Colombian shark catfish? Please help!!!!

[Sara1210]

Hi

About a month ago i set up a tropical tank. Completely uneducated i one of the fish i brought was a columbian shark catfish. Brought under the the false knowledge it was a freshwater fish! About a week after getting him the fish started to get white spot, mainly my shark. I treated with medication but his skin became rough and almost lumped up (only way i can describe it). Unfortunatly we lost him, but i absolutely fell in love with him in that week so i did some research then later realised he should of been in brackish conditions. So my son have my angel fish and plec in his tropical tank and i set up my tank ready for some more sharks as i learnt they also do well in groups. So i added some reef crystals to the tank (only 2 grammes to every litre at the minute as they are only between 2 and 3 inches).

Whats really worrying me is ive only had my 3 new sharks 5 days and since day 1 i have noticed they have been flicking off the glass and gravel. I panicked and straight away took the carbon out the filter and started treating with half doses of ich med. I cant see any spots on any of the sharks but what could be causing them to flick. I really dont want to lose them and im stuck on whether to carry on treating with the ich medicine or what to do. Ive also been doing 25% water changes every other day.

Any help would be really appreciated. Thank you

[Viktor Jarikov]

Welcome, Sara. I share in your love for this fish. Many things can cause that. Ich is one common one. Almost all external flukes, parasites, etc. will cause skin irritation. So does ammonia too. I'd suggest to make sure the water is clean, nice, and proper for these fish - NH3, NO2, NO3, pH, temp. Please see the datasheet in Cat-eLog. Salt kills ich too BTW and many other freshwater parasites, so I'd try increasing the salt concentration rather than any meds.

The most probable reason they are flicking is that they are stressed, e.g., by the move. Stress weakens the immune system. Hence, a possible outbreak. I'd do everything to make sure there is no stress factors in their current situation.

[racoll]

Sorry if this sounds harsh (and welcome to the forum by the way), but unfortunately it's the truth!

These catfish are far too large and specialised for people to look after in a home aquarium. They really should not be widely available in the trade at all. They will need a fully marine/brackish tank in excess of 150 gallons. This is no place for "community" species such as angelfish. As an illustration, if you placed a wild angelfish in the habitat of a

Colombian Shark Catfish

, and vice versa, they would both be dead within minutes as they require such different water parameters.

I can offer no other advice but to take the fishes back to the store, and purchase a fish that has a chance of surviving in an aquarium, and preferably from a different shop, as one that sold you these fish should not be in business.

There's a reason you see very few adult

Colombian Shark Catfish

returned to fish shops; it's not because everyone owns a six foot brackish/marine tank, it's because they all die in unsuitable and cruel conditions.

Something like a group of

Pimelodus pictus

might be a better alternative?

P.S. sorry again if that sounds harsh.

[Sara1210]

Welcome, Sara. I share in your love for this fish. Many things can cause that. Ich is one common one. Almost all external flukes, parasites, etc. will cause skin irritation. So does ammonia too. I'd suggest to make sure the water is clean, nice, and proper for these fish - NH3, NO2, NO3, pH, temp. Please see the datasheet in Cat-eLog. Salt kills ich too BTW and many other freshwater parasites, so I'd try increasing the salt concentration rather than any meds.

The most probable reason they are flicking is that they are stressed, e.g., by the move. Stress weakens the immune system. Hence, a possible outbreak. I'd do everything to make sure there is no stress factors in their current situation.

Thank you viktor for your reply. I have been testing the water every couple of days between water changes and all is within range i also took a sample of their tank water to our local pet store who tested it for ammonia and that also came back absolutely fine. I found online earlier a bit about velvet so i went and brought some anti slime and velvet, i did a 50% water change and added this medicine and they seem to have perked up. There swimming fine and eating like little pigs there fins are also nice and high.

Would being in a freshwater tank in the pet store then going into saltwater even as dilute as 2 grams to every litre. Would that irritate their skin?

Racoll i appreciate your opinion i really do but i know this time what i have let myself into, i admit i didnt when i brought my first one but i have researched and yes im a beginner but i will do everything i need to to keep these fish happy and healthy

[sidguppy]

I've kept a small group of subadults with other fish, until I underestimated the viciousness of my African labeo

until then they fared OK, but as Victor says; these are not so easy to keep.

my group of 4 I had from friends, they were then about 20 cm or so.
at this size they usually need a fair amount of salt, but these were imported from a nondisclosed location said to be without connection to the sea.

I cannot verify that, but they didn't seem to need as much salt as marine fish.

however!
they DID need a certain amount of salt.

