If you could do anything...

[Nik_Boyd]

Hi All

I used to post on here quite a few years ago now when I was a student...then real life caught up with me!

Anyway, I'm now in a position now to fit a new freshwater aquarium in my house - its going to be custom built and therefore I can design it exactly as I want. And therein lies the problem - there are so many variations of everything from filters to lights that I don't know where to start!

SO my question is - if you could start again and design everything, what would you do? I know its a very broad question, would just be interested to see what people have learnt from experience and what could make life a lot easier.

Extra info: The new tank is going to be approx W48" X D24" x H18" and will house a variety of catfish and larger chichlids.

Thanks!

Nik

[MatsP]

Fish don't really care much about lights (as a general rule), that's more for plants (and the owner's ability to see the fish!). I use cheap lighting from Wickes - around £10 for a 4ft unit. But if you want a heavily planted system, you may need a bit more lighting. Not the right person to advice on that, I'm afraid.

Your tank will be about 340 liter (75 imp.gal), which is a nice size. I have three tanks that are same base area, but slighly lower - two of them are 16" and one is 15" high.

Ideally, a sump filtration system has two huge advantages:
1. The volume of water is noticably bigger.
You can easily add around 100 liter as a sump. Most of the sump system isn't very expensive - you just need a decent size glass or plastic tank, some separator sheets [glass in a glass tank, plastic in a plastic tank], and the filter media. You do need a return pump, which may be about £100, and some pipework to get the water out of the main tank into the sump.


2. Huge volume of filter media.
No problems with "not enough filtration capacity".

A third potential benefit is that you can do automatic waterchanges via an overflow on the sump.

Beyond that, it's pretty much "whatever you like".

--
Mats

[Nik_Boyd]

Its interesting you support the sump in freshwater tank idea - I've spoken to quite a lot of people who think they are only necessary in marines, but IMO seems a much more sensible and cost effective solution, especially compared to the price of some of the newer Eheim units.

Been out looking at a Seashell Aquariums 'Phoenix Range' today - look very well built from what I can see, I'd be interested to know if anyone has experience with them.

Lighting wise, I can't plant the tank at all as my Severum will eat it. All of it. consequently, lights are purely for me being able to see them. I'm toying with the idea of LEDs - expensive set up cost but theoretically much lower running costs, does anyone know if they work out in any way cost effective over their lifetime VS changing 4 tubes every 6 months or so?

Thanks

Nik

[MatsP]

Sump filtration is definitely a good way to go in my book (assuming it's going to work out from a practical perspective).

The Seashell tanks are the ones sold by Maidenhead aquatics, right? They are good tanks. I've bought a few tanks from the company Seabray, which from what I understand, is run by the father of the owner of Seashell. They are nice tanks.

My most recent four tanks (and probably last for a while, as I haven't really got any more space) comes from a small company in Accrington, called Barlows aquatic trading. They are perhaps not quite as fancy as

If you buy tubes from a lighting specialist rather than the LFS, the prices are much better. I bought 12 (6 + 6) tubes of 4ft and 5ft lengths, and it cost less than £40. I think prices have gone up a bit, but it's still A LOT better than the prices in the fish-shop. When photographing the "before & after" photo of my RIO400 tank with two Arcadia Freshwater Lamp, you can't tell the difference. I bought "865" specification tubes, the 8 means the tube has a 85% colour rendering index [meaning, they cover roughly 85% of the spectrum - the orange street lamps would be very low (1%) [which is why an RAC van looks almost the same as a white, and you can't tell the difference between a blue and a green car], incandescent lamps are 100%]. The 65 is the "kelvin rating", a low kelvin rating is red/orange/yellow in colour, a high kelvin rating is tending towards the blue. The 865 tubes are called "daylight" they are pretty neutral in the colour. With this in mind, spending a lot of money on LED lighting doesn't seem that great an option.

--
Mats

[racoll]

If you buy tubes from a lighting specialist rather than the LFS, the prices are much better. I bought 12 (6 + 6) tubes of 4ft and 5ft lengths, and it cost less than £40. I think prices have gone up a bit, but it's still A LOT better than the prices in the fish-shop. When photographing the "before & after" photo of my RIO400 tank with two Arcadia Freshwater Lamp, you can't tell the difference. I bought "865" specification tubes, the 8 means the tube has a 85% colour rendering index [meaning, they cover roughly 85% of the spectrum - the orange street lamps would be very low (1%) [which is why an RAC van looks almost the same as a white, and you can't tell the difference between a blue and a green car], incandescent lamps are 100%]. The 65 is the "kelvin rating", a low kelvin rating is red/orange/yellow in colour, a high kelvin rating is tending towards the blue. The 865 tubes are called "daylight" they are pretty neutral in the colour. With this in mind, spending a lot of money on LED lighting doesn't seem that great an option.

