Help! pink L134s dying

[rhibear]

Last week my large gravid L134 turned pink/red on the leading edge of her fins,and appeared to be breathing quickly/heavily. I did a large water change immediately.
The next morning her entire body looked pink, as if she had a sunburn.
I moved her to a QT dosed with Furan-2 (nitrofurazone and furazolidone) suspecting hemorrhagic septicemia, but she died that night.
Her 4 tankmates, all L134s, appeared unaffected.
Today another L134 in that tank has red leading edges of fins and is breathing heavily. His tank mates don't look quite right but I couldn't explain in what way exactly. The spectrum pellet food I gave them this morning is untouched and it seems they have all been off their food for a few days.
Any suggestions? I really don't want to lose anymore of my Leopard Frogs

specs:
20g long, well water pH 6.6, temp 78, food: hikari sinking pellets & kensfish 4 bit blend (egg bits, earthworm bits, spirulina bits, & color bits)

[Maccus]

I think I would have done the same, maybe treatment was not in time?.

[YSR50]

Sorry I can't be of any help with the illness, but the temp seems pretty low to me. I keep my frogs around 81-82º with plenty of air pumped into the tank.

Good luck and hope things work out

[rhibear]

Friday I moved them all to a QT tank and started dosing Furan 2.
3 appear improved, the 1 with redness on his fins now has odd red spots on his body too and is still breathing rapidly.
None have eaten whatsoever.
If I didn't know better I would think he had been pulled forcefully from a cave and then beaten, but none appear capable or inclined to fighting.

I am surprised that no one has ever seen anything like this before.
I am at a loss.

(I aim for 82F but in the winter the tank sits closer to 78-80)

[Unungy]

Hi
I think you're doing the right thing. Could you take some pics of the parts affected?
Does the reddish appear as the above pictures?

[rhibear]

Sorry about the quality of pictures my QT isnt in the greatest location for photographing.

#1. bruised & beaten up looking fish.

#2. bloated and slightly red at fin tips fish.

Our well water has around 20ppm nitrates so they mostly get RO/DI water during water changes.

[nvcichlids]

velvet?

[andregurov]

Septicemia? The bloating is concerning; usually intraspecific aggression is manifested through torn fins, so I would hazard it has an internal bacterial infection. The bloating could be hinting at an osmotic issue, symptomatic of kidney issues ...

Or: you could be looking at an ammonia/nitrite issue - previous to the problems - and the fish are just now "catching up" to the previous ammonia exposure.

I do not think it is parasitic. Velvet is discernable as tiny gold dust spread all over the fish, and can be best seen on the ventral side/belly. I don't see that, and usually velvet also causes massive sloughing of the slime coat and tissue when well along.

[rhibear]

I agree, and an internal bacterial infection is what I suspected from the start. I'm just not sure why the Furan-2 (nitrofurazone and furazolidone) isn't helping, and what I could try/do instead/as well.

[zeebo]

can u get ahold of Microbe-Lift Artemiss ? it is herbal ,wont destroy your filter media ,and says it treats "bacterial dropsy" among other things. It is safe for plecs. HTH,

Georgie

[andregurov]

I missed your (quite clear) diagnosis of septicemia the first time around, sorry.

I don't know if it is a good idea to change treatments after just a few days, particularly in a problem as stubborn and vexing as a possible internal infection (where the damage may have already been done, and medication can no longer help). But ... have you considered using kanamycin sulfate (marketed by Seachem as Kanaplex)? I understand that it is far more soluble in water and absorbed through the gills, and I have had good results from it in treating "dropsy" in some fish. I know nitrofurazone is an old standby, but for whatever reason, results from it have been poor, for me. I recall hearing that its solubility is poor, and thus it is best used as a feed rather than a bath. I'm sure many here would have more informed opinions on it than I, though.

[RickE]

I would not rule out parasites so quickly. The 'bloody marks' are typical of parasitic damage and the bloating could also be caused by them. There is no reason you can't treat for both septicemia and parasites at the same time.

[grokefish]

Don't want to upset you here but I had a similar problem in my tank a few months ago and it wiped all the loricarids out.
I hope you have better result than I.

[Unungy]

Some very good advise has been given. I will suggest to keep us updated so if the treatment doesn't work in the next week or so, some other medicine can be applied.

I will not feed at all until they fully recover.

[rhibear]

The bloated one has a bloody vent and is now expelling something hard to describe. Yellow globules that look half transparent. It also has increased bloody red marks.
The one that is not bloated has the same bloody marks and appears unchanged.
Any ideas about what is being expelled and does it shed any more light on what is wrong with them?

Being that it's been 4 days with the furan-2 (the recommended treatment duration) I did a large water change last night and just dosed Kanaplex. I hope this is the right choice.

