Synodontis Multipunctatus QT?

[redfan]

Are you kidding me???

Have already added the 1st day dose and thrown away the carbon (have ordered replacement)... I thought something like Exit would be pretty much fine it does state its fine with sensitive fish.

Should I not dose anymore and just follow your advice? Sorry, but you have to look at this from my point of view here too. I have spent the last week running back and forward to the lfs, testing water, water changing and spending ever increasing amounts of money on things like extra hiding places etc.

Yes we can all say it's what one should do, however I do not have a bottomless pit of cash nor do I have that much more energy. I hope you can understand this sidguppy.

I will follow the consensus of advice from much more experienced keepers than I am as I always have, however bear in mind I am actually ill myself which is not to say anything as such, other than atm I am spending around 2 hours a day on my tanks. Just trying to do the best I can and as above I will follow the advice given.

How can I remove the med without carbon (which is going to take several days to arrive)? (assuming that's what people think needs to be done)

Many thanks

[Marc van Arc]

Are you kidding me???
Yes we can all say it's what one should do, however I do not have a bottomless pit of cash nor do I have that much more energy. I hope you can understand this sidguppy.

No, he isn't.
Moreover, the fact that salt is way cheaper than all those meds will leave you some cash as well.
I had some serious (resistant) Ich problems last year and the only thing that worked in the end was indeed raising the temperature, adding (extra) oxygen and sea salt.
I wish I had known before, for it would have saved me a lot of cherished fishes and an enormous amount of money spent on useless medications....

[redfan]

Marc, So from what you are saying .. I need to add carbon to the tank ASAP (I could remove 2 pouches from the Fluval 305 in the 65G tank and add it to the 30G's 205)??

Sorry I know what your saying regarding cash etc but at the moment I'm just starting to feel very overwhelmed with everything

If I added carbon from the other tank, would it remove the med quickly (added the med about 5pm GMT)

Many thanks

[redfan]

**UPDATE**

Have done a 40% water change just now did not add any carbon. Going to repeat the water change when I get up and then do the salt thing (going to just wait for the paid for carbon, hoping the 2 40% water changes will remove the med). Would this be ok?

Cheers

[MatsP]

Just to further the confusion:
http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/fresh ... eated.html
doesn't mention any copper compound.
Acridine, Malachite Green, Methylene blue and Methylene violet are the active ingredients.

--
Mats

[redfan]

Thanks for that Mats lol .. that was my understanding of the Exit as well. But as I have always said, I will do what is perhaps the best idea.

I did notice after adding the med all of the syno's were hanging on the glass at front of tank (first time ever). pretty sure that was the med.

Either way have done a 40% water change (syno's acting more normally now), so at this point am going to do another 40% today and add the marine salt as guessing this is likely the safest approach.

To confirm, I use Marine salt yes? and also what would the measurements be in tea spoons (if possible)? Is it best to mix the salt in a jug of tank water or add it straight to the tank?

Many thanks and hopefully I can get this sorted once and for all.

Cheers

[MatsP]

Ideally, measure the salt on a precise set of scales - you can get a set of basic digital scales that are precise to 1g from your local supermarket for around £10.

Unfortunately, it depends on the grain size (and of course, teaspoons aren't alll the same either - an official measuring teaspoon IN Europe is 5ml). I measured some Sainsbury's sea-salt (grain size around 2mm) in the teaspoon measuring spoon (you know those that come in a set of different sizes), which weighs 4g, but a level regular teaspoon came to 6g. (No, I didn't do 5-10 of each to get a better average). Using the regular cooking salt (grain size around 0.25mm - regular salt grains), measuring one teaspoon comes to 6g.

--
Mats

[redfan]

Thanks Mats, Sadly I am not going to be able to get the digital scales as tbh I'm wiped out and using the last of available cash on new vac for my 65G tank and marine salt.

I will have to try and best guess it using a 5ml spoon, sorry but I have little choice at this point, however I will ask a friend if they happen to have digital scales first.

Many thanks, will keep ya all posted.

[MatsP]

My point above is that your teaspoon will not measure precisely, and if you overdose too much, your fish will be unhappy with that too. However, being from the rift lakes, they should be able to withstand a decent amount of salt.

So if you count on 6g per spoon, you should be reasonably safe [unless your teaspoons are really not teaspoons, but dessert spoons!]. Make sure that's LEVEL spoons, not heaped!

--
Mats

[redfan]

Right I sent the missus down to the lfs to pick this stuff up (while I started this 40% water change).

She has come back with API Aquarium salt which as the label states is made from evaporated sea water and is for the use of treating fish diseases in freshwater tanks.

It states that I add 1 rounded tablespoon per 20L so for me that would be 5 tablespoons (125L tank minus 20ltr or so for substrate etc).

Now by table spoons I assume it means ordinary dinner spoon / desert spoon (the kind one would get in a basic cutlery kit) and not a teaspoon?