I agree entirely. I would never buy LFS lamps again. 865s are great, and incidentally, they grow plants as well as any "aquarium" tube.

Having said that, your choice of light may be determined by what the purpose of the tank is. If the tank is for display in the living room, for example, I would not hesitate to go for LED. It really makes such a difference to the appearance of the tank, with the shimmering "glitter lines". I think LED has come down in price a lot recently, so it pays to shop around and see what's on offer.

[apistomaster]

I use wet/dry filters which I made myself on my 75 gal and 125 gal.
I know that planted tank specialists do not recommend them but I have my 125 gal set up as a planted Tetra tank and my plants are doing fine.
I run large wet/dry filters with each equipped with a MagDrive 9.5 water pump. These are rated at 950 gph at zero head but they have very little loss at a head height of about a meter.
I also run a canister filter in conjunction with my wet/dry filters. The combination has always worked well for my wild Discus. I always have kept my wild Discus in these tanks but it has been nice to have one large planted show tank for a change. I hadn't set up a big show tank for small fish in ages.

[PseudaSmart]

The advice given so far is top notch! I have been running a 125gal heavily planted tank with a sump and wet/dry for 10 years and it has worked out great. As Mats mentioned the extra capacity helps, especially when you get the urge for just one more fish. I also run a small canister filter for the times I have messy eaters, the bottom intake helps keep the debris down.

Jim

[L number Banana]

Hi All

SO my question is - if you could start again and design everything, what would you do? I know its a very broad question, would just be interested to see what people have learnt from experience and what could make life a lot easier.

Nik

If I could do it over, I'd have many more smaller single species tanks and only one large community tank.
- Be less fanatical about water changing and more enthusiastic about creating and maintaining a closed system that *generally* keeps it's own balanced ecosystem. Please note the stars!! My system ain't perfect, stable but not perfect.
- Keep better notes.

[Nik_Boyd]

Thanks for all your comments, very useful!

I have quiet a lot more information now about the kind of thing we're thinking about. Having spoken to my LFS at length today they are getting me prices on a custom size 'Pheonix' tank. I've properly measured the available space I'm getting 48 * 24 * 24 and 54 * 24 * 24 priced up. They are also getting me prices for braceless versions of both sizes. What are peoples opinion on braceless tanks? Assuming the only real advantage is not having annoying bits in the way for maintenance?

It is a living room display tank so the light effect from LED would be nice. The market seems to be flooded with LED now, does anyone have experience using it and can recommend the best brands to look at?

Something else I've thought about, would there be any benefit to having some fast growing plants in the sump to improve overall water quality and oxygenation levels?

Cheers

Nik

[MatsP]

If you can get a tank that doesn't have a middle brace, that's great for when you need to catch fish - but braces at the long and short sides aren't really a problem - just cosmetic if you run tanks with no hood/lid. All my tanks have bracing except the RIO400 (which has two plastic cross-bars, so catching fish is "fun" - fortunately, they do often hide in the corners when chased...)

--
Mats

[racoll]

What are peoples opinion on braceless tanks? Assuming the only real advantage is not having annoying bits in the way for maintenance?

The point of rimless/braceless is purely cosmetic. If you will be running the tank with a hood, there is absolutely no point in the extra expense, as you cannot see the benefits, which are the clean uninterrupted lines together with a suspended pendant style lamp arrangement. This kind of setup looks a hundred times better than your regular, ugly tank and wooden cabinet job. However, an open top tank will need regular topping up, and you'll need to be certain your fish aren't going to be jumping out at night.

Bear in mind also that rimless/braceless needs much thicker glass, and as a result the glass can develop a strong green tint (regular, cheap glass not being particular clear), so most people go for an opti-white rimless/braceless tank ($$$).

[2wheelsx2]

I'd go 4 foot acrylic. 2 feet wide at least, which makes it probably a standard 120 gallon over here. Preferably 4'x 3'. Drilled and sumped. LED lighting that's on a controller and dimmable. Narrow tanks are just so limiting. And glass (unless you go Starphire) has that green tint, as explained. The sump would get everything out of the tank. Overflow would get rid of my current surface scum problem (all tanks on canister filters).