I lost 1 in the beginning, most likely because I hadn't added any salt and also because there were simply too many boisterous fish in there.
afther I removed about half the fish from that tank.

my tank was a 315 gallon tank and once I removed half the fish in there and added salt, they started to do a lot better.

despite the activity level (they're true cruisers!), this is a mellow, friendly and very peaceful catfish that's quite a bit more fragile than you would expect from such a bulky thickskinned fish.

it's a very active fish. I don't have much light, just 3 energy-saving daylight lamps.
can't add a lot of light, because it's not needed, most of my fish see live plants as extra chow, so I only needed diffuse light to show the tank.

the Arius liked that and always were up and about.

it's not a catfish that seeks a cave and rest and comes out during the wee hours

it's basically a "very friendly shark".

which means it needs a LOT of room, a very sparsely furnitured tank, open space, loads of free unclutted sand (they dig!), clean well-oxygeneted water, a bit of salt and did I mention lots of space?

the 1 male and 2 females (or reverse) I had ate anything, but when I stuck to artificial food for a week or so, they got fairly thin.
this fish needs chow.
meat.
lots

it's likely the activity level
you try running half a marathon every day and eating tidbits, see what happens to your weight

so the best way I could keep em bulky was feeding smelt, whole shrimps, mysis, krill, mussels, shrimp-mix; that kind of stuff.
nice food, but also fairly polluting

so then there's big waterchanges coming in.
when I got sloppy with those they developed 'rashes'; large pieces of grey skin like abrasions.
those would disappear quickly if I did a big 2/3rd or 3/4rd waterchange with some salt involved

they really love waterchanges; they get frisky afterwards.


unfortunately dumb ol' sid who's not learning too much made the BIG mistake of buying a Labeo cyclorhunchus (known as Harlequin Shark or -old name- Labeo variegatus).
after a few months where nothing happened that fish managed to destroy my 3 Arius within a single weekend during a psycho insane killing spree

mind, it was half the size of the Arius, but that was 1 bad ass mean machine. I completely miscalculated the ability of an African Labeo to dismantle other fish.

I now know that African Labeo's are in the same league as Hemibagrus wickioides and similar critters.

Arius are well woth keeping.
but indeed; not many people are prepared to set up 6+ foot tanks with brackish fish.

[RickE]

One other piece of advice if you decide to carry on and get these. If for any reason you have to handle them, watch out for, in particular, the dorsal spine. I can tell you from experience that it is very painful to have it stuck under your fingernail

[Viktor Jarikov]

have been testing the water every couple of days between water changes and all is within range

There is not much of a range when it comes to NH3 and NO2 - they should be at zero ppm, ideally, or at least very close, e.g., significantly under 0.25 ppm (and even that only at times like after a heavy feeding). If you use test strips, I'd quit that - they are notoriously crude and inaccurate. API liquid droplet test is what many (and I) recommend - e.g., it's only $24 from petsolutions.com - four tests.

Racoll (a professional ichthyologist) is right in his warnings but it sounds like your mind's made up. Then go for it, I'd say but be prepared to learn more and keep a closer watch over these fish (than over most other fish). These BTW can live for at least 10-20 years - it's a longer commitment than a cat or a dog.

Velvet is also killed by salt. If the salt addition is gradual, they should be fine with that. Small fish are indeed sometimes kept successfully in fresh water but not for long. Less than a year or half a year.

I do not think it is salt that's irritating them.

SidGuppy is a great expert too and is giving an edifying personal account - so, I'd heed that.

I'd say at adulthood, when you have a group of 4-7, 6' tank is a bare min. More is better. I'd aim for 300+ gal, something like 8'x3'x2'.

Their spines have a pain-causing toxin in the slime. I do not think it has any long-term effects but it hurts a lot at first.

Best of luck.

[Scleropages]

I can offer no other advice but to take the fishes back to the store...

I agree with racoll. It does not sound like you are prepared to handle the demands of keeping Ariopsis seemanni, which is Colombian, not Columbian. I would bring it back to the store and demand a full refund at least in the form of store credit. There are many species of catfish that are more suited to be tankmates with your current stock.

I'm partial to the Synodontis catfish of Africa. Some of those species may work with your current setup. You can find out and ask questions about them on the African Catfish section of the forum.

[Sara1210]

I can offer no other advice but to take the fishes back to the store...

I agree with racoll. It does not sound like you are prepared to handle the demands of keeping Ariopsis seemanni, which is Colombian, not Columbian. I would bring it back to the store and demand a full refund at least in the form of store credit. There are many species of catfish that are more suited to be tankmates with your current stock.

I'm partial to the Synodontis catfish of Africa. Some of those species may work with your current setup. You can find out and ask questions about them on the African Catfish section of the forum.

