Lophiobagrus brevispinis Breeding tank.

[CatWhat]

I finally got a proper breeding tank setup for my L.brevispinis to breed in. I have 8 in a 30 gallon and a couple of them paired off in the past a spawned but never got any fry out of it. So I decided to take out one male and two female and place them in a breeding tank. Once they breed I will take the females out and take the male out once the fry become to much for him to keep them in the cave/PVC pipe. Here are some pics.

[sidguppy]

it's looking good, but you really should remove the wood....

Lophiobagrus is a Tanganyikan fish; it needs hard, alcalic water and bofwood tends to soften water and lower the pH

better use limestone or something similar

also; some kind of backpanel will make the fish feel less shy; it can just be a sheet of black plastic ducktaped to the backpanel on the outside
;)
plenty good enough for a breeding tank.

but any kind of 'wallpapering' the back (and sides) of a tank is better than none.

old tricvk in my book: cap those pipes and fill em halfway with sand!
the pair or male will dig out the sand and he'll wnd up with a 1-way cave.

in a tunnel such as you have now they will hide, but very unlikely breed

another trick and it'll up the hardiness as well is using large seashells; the kind that had a snail in em, not a bivalve.
about size, the same size people use for breeding Altolamprologus, not the small ones used for occies or multies.

they can and do breed in large shells too, especially if the opening is halfway in the sand.

they glue their eggs in the back of said çave'; since a tunnel doesn't have a back end, they won't use it to breed

[CatWhat]

Thanks for the pointers. I had a hard time finding end caps for the pipe in my 30 gallon so I used slate rocks to cap off the end of the pipe. But I might have better luck finding end caps for this PVC pipe, but if not would using small pieces of slate work aswell.
Yes I definatly have to get something for the back, even just for the facted the window is right behind it so I need something to prevent a huge algae break out ( lesson learned from the 30 gallon which is right next to it ).
I could replace the wood with a rock of sorts. I put it in there to break the flow from the filter a bit. I wanted good circulation in the tank but in turn it blows around the sand a good bit. But perhaps I could use on of the rocks in my vast collection to do the same thing.
So I guess it is just a waiting game after I get those items taken care of. There is a more mature female in the 30 gallon, but I couldn't get her at the time I was cleaning the tank. I am feeding them frozen Mysis shrimp and sinking pellets.

[Oliver D.]

Hi,

the best way to breed my Lophiobagrus cyclurus are half coconuts with only one hole, large enough for the male. I have tried some other caves, but everytime they prefer the coconuts.
The coconuts have the same effect like wood, as posted by sidguppy. So I use only old coconuts, which was for 1 or 2 years in an other tank. The discharge of humic acid to the water is much lower than in fresh coconuts.

It works fine:




(The visible site stands normaly to the sand, but I´ve need some photos for an german breeding report. )

[CatWhat]

I found that mine bred in a terra cota pot and underneath some drift wood in the 30 gallon. But I did pick up a few caps for the pipe in the breeding tank along with some black backing for the tank itself. I still wonder if I should to to catch the more mature female and place her in the breeding tank and remove one of the females that is already in there.

[Taratron]

So cute! I wish we could get these in the states!

[TheCichlidKid15]

anybody selling any of these?

[CatWhat]

Ok I added the pipe with the end caps on them, put on the black backing and I added the more mature female. So I guess now it is just to wait.

[sidguppy]

Patience, young Jedi
;)

[CatWhat]

I noticed today that I can only see one female and one male. So I'm assuming the other female is in the pipe with the male. I did take a quick panic look around the tank to make sure she didn't jump out, but I didn't find anything. I did have them in pretty good breeding condition in the 30 gallon together and that more mature female was somewhat gravid. So hopefully they are going to spawn, should I take out the other female? I don't what to disturbe them though too much. I guess I could take both females out once the male kicks her out of the pipe.

[Taratron]

Any news of eggs or fry yet? Does anyone know of a breeder in the US?