Also, as it does not mention should I just add it direct to the aquarium (I have now finished the water change) or should I mix it up in a 2ltr jug?

Sorry for all the questions but really do not want to mess this up Thanks guys

[MatsP]

A tablespoon is three teaspoons (15ml) officially in europe. So that would be approximately 15g (12-18g) according to the above teaspoon measures. 15g per 20 liter is half of what Alex is suggesting.

Yes, mix it in bucket or jug, and pour it in a bit at a time.

Bear in mind that you will still have a fair amount of your medication in the tank, as two 40% water changes will still leave 36% of the original content. (first 40% water change leaves 60%, the second water change removes 40% of those 60% = 24% of the original => 40% + 24% = 64%, leaving 36% in the water).

--
Mats

[redfan]

Cheers Mats

I really appreciate all this I will (given as you say the measurements are a little under given the previous calculations)treat it for the full tank size so an extra tablespoon.

Will be adding it later this afternoon as need to raise the temp up to 28 / 29C too. Will slowly add it over a few hours.

I appreciate that meds will still be present in the tank and will continue with another 40% water changes the next day or two. I will also top up the salt daily to allow for this. Assuming it's a case of change (for example) 60litres water .. add another 3 spoons of salt to allow for that.

Thanks again, will update asap. Daft thing is since doing the 2 40% water changes the syno's actually look fairly OK and swimming as I think they should. Obviously though the Ich is still present on at least 3 of them that I can see.

[MatsP]

Are you 100% sure you don't have problems with nitrite or ammonia in the tank, given that water changes make them happier?

--
Mats

[redfan]

Yeah pretty certain Mats, I checked the water twice last week Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0 and Nitrate approx 10 ph about 7.5. The LFS also checked my water from both the tanks they have been in (over this last week) they get the same 3 results and the ph at lfs is 7.6

I may run test this evening a few hours after feeding just to be triple sure, but as above, confident all is ok.

The big water changes if anything would only serve to reduce the nitrate further. Also the syno's were swimming as they are now before I added the ESHA Exit.

Hope that makes sense.
Thanks

[Marc van Arc]

I may have missed it in the conversation, but did you also add a diffusor for extra oxygen and raise the temperature?
Also - not meant to be sour - your missus should have gone to the supermarket instead of an LFS for salt - way cheaper....
I may have confused you with the sea salt, but kitchen salt would have done the job too. As long as it doesn't contain iodine. Sorry for that.

[redfan]

Marc - At the moment I have increased the temp to 28C and am going to prepare the salt and add later tonight. The API stuff was actually only £4 and at least saves my own personal confusion as it gives measurement guide for using a spoon.

As for diffuser, what do you mean? I have the (very fast) filter on full power and have an air stone working in that tank. The current and movement on the surface is very significant .. atm the tank is around 27C (slowly increasing to the set 28C) I do not see any of the fish hanging on the surface.

If you can elaborate re diffuser I would be grateful. Equally I could shoot another vid so you can see the surface agitation. I could potentially add another air stone (have a free line on the pump)if required, but from what I can see there seems plenty of movement.

Many thanks

[Marc van Arc]

4003650_Diffusor.jpg

This is what I mean. It's a kind of "airstone" which is attached to the end of the outlet hose of the filter (meaning: the hose from the filter back to the tank) and gets air from an additional small hose which has to sit above water (obviously). I hope this makes sense.
Anyway, if your surface is moving sufficiently, don't bother.

[redfan]

OK Marc, that makes sense now and the picture is pretty cool tbh. But yeah the surface has a lot of movement atm. I will obviously check the tank regularly while doing all this anyway.

Cheers

[catfishhunter]

I have had experience with baby petricola's doing something very similar and they quickly died after adding salt and turning up the heat . Even with added oxygen flow . If you have the asian strain of ich it may already be to late . The 2 best product's I used were Aquari-Sol and Rid Ich Plus . I have used both those product's as directed with no harm to 7 multipuntatus in the same tank when a cichlid showed sign's of common ich ( a different tank than I turned the heat up in ) . Ridding the fish and tank of the asian ich is a real pain hope you do not have that strain . For what you have it may be easier to start over . Leaving the tank empty for a week will get rid of it . Do not transfer water in any way from any tank net , siphon , vacuum etc . Might as well wait and see if you can control the problem and save the fish . Another warning to many water changes and different medicine's can also create big problem's be sure whatever you use is clearly labeled for sensitive fish . Good Luck

[redfan]

Thanks catfishhunter

Well the salt has been added now and temp up to around 28 - 29C The Syno's actually seem to have improved and certainly I have had no more fatalities since last Thursday I think it was. However I have now lost 3 of 5 german Rams that were in the tank just today They have been showing almost full body coverage of ich.

Still unsure whether it's the disease or the syno's that are taking them out though, as they seem to be going every 4 hours atm. Have also lost 2 of 4 kuhli loaches the last 2 days. Really not sure if disease / salt & heat / syno's .. Though my mind is on either salt or heat.