[Unungy]

The look like eggs to me.
Could it be that the female could not release the eggs? I've heard of this many times. It causes them sudden death as they can't release.
As to the red markings on the fin is not very clear to say for sure.

I will give them a day or two without making any dramatic changes.
Make sure if you do water changes to keep the right medication doses.

[pleco_breeder]

I completely missed the eggs when I first looked at this pic. I was too focused on the swelling and red marks. I have seen similar problems with mature females, but there was always at least a trapping before it. Are you sure you have both sexes in the tank?

I'm going out on a limb, but the red fins do look like battle scars. If multiple females were ripe, they may have started fighting for dominance to see who gets to spawn. Fighting could have easily left open sores for infection to set-in. I'm basing this loosely on experience with a possible chain of events. I have seen trapped females extrude eggs like this when they escape prior to laying and can't get back in.

Regardless, because of the open sores, I would continue treating the tank and keep it as clean as possible so they can recover.

Larry

[rhibear]

I think I may have found the answer...

I just found several long brown leeches in their usual tank. These are leeches that I have found in my live blackworms before and usually I will pull them out when I find them. I suppose I must have missed at least one and they have reproduced in the tank. I pulled one leech out by hand and the little bugger bit my finger. I wasnt able to pull it off myself but it dropped off when I stuck my finger under hot water.

I guess the leeches hitchhiked when I moved over a couple of caves to the QT tank...

Is it possible/likely that these leeches are doing all this damage? I havent seen any attached to a fish but I don't spend a great deal of time in my fishroom lately.

[rhibear]

Thinking back to which one died last week. I'm pretty sure it was my only male afterall. He wasn't in spawning condition hence my oversight but he had vastly different markings which I confused in my memory. I am pretty sure the 4 I have now are all females.

[Unungy]

Thinking back to which one died last week. I'm pretty sure it was my only male afterall. He wasn't in spawning condition hence my oversight but he had vastly different markings which I confused in my memory. I am pretty sure the 4 I have now are all females.

That is a great thing if you ask me! , lets hope those girls condition again and you can find a willing male and it will be over soon.
Best of luck

[apistomaster]

I keep and breed Peckoltia compta at 84*F and they are provided plenty of aeration between an air lift driven sponge filter and air stone plus another sponge filter driven by MaxiJet 600(160gph/600lph) power head per all my 20 Long to 40 gal breeder style tanks.

It does appear to me to be bacterial septicemia and I regard it as untreatable by the time symptoms are obvious and if fish have already died. Just keeping up the dissolved O2 and good water conditions seems to be best and hope that most of the fish will over come the problem by their own immunological response.

There is no sign of Velvet nor any other external skin parasites. I routinely treat all newly received wild Plecos and Discus for a month in a bath of metroniadazole, flubendazole 10% powder and Hikari PraziPro. That seems to preempt most multicellur internal parasites and gill flukes. Flubendazole has also been shown to be effective against common skin Protistan parasites.

The leeches and black worms are harmless with one exception. That being if you feed dying black worms to plecos they often develop this kind of bloating caused by septicemia. If the black worm water is turning red then the worms are dying. Plecos which are fed discus beef heart also develop the same problem so I quit using beef heart as I mainly work with wild Discus and the pretty colored smaller plecos.

Hopefully the remaining fish will be fine and obtaining male P. compta should not be difficult.
Good luck.

[Barbie]

Is the 6.6 pH the actual tank? Or the tap water? You don't mention if you've tested for ammonia or nitrites? What are your nitrates? To be honest, this looks like what happens with the pH crashes in a tank full of plecos, IME.

Barbie

[Maccus]

Wow, good you have located the source of the problems... I wouldn't have guessed. Hope there are no more losses.

[rhibear]

Update: Last night I tore down their normal tank, and destroyed hundreds of leeches, on caves, plants, in the sand, and in the canister filter.
I also took the caves from QT and several leeches. I had read that the leeches in black worms are harmless which is why I wasn't completely anal about searching and removing. Now, I don't believe that a leech that will bite me wouldn't bite a fish living in the same space.

Before that, I pulled out my API test kit I retested the water in the main tank instead of relying on the easy strip.
pH 6.4/5 (I use local river rocks to keep the pH balanced between water changes)
nitrite 0
ammonia 0
nitrates 10
I also usually run purigen and matrix in their canister filter, however they will be in QT with a sponge filter until I can get some potassium permanganate to clean the filter of leech eggs.

I did a large water change and vacuumed all leeches I could see, replacing the water with RO and a little Melafix to help with the torn fins and open wounds. All of the fish are looking much improved, certainly not 100% but the redness is almost gone. The fish that was releasing eggs dropped another in the night but is looking less-not bloated now.
All in all I am feeling much more positive about their outcome at the moment.

[Unungy]

Great to see you were able to get to the root of the problem.
I am sure they will be fine.

This was a good topic, those marks on their fins looked in deed from territorial battles as stated by Larry before.