Loricaria rio Atabapo ... breed

[Cronel]

Hello guys,
I have a problem. My Loricaria rio Atabapo doesn´t breed . These fishes are more than 1 years old. I have 13 fishes. They have about 14 cm. They have 150l tank with sand bottom temperature is about 26C, pH about 7 and hardness is low. I change 50% of water every 5 days. They eat SERA tablets, frozen bloodworm and moina. I don´t think what I do wrong. I try change water parameters, more food, frequently change the water ... However nothing gave result. I try to distinguish male from female and I think that I have more male fish that female but it shouldn´t matter. I don´t know what I change or try so that they´ll have eggs. ... I have Loricaria filamentosa red and Loricaria filamentosa too. And they often breed. And I have many successful rearing.
Thanks 4 help.

[pleco_breeder]

Not sure which species you're referring to, but it sounds like you're changing water too often to condition the breeders. When trying to get a new spawn, it's not uncommon for me to skip water changes for 3-9 weeks to allow water quality to slowly fade. If I become concerned about the water, I do 2.5-3 percent daily water changes to keep it in the intended range. It's more about old water than dirty water.

For a first rainy season, I'll normally only do one large (50 percent) water change. Most of the easy species will respond to that within a couple days. If I get no response, at the end of the next cycle, I will do two changes. I skip a day in between the changes in case the pair decide they just weren't ready the first cycle and pair up in a cave.

I do this progressively adding an additional water change till I get used to how much rainy season the species requires.

Hope this helps,

Larry

[Cronel]

OK, If I understand I change the water so little as possible. But I´m afraid that pH will be too small. Sometimes I change water once a week and walls tank are slimy and slime is in the filter. Fishes are still in one place always in the corner tank. At night are all over the tank.

I read that these Loricaria needs very soft water. I gave them water form well and it was too hard water but fishes looked happy and fit. When I changed water from tap water which is very soft they looked so good as before and water is so quick spoiled. So, water from well spoiled very slow. Maybe, it can be better to use this water.

If I understand, I have to artificially make the rainy season to fish smeared. Little change water looks like rain in nature.

I´ll try to gradually change the water back to water from well and after in small doses (max. 3percent of tank). And after it I won´t change water so much as now.

Thanks for UR help.

[The.Dark.One]

I assume he means these

Loricaria sp`rio_atabapo`

[Cronel]

Yes, this species, but I wrote it on the top and in text ... Never mind, mainly that we know what's going on

[zipper]

Try moving a trio into their own tank. Your large group might be discouraging breeding. I've found that my atabapos do not breed as often when there are a lot of fish in the tank. Also, soft water isn't needed with these fish. I've kept them in straight tap water for some years and they have no problems breeding.

[Cronel]

Yes, I thought about it. You mean trio ... 1 male and 2 females, but how large tank they need? About 40l? I use water from well as once. It is good water pH isn´t falling after 5 days and water doesn´t spoil.
Many thanks all who helps me . It´s useful advices.

[Cronel]

http://img1.rajce.idnes.cz/d0102/5/5849 ... e1445J.jpg

Here is a photo. Sorry for quality. I took a photo by my mobile .

[apistomaster]

I do not think you are doing anything wrong.
Especially since you have already been successful at breeding related fish.
They may be a little young or maybe you are being a little impatient. Right now I suspect it is a little of both.

50% water changes once a week is a good routine amount of water to change.
I usually change about 3/4 of the water every week then increase that to 75% every 4th day if I am trying to encourage spawning. I am not trying to simulate any seasons but rather I am trying to provide the highest water quality I can.
I also increase the amount of live or fresh frozen foods when trying to encourage spawning. Your catfish love small or chopped live worms and Chironomid larvae(AKA "Blood Worms").
All these are just small things one can provide which may help but ultimately being persistent and patient are the real "secrets" to breeding most species of Loricariidae. Too much is made of trying to simulate the seasons.
Their habitat is much cleaner and oxygen rich than the best aquarium. The Atabapo is one of the haunts of the Pterophyllum altum Angelfish which is among the most demanding of aquarium fish and Altum are never found in less than pristine water. Your Loricaria species share the same habitat with P. altum but are far more adaptable.