Not sure what I can do at this point other than to leave it as it is and continue to keep the temp up while maintaining the level of salt.

Re spreading things about my tanks .. ATM I am treating 2 tanks this way, my main tank still seems to be free of this awful disease (likely as the fish there are established and healthy). But I am using a new vac specifically for that tank and any other tools used (net etc) are run under boiling water before using in the 65G tank.

Cheers

[Maccus]

I just feel bad for you and hope you can get this cleared up ASAP. Tank wipe outs are the worst.

[redfan]

Thanks Maccus, it is all a bit difficult atm but starting to get there I think.

Just to update, it's been 5 days since adding the salt and having the temp up to 28 - 29C Currently I can only really see one of the 6 Syno's showing any sign of Ich (and he only has a few spots now)so that's a plus. However of the 5 Rams only 1 remains atm and that one like the others seems quite covered in spots.

Guessing I expect the last ram to go at some point It does leave 1 question though, Any particular reason these guys could be dying yet the syno's (seemingly) are making a recovery? Could it be the salt / temp?

Anyway, How much longer would you say to keep the level of salt as is and temp as is? I was thinking maybe 2 or 3 days after the last of any visible Ich has gone?

Also, going forward, would the Syno's be happy with water around 27 - 28C long term?

Many thanks again guys, much appreciated

[MatsP]

Of course, Rams are the complete opposite end of freshwater when it comes to hardness and pH. They live in very soft/acidic water, where S. multipuncata live in hard, alkaline water.

Edit: What I'm trying to say is that salt whilst it affects the Ich, will also affect the fish. If the fish is already weak from Ich, and you add salt which is something they don't get in nature (soft water -> low amounts of ions/minerals in the water), the stress is increased on the fish.

--
Mats

[redfan]

OK I can see your point, thanks Mats, tbh they were free (the rams) from the LFS as way of apology so added them to the syno tank as that tank is effectively in QT / Hospital.

I know this is a Catfish site, but how would the remaining Ram do in the 15G for now that has a Betta in it? That tank does have salt in it too but a much lower level as I am still unsure whether Ich is an issue there.

Many thanks again

[Marc van Arc]

but how would the remaining Ram do in the 15G for now that has a Betta in it?

Don't, pls don't do this. The only thing you do is spread the disease over your tanks.
Leave the Ram were it is now and if it doesn't improve - while the Synos do - you should consider getting rid of it (sorry to be blunt).

To me it was actually a surprise to find that there were Microgeophagus in the Syno tank. I read about the kuhliis from the beginning, but your last post made clear were the Rams came from.
I think you should add such fishes to a healthy tank the next time (if any), but I take it you have already found that out yourself by now given the sad result.

[redfan]

Marc - Yes I have found that out and it's all rather sad tbh. I did think that about adding the Ram elsewhere just after I posted it so that won't be happening. I am not going to put it to sleep, I will at least give it a fighting chance and it does seem better re the Ich.

Time will tell I guess. But obviously the happy part here is that the syno's are definitely improving and I am finding them extremely stunning and interesting fish to watch. They will actively swim upside down on the surface to get flake food, not to mention their relish for catfish pellets.

Obviously atm I am limiting the amount of food they get, but they all look so much healthier than a week ago. Indeed it's been a week now since I lost one

The Kuhli's, 2 of them died, The other three like the syno's are looking pretty good and very active again now.

Thanks again

[Marc van Arc]

Anyway, How much longer would you say to keep the level of salt as is and temp as is? I was thinking maybe 2 or 3 days after the last of any visible Ich has gone?

Oops, almost missed the important part....
I would wait at least a week after you think all is well. Only then I'd lower the temp gradually (1 degree per week). The salt has to go via waterchanges, so that could take some time as well.
I've kept my Synos on 26 C for many years - I'm not sure, but guess a constant 27-28 C could be a bit high. Pls bear in mind that the higher the temp, the lower the level of dissolved oxygen.
Hence our tip wrt the treatment of your disease: a temporary temp rise + extra oxygen -)

[redfan]

Anyway, How much longer would you say to keep the level of salt as is and temp as is? I was thinking maybe 2 or 3 days after the last of any visible Ich has gone?

Oops, almost missed the important part....
I would wait at least a week after you think all is well. Only then I'd lower the temp gradually (1 degree per week). The salt has to go via waterchanges, so that could take some time as well.
I've kept my Synos on 26 C for many years - I'm not sure, but guess a constant 27-28 C could be a bit high. Pls bear in mind that the higher the temp, the lower the level of dissolved oxygen.
Hence our tip wrt the treatment of your disease: a temporary temp rise + extra oxygen -)

Indeed Marc and as I have said before the water turnover with the filter and airstone creates a quite fast surface agitation. Well a week will be this Sunday so will be leaving it until a week Sunday, obviously monitoring all the while for changes etc.

As I think the Cat-E-Log entry suggests the temp will be lowered in a week or so along with diluting the salt from the water.

Many thanks