[CatWhat]

Just cleaned the breeding tank and to my unexpected surprise 20 or so fry!!!! I put the fry in a 3 gallon tank just so I have some time to get the parents out of the breeding tank. So tonight I'll get the parents out and transfer the fry back into the 10 gallon. I'm going to take my time adding the fry back into the other tank, probably float them for a good while. I would say they are about 3 weeks old, they look like miniature versions of the parents.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

the best way to breed my Lophiobagrus cyclurus are half coconuts with only one hole, large enough for the male. I have tried some other caves, but everytime they prefer the coconuts. The coconuts have the same effect like wood, as posted by sidguppy. So I use only old coconuts, which was for 1 or 2 years in an other tank.

I don't know anything about Lophiobagrus, but I can confirm that coconut shells themselves are inert, and don't have any effect on pH or hardness. They are basically 100% lignocellulosic materials (lignin, pentosan and cellulose) and are incredibly hard. In fact even if you can't get all the coir fibres off, they aren't going to have much effect on water conditions.

I would actually say that you can also ignore the softening effects of wood in "Tanganyikan" tanks, the water should be so hard and buffered that the addition of the humic acids from wood is going to have very little effect on dKH or pH.

I've done some experiment with our tap water (about 17dKH) and the only humic substance that had any significant effect on water parameters was sphagnum peat, presumably because of its very high CEC and all the cation exchange sites initially having a proton (H+ ion) present.

Even here a large volume of peat is required to soften a small amount of tap water.

cheers Darrel

[CatWhat]

I started a new brine shrimp culture last night, I want to bulk up the fry before I move them back into the bigger rearing tank. Thry all seem to be doing fine so far. Very active once the lights go out like their parents. I have been feeding them finely crushed flakes while the BBS get going. going to do daily water changes while they are in the 3g.

[Richard B]

Hi all,

the best way to breed my Lophiobagrus cyclurus are half coconuts with only one hole, large enough for the male. I have tried some other caves, but everytime they prefer the coconuts. The coconuts have the same effect like wood, as posted by sidguppy. So I use only old coconuts, which was for 1 or 2 years in an other tank.

I don't know anything about Lophiobagrus, but I can confirm that coconut shells themselves are inert, and don't have any effect on pH or hardness. They are basically 100% lignocellulosic materials (lignin, pentosan and cellulose) and are incredibly hard. In fact even if you can't get all the coir fibres off, they aren't going to have much effect on water conditions.

I would actually say that you can also ignore the softening effects of wood in "Tanganyikan" tanks, the water should be so hard and buffered that the addition of the humic acids from wood is going to have very little effect on dKH or pH.

I've done some experiment with our tap water (about 17dKH) and the only humic substance that had any significant effect on water parameters was sphagnum peat, presumably because of its very high CEC and all the cation exchange sites initially having a proton (H+ ion) present.

Even here a large volume of peat is required to soften a small amount of tap water.

cheers Darrel

This is good info Darrel - probably worthy of wider note, as opposed to being somewhat hidden away in this thread.

Back to the topic in hand - good results on the breeding - well done - seems there is a good potential market in NA & Canada...

[CatWhat]

The fry are doing well so far. I added a piece of pipe, tiny terra cotta pot and some Java Fern just so they have some things to hide under. They are staying huddled up digging out small hallows with their heads and every now and then disperse to explore the tank. I have been feeding them BBS, but I'm wondering what strategies are used when feeding them? I know the adults I have will take food anytime of the day, but primarily when the lights are off.

[racoll]

I would actually say that you can also ignore the softening effects of wood in "Tanganyikan" tanks, the water should be so hard and buffered that the addition of the humic acids from wood is going to have very little effect on dKH or pH.

Why I agree with your statement, it will obviously depend on the initial alkalinity of the water, which in this case, we do not know.

Regardless, I still wouldn't add wood to a Rift Lake tank. It will certainly increase the organic content of the water, and while I don't have any proof of its effects on the fish, seeing as the wood is serving no useful purpose, I wouldn't personally take the risk even with well buffered water.