My 3 sharks are on their own in the tank. If you read my original post you`ll see i said my angels are now in my sons tank. As for the spelling mistake its an easy mistake to make and one thats happened many times before on the forum from what ive seen! My sharks are actually doing really well, the salt is slowly being increased and i am already looking around sites for a big tank so thanks for the advice but id much rather carry on caring for them here than take them back to the store i brought them for them to be put back into freshwater and die!!!

[Scleropages]

Forgive me if I missed it, but what size tank are you keeping them in?

[Sara1210]

At the minute their just in a 3ft tank. I have 3 sharks and there currently only about 3 inches each but im now looking into a 6ft (500 gallon) tank

[Viktor Jarikov]

Good job, Sara! And please try to return with regular updates and, especially, pics, for instance a couple of times a year as the fishes grow.

I am more than sure Scleropages means well. We all add to your knowledge and ours, collectively, regardless of the differences in opinions or how they are expressed.

[Scleropages]

I am more than sure Scleropages means well.

Yeah, sorry if I came off all stuffy. I truly recommended what I thought would be most beneficial for the fish and the Homo sapiens.

However, Sara1210, if you are serious about keeping the "Colombian Shark Catfish" (shouldn't this be in the SA catfishes (everything else) section?), then, by all means, go for it. Just understand that one will need a large tank... 72"x18" footprint, at least--probably better with 72"x24". And, you will be limited in what you can keep with them as ideal tankmates (Monos, Scats, large mollies, maybe Tilapia).

I think adding 2 grams (~1/3 of a teaspoon) of salt per liter should be okay for them. It should, if anything, soothe their skin.

What is the temp in their tank?

[Jools]

Moved this post to the correct forum.

Jools

[Sara1210]

I am more than sure Scleropages means well.

Yeah, sorry if I came off all stuffy. I truly recommended what I thought would be most beneficial for the fish and the Homo sapiens.

However, Sara1210, if you are serious about keeping the "Colombian Shark Catfish" (shouldn't this be in the SA catfishes (everything else) section?), then, by all means, go for it. Just understand that one will need a large tank... 72"x18" footprint, at least--probably better with 72"x24". And, you will be limited in what you can keep with them as ideal tankmates (Monos, Scats, large mollies, maybe Tilapia).

I think adding 2 grams (~1/3 of a teaspoon) of salt per liter should be okay for them. It should, if anything, soothe their skin.

What is the temp in their tank?

Thank you, i really appreciate any help i can get on here.

I was planning on keeping them on there own anyway so tank mates wouldn`t be a problem. Tank temp is at 26 degrees centigrade. They have got a small case of white spot, one has 3 spots the other has 1 spot, the one with 3 spots hasn`t had any new spots come up for the past 3 days so im hoping thats it for him, and the other one with the white spot has just come up today but the little one is also flicking a little so im thinking he is probably going to have some show up anytime. They seem fine in themselves, there all happy, swimming around, eating etc its just the odd flick that shows something is irritating them.

I took Viktor`s advice and stopped using the ich meds and over 3 25% water changes I have upped there salt to 4 grams per litre. Will that be enough salt to kill the ich once it leaves the sharks?

[Scleropages]

I'd raise the temp, at least temporarily, to 27-28 deg C (~82 deg F)... which, in addition to the salt, will help kill off the free swimming stage of ich. Your salt levels sound okay.

[Sara1210]

Will do now. Thank you

[Viktor Jarikov]

On salt: if you will, Sara, please review the discussion in this thread - starting from the bottom third of the 2nd page and onto the 3rd page. This should give you an idea on salt levels used to kill ich, velvet, other external parasites.

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... o&start=20

[Scleropages]

I am VERY DISAPPOINTED that I missed that thread.

[joefish72b]

Rather than tell you that you don't know what you are doing, I'll just give you my experience with keeping this fish.

Like most people I bought one of these fish not knowing how big they get. Luckily I have several large tanks so space wasn't an issue. What I found is once they reach about 6 inches they become quite territorial and will become aggressive toward tank mates. Mine killed an iridescent shark that was in the tank with it. They will also eat anything they can get including smaller fish like tetras (an expensive feeder fish in my opinion).

This fish is also quite fast when it needs/wants to be and can catch just about anything it wants. Mine became such a problem in my display tank I had to seperate it out. It eventually went into my 300 gallon pond where it lived for about 6 months before (I think) the local red tail hawk made a meal out of it.

[sidguppy]

What I found is once they reach about 6 inches they become quite territorial and will become aggressive toward tank mates

I think this could be caused by you keeping a single fish of a species that's clearly a shoaling fish

I've had 4 and they were total wussies.
active, yes, but very peaceful

about the eating of small fish; many people mistake piscivore hunting behavior with agression; which is clearly not the same
actually many piscivores tend to be shy and quite fragile too.

