Post by **Kenneth Wong** » 08 Mar 2012, 16:50

Hey Barbie,

interested in more, snubbers.

Post by **Barbie** » 08 Mar 2012, 17:44

I'm interested in all of your fish Ken! And Mike is here this week helping me with all the projects, so the system should be running by this weekend ;).

Barbie

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 08 Mar 2012, 20:57

kkorotev wrote:I've been gone too long.

Yes you have! GREAT to hear from you again.

Cheers,

Jools

Kenneth Wong · Post by **Kenneth Wong** » 08 Mar 2012, 22:33

Barbie wrote:I'm interested in all of your fish Ken! And Mike is here this week helping me with all the projects, so the system should be running by this weekend ;).

Barbie

Awesome!

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 08 Mar 2012, 22:57

"Mopskopf"/"Pug-head" is a fairly common deformity in fish, but as far as I know the exact cause is not known, and may be complex.
As for me personally I wouldn't breed on fish like that, I would cull them.

nvcichlids · Post by **nvcichlids** » 08 Mar 2012, 23:49

Narwhal72 wrote:Nice to see another pleco breeder in my neck of the woods. Maybe we will meet at an MAS meeting sometime?
Andy

I second this!

I have never had stub/snub nosed fish, althought I like oddities when it comes to fish, never found myself buying these as I was always afraid of the deformity passing on.

Maybe I shouldn't have passed up on the bulldog zebras that were sold for $50 last year...

TwoTankAmin · Post by **TwoTankAmin** » 09 Mar 2012, 03:06

I have had my zebras produce over 500 eggs and raised about 400 fry over a 4+ year period. The 13 parents are all wc and I got them from a gent (via Barbie) who acquired them from several sources.

In total I have have gotten fewer than 5 snubbers. I think this argues strongly against the genetic theory. I am in the camp that is is not genetic. I believe it is due to one of two potential factors. As Barbie mentioned, hard water may make the shells harder to punch through for the fry and perhaps at such a tender age damage easily can result. The other possibility is that the caves we use, unkike nature's hollows, have a lot of flat sides. It seems plausible that young zebras that are kept pressed face first against a flat surface during the initial few formative weeks may contribute to a flat face.

Barbie- I still have one snubber- I can bring it to the Cat Convention for you this year if you are going.

Post by **Barbie** » 09 Mar 2012, 05:48

Yes please, I intend to make it to the convention come hell or high water.

Does that mean you're going to come to the convention this time TTA?

Barbie

logistics · Post by **logistics** » 10 Mar 2012, 18:09

I know this is my first real post, but of research of this fish for almost 17 years now and being lucky enough to have kept and bred them for almost 10 years and many spawns, I think I will have to agree with TwoTankAmin. This issue seems to be environmental and not genetic. This appears to be a water quality / hardness issue.

Also one more issue that could come into possibility is the fact that we are providing these fish with a nearly perfect environment in captivity whereas in the wild the clutch numbers would be much smaller, allowing the male to more easily trim the egg shell away. In such perfect and well fed conditions the clutch size I believe would be much larger. And in relation to the size of the fish, and the size of the males mouth, making it more of a challenge to tend to a larger clutch size.

I have kept and raised these fish in very hard Midwest water without adding any salt to the adult breeding tanks I have for fear of upsetting the breeding cycle. The breeding results that I have proven are that of chance that up to 10% or thereabouts of my fish are snubnosed to some degree.

Some spawns are 100% perfection. Some spawns are a few here and there, it's really hit or miss. My snub nosed rate is far higher than that of TwoTankAmins, my fish are WC and I would suspect that this is because of water quality and or hardness.

Despite this issue, I continue on not micromanaging my tanks and try to provide a very stable environment for the fish. I believe large changes in any regard to the disciplined way that I have been exceedingly successful in raising / breeding these fish I have, could be very bad. Hence I do not feel the need to really change anything.

However, that being said, I am always open to new thoughts and ideas. It's obvious some on here have more Zebras than I and also have had exceedingly high rates of success.

This thread has been a nice eye opener, it's nice to see the thoughts.

~D

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