Your fish may not be too demanding about their water chemistry but the habitats in the Atabapo are warm; 28/29*C and their water type is black water which has almost no measurable E/C and the pH is normally between 3.5 and 4.5. So at least continue using your soft water and perhaps tint it by using a few T. cattapa leaves as needed. You need not try to exactly duplicate the water chemistry but I would recommend that you continue using your moderately soft water. I recommend keeping them over a fine sand substrate 2 to 3 cm deep. Be sure to leave a lot of open sandy area along with some overhead structure like a few branches of wood; not quite a cave but some form of sheltering structures. They also need high dissolved O2 levels so provide plenty of aeration and noticeable currents. They will like partial shade from floating plants like Tropical Hornwort, Water Sprite or whatever grows well for you.
I highly recommend that you read this excellent article written by Rupert Collins about his experiences keeping and breeding the related Pseudohemiodon sp Marbled as a good baseline reference. http://www.planetcatfish.com/cotm/cotm. ... cle_id=361
Your patience will eventually be rewarded. Best of luck to you.

[Shane]

As Larry points out above, water conditions should be quite warm and the water very soft and acidic. I would hit them with a 50 percent water change with reverse osmosis or distilled water, add some black water extract, and raise the temperature to about 29C.
You could also add a layer of leaf litter to provide some extra security and privacy.
-Shane

[zipper]

Yes, I thought about it. You mean trio ... 1 male and 2 females, but how large tank they need? About 40l? I use water from well as once. It is good water pH isn´t falling after 5 days and water doesn´t spoil.
Many thanks all who helps me . It´s useful advices.

Yes, one male, two females. This is how I started with this fish. They are slow and methodical breeders, they sit next to each other all night long in one spot and do their thing. When my group grew to around 10 animals ( I grew some offspring with the original 3) I noticed that at about a year, the males would actively pursue Gracie females. This caused a bit of action at night amongst the fish and their production really dropped off.

I should also note that I haven't actively tried to breed them in a couple years and they reside in a community tank with one huge spatuloricaria, a trio of pseudacanthicus leopardus, and a few other random L-numbers and they don't breed at all. I really believe this has to do with the boisterous antics that go on during the night.

Once you do get them going though, expect to produce near 100 fry a month. These fish are quite prolific.

[Cronel]

Very thanks for your effort. I´ll do a big changes. I´ll buy new branches, more fine sand and try to take pair in their own tank. I raise the temperature and mix water from well with tap water. (Tap water´s hardness is nearly 3 dGH and water from well´s hardness is about 12dGH). I used torumin for my cheirodon axelordi ... it is an extract which change water to tropical water ... natural water. I´ll try to give it to my loricaria. I use ozone to clean the water. I find nice pair I hope that they´ll be good .Perhaps it's finally succeed.

Thanks
Cronel

[apistomaster]

I have never used ozone but only due to finances. Ozone among other things, helps to increase the redox of aquarium water to be much closer to that measured in their native waters. I think that it's use will be very helpful.
I have a lot of faith in your future success.

[Cronel]

I am pleased to do so. I used ozone in my early days in the 90s, but I don´t use it nowdays. However I´ll start to use it again . It is good thing. I´m really happy for your help. It gives me new trust to success.

On the other hand. I wanna ask you, how types of brine shrimp to hatch you can buy andaAt what cost? In Czech rep. is from USA mainly O.S.I, Cowboy, Sanders ... 1 tin O.S.I. Red Top (425g roughly 1lb) and it costs about 50 USD.