[joefish72b]

Keeping a single fish could have been a major part of my issue, along with other factors. As for the hunting/eating other than cutting it open I couldn't be 100% sure, but when my 15 neon tetras went to 4 over night that fish was pretty swollen with something in it's stomach. The next day the last 4 neons were gone.

Like a lot of people I learned the hard way that you should research your fish before you buy them, not after. I guess it falls under if you don't make mistakes you never know what "not" to do.

[sidguppy]

Neons!

I assumed you were talking about larger fish

to a Colombian shark, even if it's just a 4" juvie, a Neon is just like a daphnia with fins on

I wouldn't call this fish hunting; almost ANY catfish larger than 3" will eat Neons, unless it's a herbivore.

[Viktor Jarikov]

... Mine became such a problem in my display tank I had to separate it out. It eventually went into my 300 gallon pond ...

What kind of water was in your display tank and in your pond, Joe? I don't recall seeing marine tanks at your place. As for the ponds, natural ones around here are low-end brackish, right? But yours is/was a liner pond, I think.

[joefish72b]

... Mine became such a problem in my display tank I had to separate it out. It eventually went into my 300 gallon pond ...

What kind of water was in your display tank and in your pond, Joe? I don't recall seeing marine tanks at your place. As for the ponds, natural ones around here are low-end brackish, right? But yours is/was a liner pond, I think.

Yes I have a liner pond but my well water is salty, not alot of salt but enough. The well draws from 240 feet deep and my total TDS last time I checked was 2100 (up from 1900 a year ago) of that I think like 900 ppm is salt. I don't know what that translates to in actual salinity and I've never put a hydro to it.

I've since purchased a large 2100 GPD RO that does all the water for the whole house. Now I get to play mad scientist and mix ratios of RO with straight well water. The nice thing is with RO you can get slightly acidic water by just letting it sit in a tank for 2-3 days which my cories love. For my other tanks I have to do about 1 part well to 2 parts RO to get a happy 7.6 Ph, the tough part is always having to deal with water ratios and that darn sulfer smell from the well water.

[Viktor Jarikov]

2100 ppm is low end brackish. Brackish is defined as from ~1000 to ~10,000 ppm, if I recall right. The salt water in the Gulf of Mexico just a few miles from you and me is about 32,000 ppm = 32 parts per thousand = 3.2 parts per hundred = 3.2%, to put things in perspective. Even 100% of the raw well water would be border-line acceptable for a sub-adult colombian shark, but might have not been? I am just thinking out loud - I trust your saying the fish did fine health-wise.

[MatsP]

Brackish water start around 0.5ppt (ppt = parts per thousand) or 500 ppm. However, I think this is SALINITY, rather than "TDS", so you need to understand how much of your TDS is sodium chloride salt and how much is "other stuff", such as Calcium & Magnesium salts.

--
Mats

[joefish72b]

Brackish water start around 0.5ppt (ppt = parts per thousand) or 500 ppm. However, I think this is SALINITY, rather than "TDS", so you need to understand how much of your TDS is sodium chloride salt and how much is "other stuff", such as Calcium & Magnesium salts.

--
Mats

I mentioned above my salt was around 900ppm, I didn't ever take the time to look up how close to brackish that was/is. I would assume during our rainy season that number would drop but it's still way higher than you would expect from a "fresh water well". On the plus side it makes great aquarium water, only once have I had an issue with ich and that was from fish purchased from a wholesaler.

Other things in my well water, iron, calcium, magnesium, hydrogen sulfide (that might be wrong as I'm going on memory), amonia, sulfer bacteria.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Brackish water start around 0.5ppt (ppt = parts per thousand) or 500 ppm. However, I think this is SALINITY, rather than "TDS", so you need to understand how much of your TDS is sodium chloride salt and how much is "other stuff", such as Calcium & Magnesium salts.

Well, salinity cannot be higher than TDS, so TDS defines the max possible number for salinity, which, in reality, will always be lower than TDS.

My point being that Joe's 6"-7" colombian shark did fine in water with 0.1%-0.2% salinity (or, if he was mixing in RO water, it was lower, perhaps 0.05%-0.1%), while full salinity is 2%-5%. Conclusion: 1/10 or 1/20 of full marine salinity may be fine for a half-grown

Ariopsis seemanni

, which maxes out at 14" SL.

Cat-eLog says: Salt should be added in relation to the age of the fish. The older the fish, the more salt, right up to 100% marine. The fish is very tolerant of changes of salinity and will live in freshwater happily as a young fish.