[sidguppy]

if I could get away with it, an indoor pond would be my absolute dream

and sump filtration, yesI've had a sump for years now and for large tanks it's the way to go.

since we're dreaming, getting my hands on Madagascar non-cichlid fish would be the icing on the cake, especially the catfish

and then breeding them!


but i'll settle for a 10-12 foot tank in the near future!

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Something else I've thought about, would there be any benefit to having some fast growing plants in the sump to improve overall water quality and oxygenation levels?

Yes it would, planted "wet and dry" filters are the "Rolls-Royce" of filters and have immense biological filtration potential.

With apologies for the cross-post, but have a look here: <http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19431> & <http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829>.

cheers Darrel

[Nik_Boyd]

but i'll settle for a 10-12 foot tank in the near future!

I think the mention of anything around that size would be met with scowls at best...maybe full blown rage.

Darrel - thanks for the links, confirmed what I thought was gonna be the case. Do you have any diagrams showing a wet/dry planted sump? want to make sure everything is glued in the right place for optimum use first time.

Been doing a bit of research on LED lighting - if anyone has experience with it - more questions...

TMC Aquaray/Aquagro GroBeam things look pretty good, neat unit (not that your gonna see it anyway but it should be easy to put under the hood) Has anyone used one?

Also, I've read in a couple of places that LED units, especially the panel/plate type require decent ventilation so that they don't overheat. The back of the hood will be open anyway and have a glass slide lid under it. Would this be sufficient or would I need to think about having slots in the top of the hood a well, or some kind of fan cooling?

Thanks

Nik

[Alisana]

As odd as it sounds... I want an aquarium big enough for me to swim in >_>

I personally think it'd be pretty cool...

Ideally, I'd love to have an indoor pond or moat, with the level below having viewing windows.

But won't be able to afford that any time soon!

Realistically, probs a 7 or 8 foot by 2 by 2; or by 3 by 3. That I can afford (the 7x2x2 or 8x2x2), the x3 still a bit expensive.

[Alisana]

What are peoples opinion on braceless tanks? Assuming the only real advantage is not having annoying bits in the way for maintenance?

The point of rimless/braceless is purely cosmetic. If you will be running the tank with a hood, there is absolutely no point in the extra expense, as you cannot see the benefits, which are the clean uninterrupted lines together with a suspended pendant style lamp arrangement. This kind of setup looks a hundred times better than your regular, ugly tank and wooden cabinet job. However, an open top tank will need regular topping up, and you'll need to be certain your fish aren't going to be jumping out at night.

Bear in mind also that rimless/braceless needs much thicker glass, and as a result the glass can develop a strong green tint (regular, cheap glass not being particular clear), so most people go for an opti-white rimless/braceless tank ($$$).

^ If not using a hood/lid, be prepared to do daily top-ups. Be cautious of jumping fish. And treat with care to balance the weight as it's not braced, so ensure that lights, furniture, etc don't 'bow' it. (Most should have thicker glass though, but always a risk)

[racoll]

Been doing a bit of research on LED lighting - if anyone has experience with it - more questions...

TMC Aquaray/Aquagro GroBeam things look pretty good, neat unit (not that your gonna see it anyway but it should be easy to put under the hood) Has anyone used one?

Those lights are high-end units for plant growth. You won't be growing plants, so I would look at much cheaper options (possibly DIY something).

See http://www.thelightbulbshop.co.uk/Shop/ ... ightBulbs/ for some ideas.

[matthewfaulkner]

Another thing to consider with brace/rimless tank (if keeping it open topped) is the increased humidity in the room. I've had to use a dehumidifier unit to keep the room 'dry', which is a considerable cost to run. Having had one for a couple of years now (a 120x60x45cm) I wouldn't do it again. Admittedly they are very nice aquariums but I think are only necessary if you wanted a 'perfect' aquarium, but that's the point "If you could do anything..."

[2wheelsx2]

Another thing to consider with brace/rimless tank (if keeping it open topped) is the increased humidity in the room. I've had to use a dehumidifier unit to keep the room 'dry', which is a considerable cost to run. Having had one for a couple of years now (a 120x60x45cm) I wouldn't do it again. Admittedly they are very nice aquariums but I think are only necessary if you wanted a 'perfect' aquarium, but that's the point "If you could do anything..."