Thanks
Cronel

[apistomaster]

Hi Cronel,
I mainly use Utah brine shrimp which I buy from http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/. Their 16 oz/454 gram tins of "A" grade cysts are currently US$51.95 so that is no different from what yours cost.
The Utah's Great Salt Lake species, Artemia salina, are slightly larger upon hatching than the slightly smaller San Francisco Bay brand, Artemia franciscana. I use it as a transitional food on fish going from Infusoria to brine shrimp. These are more expensive but I use so little that I only buy the approximately 70 gram tins.
A. salina is distributed around the world but there are different Artemia species and populations which make their way to the tropical fish hobby and they vary widely in the percent of viable cysts. OSI is an excellent brand and is as good as brineshrimpdirect's Artemia cysts.

You may find the way I use my newly hatched Artemia useful as it pertains to feeding Loricariidae fry. I use this method on all my fish not just my catfish.
I use reef salt instead of plain Sodium chloride(rock salt) or the mixture of sodium chloride with some magnesium sulfate(Epsom's Salt). I have found I get better hatches using less reef salt than if I follow the directions on the tins. I use a tbs of reef salt per liter. The hatches are improved enough to justify the use of the more expensive reef salt. I hatch 2 tsp of cysts in 2 liter brine shrimp hatching cones kept warm(27 to 28*C) and lighted. My cysts hatch completely within 24 hours. I harvest the shrimp all at once and then store them refrigerated in about a liter of clean reef brine with 1 tbs reef salt/liter/quart. I use a plastic shoe box and only enough brine to fill the shoe box about 2.5 cm of brine deep. This helps keep the dissolved O2 level high which extends nauplii life while refrigerated. Most will remain alive for 12 to 18 hours in the refrigerator or even 24 hours. How long nauplii remain alive depends on how cold the refrigerator is. The dying or dead nauplii in the last 6 out of 24 hours are still excellent food because both refrigeration and storage in brine preserves their food value. This technique effectively stops the nauplii at their most nutritious stage. They never undergo their first molt. For feeding bottom feeding fry like those of catfish I remove any source of current to promote settling during feeding but do not forget to resume the aeration thereafter. For most other fish I leave aeration on so the nauplii remain distributed in the water column and moving since many fish fry will only feed on living/moving food. This storage method allows me to have clean and fresh nauplii on hand until the full next 24 hour hatching cycle has completed thus replenishing my supply. This is much easier than repeatedly harvesting nauplii from the hatching container. It allows me to use as few as one hatcher to maintain a steady supply of usable nauplii at all times. By harvesting all the nauplii immediately after hatching and then refrigerating them, I am able to prevent them from undergoing their first molt which means they are effectively "frozen" at their most nutritious stage in their life cycle.

[BevN]

Hi,

I just stumbled across this thread and thought I'd toss my two cents in.

We had spawned these a few years back. They came in a bag mixed with another species. I sold off all but one trio of these that I decided to keep. We lost the smaller female and it wasn't long before the pair spawned. We managed to raise a fair number of these. Once started they were very prolific. I didn't do water changes nearly as often and would often let them go for a few weeks between.

I would suggest setting up a pair in a 30-40 gallon tank. We kept ours in soft water with a ph of about 5.5-6. TDS was about 116. Temp was about 80. We did not find it necessary to use r/o with these. We fed them a variety of foods including live black worms. The fry were pretty easy to raise and we started them on bbs. They would also eat off the pellet foods we fed the adults as well.

Very neat fish and awesome to watch the male tend to his clutch of eggs. We unfortunately lost our pair after a water change that we never did figure out. I've been keeping my eye out for them to hit the import list again.

Good luck with yours.

Bev

[Cronel]

I decided to try your advice.... I have group of atabapos in one large tank like once. However I don´t change water and do other things which said other breeeders in this thread. But I took one trio in their own tank (29 gallon) with sand bottom. Temp is about 80F. I must buy big branch and do some shelter by stone and plastic water pipe. I have to wait until the water gets older and will be acidic. Then I´ll see what atabapos are doing and if they´ll reproduce. It should take about two weeks.

Thanks Cronel

P.S.
Happy new year 2012 from Czech republic.