[sidguppy]

if the risk of softening the water is minimal, it's still not a good idea

because the wood will leach organic compounds in the water and no Rift fish will be happy with those, regardless of changes to pH or hardiness

my experiences with tanganyikans are that even if they're not harmed by it, they still do better if you avoid wood altogether.


about feeding:
you can feed the youngsters any time of the day or night, but if you dim the light they will come out faster

there's something else: they do not feed the first few days, even after "coloring up".

when hatched the young are a translucent glassy grey.
then while the yolk sac disappears and all the fins develop, they turn dark

they still don't feed but mill around in a tight ball.
after a few days they start to swarm and this is the time to start feeding

BBS is very good, you can also use micro worms, but beware of the organic compound issue.
once they start eating, you can add finely crumbed flake and cyclops.

it's better to feed small portions a few times than to dump all in 1 go.

check the catelog for fry pics; I have put in pics of the 'swarm phase" so you can see what it looks like.

http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/im ... ge_id=4447

[CatWhat]

Thanks for the pointers. This morning several of the fry were swimming frantically around the tank so I gave them some more BBS. But the majority of the group are still in their dug out hallow under a rock. Hopefully I will start seeing all of them come out for feeding.

[CatWhat]

Everyone was out last night with full pink stomachs. Now just to bulk them up while they are in the smaller rearing tank and continue doing 50% water changes per day.

[CatWhat]

Here are a couple of pics of the new arrivals, well some of them anyway. I'm sure the others are hiding under their rock. I'll try to get some more as time goes on.

[MatsP]

They look very cute!

--
Mats

[dw1305]

Hi all,

if the risk of softening the water is minimal, it's still not a good idea, because the wood will leach organic compounds in the water and no Rift fish will be happy with those, regardless of changes to pH or hardiness ....my experiences with tanganyikans are that even if they're not harmed by it, they still do better if you avoid wood altogether.

I'm not advocating putting wood into tanks for L. Tanganyika fish, but if it was a case of not having anything suitable to act as cover, cave or hiding place for a benthic fish, I would have absolutely no problem with putting wood in until I could find a more biotope appropriate material for caves and over-hangs.

In this case you can regard coconut shell itself as totally inert, it is made of "wood", but it is so hard and lack in soluble compounds that this is really irrelevant. You can thing of it like the difference between a clay and its fired form as a ceramic.

In this analogy coconut shell = pottery.

Why I agree with your statement, it will obviously depend on the initial alkalinity of the water, which in this case, we do not know.

In terms of water chemistry Lake Tanganyika is a pretty strange, and if the water was low enough in proton (H+ ion) acceptors for the addition of the weak acids (H+ ion donors) (from wood) to make any difference, I would suggest that the water is already unsuitable.

These are the lake chemistry figures (from Brichard's "Fishes of Lake Tanganyika"):
Na2CO3 125
KCl 59
KNO3 0.5
Li2CO3 4
CaCO3 30
MgCO3 144
Al2(SO4)3.18H2O 5
K2SO4 4
Na2SO4 1
FeCl3.6 H2O 0.5
Na3PO4.H2O 0.4
Na2SiO3 13.5

Which you could loosely replicate with a ratio of: 4(NaHCO3):2(KCl):4(MgCO3):1(MgCO3+CaCO3)

cheers Darrel

[sidguppy]

Grats on the fry!
they're feeding well by the look on them

you can start trying cyclops (from the freeze), just mix it in with the BBS

in my experience completely switching between foods doesn't work well, but you can get them used to other food by mixing it in and gradually change the proportions over some time.

it's advisable at this size to keep BBS on as at least a part of the diet.

but you can add cyclops, cyclopeeze, finely crumbled flake etc in small proportions

the most important thing now is waterquality.

[racoll]

Why I agree with your statement, it will obviously depend on the initial alkalinity of the water, which in this case, we do not know.

In terms of water chemistry Lake Tanganyika is a pretty strange, and if the water was low enough in proton (H+ ion) acceptors for the addition of the weak acids (H+ ion donors) (from wood) to make any difference, I would suggest that the water is already unsuitable.