The way around this is to have a fitted glass top which is on only when you are asleep/not home. I know someone who does this and it works quite well. I certainly wouldn't want to do one, but this person has multiple tanks in his place, among which are a 120 and a 180 gallon, all open top. I wouldn't do that myself, as I wouldn't want to deal with the humidity, but for my smaller tanks, I do run open top without problems, but I don't live in a place with high humidity in the summer.

[2wheelsx2]

Those lights are high-end units for plant growth. You won't be growing plants, so I would look at much cheaper options (possibly DIY something).

See http://www.thelightbulbshop.co.uk/Shop/ ... ightBulbs/ for some ideas.

Absolutely true. I know someone using 4x XG Optima tiles on an 8 foot 400 gallon and since his tank is not planted, he is running them at about 40% max with the multi-controller. For a fish only tank, the Aquaray are overkill.

[racoll]

I the only thing I would worry about it going DIY LED, would be issues with waterproofing, and making sure the colour temperature wasn't horrible.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Do you have any diagrams showing a wet/dry planted sump? want to make sure everything is glued in the right place for optimum use first time.

I don't because I always had over-tank filters, they were in the lab. so noise wasn't such a big issue. The smaller tanks I have in the teaching lab now have external filters as the above tank trickle filters were too noisy (These were "Henri DeBruyn" wet/dry filters).

Like these:


This is another one, although Anubias is a strange plant to use:


Marine keepers use planted sumps, so something like this would do:

but you could put the plants where you like really. I might be tempted to just have Pistia, as it can make use of atmospheric CO2. I've got plenty spare if you can't get any.

If you don't have a light unit I've been mucking about with these: "225 LED LIGHT BOARD RED AND BLUE HYDROPONIC GROW LIGHT (14W - INCLUDES HANGER)" £20 from Amazon. The boards are a bit flimsy and the hangers are rubbish, but they through-out lots of PAR.

cheers Darrel

[exasperatus2002]

I use wet/dry filters which I made myself on my 75 gal and 125 gal.
I know that planted tank specialists do not recommend them but I have my 125 gal set up as a planted Tetra tank and my plants are doing fine.
I run large wet/dry filters with each equipped with a MagDrive 9.5 water pump. These are rated at 950 gph at zero head but they have very little loss at a head height of about a meter.
I also run a canister filter in conjunction with my wet/dry filters. The combination has always worked well for my wild Discus. I always have kept my wild Discus in these tanks but it has been nice to have one large planted show tank for a change. I hadn't set up a big show tank for small fish in ages.

Not sure why they'd not recommend a wet/dry for a planted tank. I had a 55 gallon dutch style tank with discus & wood cats with one of those h.o.b wet dry's back in the 90's. I loved it. kept my tank crystal clear when coupled with a marineland h.o.t filter.

[2wheelsx2]

Not sure why they'd not recommend a wet/dry for a planted tank. I had a 55 gallon dutch style tank with discus & wood cats with one of those h.o.b wet dry's back in the 90's. I loved it. kept my tank crystal clear when coupled with a marineland h.o.t filter.

They do not recommend them because of CO2 injection and offgassing. If you're not injecting CO2, no reason not to. As a matter of fact, it would increase the intake of atmospheric CO2. Also, if the sump is sealed, not reason not to use a wet/dry. Tom Barr is actually currently heavily advocating the use of overflows and wet/dry sumps for high tech planted tanks. It's just been slow to move people's thinking.

[exasperatus2002]

Not sure why they'd not recommend a wet/dry for a planted tank. I had a 55 gallon dutch style tank with discus & wood cats with one of those h.o.b wet dry's back in the 90's. I loved it. kept my tank crystal clear when coupled with a marineland h.o.t filter.

They do not recommend them because of CO2 injection and offgassing. If you're not injecting CO2, no reason not to. As a matter of fact, it would increase the intake of atmospheric CO2. Also, if the sump is sealed, not reason not to use a wet/dry. Tom Barr is actually currently heavily advocating the use of overflows and wet/dry sumps for high tech planted tanks. It's just been slow to move people's thinking.

Thank you for the explanation. I never supplemented co2, I did it the ole fashioned way & relied on the fish for that. But I did supplement nutrients.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

If you're not injecting CO2, no reason not to. As a matter of fact, it would increase the intake of atmospheric CO2....

Very true, if you don't add CO2, "wet and dry" filters will tend to lead to both higher oxygen and higher CO2 levels in the water. This is because their extremely large gas exchange capacity means that the dissolved gas levels equilibrate with atmospheric levels, via diffusion, more quickly.

cheers Darrel