I didn't make this clear. I meant the OP's aquarium water, rather than that of Lake Tanganyika.

[CatWhat]

I have to say I do not have any experience with cyclops or know anything about starting a culture or what not, could anyone help with that? I'll have to take a look around to the LFS's has I'm not sure of the cyclops. I might be able to find the freeze dried/frozen.
I am doing daily water changes while they are in the smaller rearing tank. After a couple of weeks I'm going to transfer them to a larger one. Thank you for the help.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I meant the OP's aquarium water, rather than that of Lake Tanganyika

Point taken, but I think we are talking at cross-purposes. My point was that if the small volume of organic acids from the addition of wood is enough to overwhelm the carbonate buffering and alkalinity of the OP's water, the water is already unsuitable. As the OP had obtained Lophiobagrus brevispinis, with the aim of breeding them, I assumed that they were happy with the suitability of their water for these fish, and had some idea of its parameters. The other point is that Lake Tanganyika's water is pretty strange, and for example whilst I have something close to Lake Malawi come out of the tap (but a bit colder), not many people will have anything close to Lake Tanganyika (possibly unless they live in N. Island New Zealand?)

Coconuts
The coconuts are a slightly different argument, in this case they obviously work, and whilst it is a good idea to keep wood out of tanks for fish from Lake Tanganyika, (for all the reasons stated) you don't need to regard coconuts as wood, they are entirely insoluble and inert.

Cyclops

I have to say I do not have any experience with cyclops or know anything about starting a culture or what not, could anyone help with that? I'll have to take a look around to the LFS's has I'm not sure of the cyclops.

You can culture Cyclops, and other copepods, in a similar manner to Daphnia, but they are much less productive. Cyclops are usually preferred to Daphnia as a food source as they contain much higher levels of carotenoid pigments (these are the pigments that make Shrimp, Salmon, flamingoes etc. pink), proteins, lipids and HUFA.

If you find a source of Copepods, you can add them, some live plants (I use Ceratophyllum normally) and organic matter (filter mulm is ideal) to Daphnia culture, and then allow the pH to decline naturally. The Daphnia production will fall off, but a steady stream of Copepods and Ostracods should be available. For a fish like Lophiobagrus, I would assume you would really want a benthic species of Copepod, although they may eat Ostracods. Most literature suggests that fish aren't keen on Ostracods, but that certainly hasn't been my experience.

I got my original Daphnia/Ostracod/Copepod culture from my garden pond, but they may be available commercially.

An easier option is to feed your Daphnia with Astaxanthin powder (a carotenoid pigment from the Green Alga, Haematococcus pluvialis), gram flour, yeast and paprika, this makes them very red in colour and at least gives the illusion that they are of higher nutritional value.

I culture/have cultured all sorts of things, but the ones that I would regard as both easy and productive, in ascending size order, are Walter or Banana worms, Micro worms, Grindal worms, Daphnia and Red Worms. I also have semi-domesticated sources for Rotifers, Mosquito larvae (including Chironomids), Baetid May-fly larvae and Asellus.

If you have more time (or a fish house) BBS become a viable option.

If you interested in growing your own fish food, I would strongly recommend Mike Hellweg's book, "Culturing Live Foods".

cheers Darrel

[Taratron]

I'd just like to add that Mike Hellweg is an awesome guy; he was a speaker for us at a killifish convention and he's rather down to earth and humble, even when signing books.

Is there any good way to sex L brevispinis other than just waiting for the fry to show up? Will they use bamboo caves if one end is closed?

[CatWhat]

The males have a much wider head, easy to see when viewed from above. I think they would breed in any type of cave really, I have had mine breed under dift wood even.They will even make their own caves by digging under rocks, wood etc.. I have the best luck with PVC pipes with ends caps.

[Taratron]

What's the best way to determine if they are breeding? I don't want to tear the tank apart or dig through the caves but I also don't want to find some dead ones if I don't keep on top of them!