Synodontis Multipunctatus QT?

[redfan]

Hi,

I just managed to rehome my crayfish and now have my 15G tank free which I intend to put various species from my 30G tank.

Yesterday I got 6 4" Synodontis Multipunctatus from a good LFS which I have added to the 15G tank for the purpose of QT. The tank has a sand substrate and I have added two smaller pieces of bogwood for cover.

This was until literally yesterday my crays tank, I have hoovered the sand and changed half the water before adding the Cuckoos, did checked the water last night and the tank is fully cycled.

My question is, will this 15G be sufficient to house them until they can be added to the 30G (3 foot)? (eventually they will go in a 65G tank) Also, at the moment I am having to leave the light off the 15G tank as when it's on they seem very skittish and just try to (cramped) hide under one of the pieces of wood.

Is this normal (they were added yesterday afternoon)? also I have added today a small amount of live bloodworm (which was left over from feeding my other fish) none of them show any interest.

Of more concern for me is that one of them flashes from time to time (rolls to a side then almost skips itself of the substrate akin to what you may see with ich). Any thoughts on what I should do at this point, or could it just be a stress reaction?

Many thanks

[tomr]

Hiding on their first days is normal.

[Birger]

My question is, will this 15G be sufficient to house them until they can be added to the 30G (3 foot)?

It is small, do not add any others and get them out of there as soon as you are sure they are okay...and it should work.

they seem very skittish and just try to (cramped) hide under one of the pieces of wood.

Is this normal (they were added yesterday afternoon)?

That is normal, give them some time, I strongly suggest give them more to hide in.

none of them show any interest.

With new synos this is normal as well, they will get braver.

Of more concern for me is that one of them flashes from time to time (rolls to a side then almost skips itself of the substrate akin to what you may see with ich). Any thoughts on what I should do at this point, or could it just be a stress reaction?

Most likely this is some sort of damage from transit and nets, best thing is clean water , good food(but not too much in such a small tank) these are quite durable so should recover nicely but of course you need to keep a close eye on them. Do not dump in any meds without knowing there is for sure a problem(just adds to the stress).

Birger

[redfan]

Thanks Tomr

Birger - Thanks for your replies. Since switching the light off again they are all out and about, it would appear that the bloodworm has gone now.

Regarding when to move them, my original thought was maybe a week? I can bag up the 30G fish anytime I need to tranx, thinking bagging easier as going to be more stressful moving the cuckoos then netting current fish from that tank to move into the 15G, what's your thoughts? Also as both of these tanks are fully cycled and use same water, assuming OK to just net and put straight in 30G?

The 30G is going to need a full clean (wipe algae from glass) and clean the external filter out) also will be changing 50% water in that tank too. The tank will only have 5 Kuhli loaches in it when the cuckoos go in.

As for the possible damage to one of them, I have changed another 10% water today and will be checking the readings this evening again. I will keep an eye on all of them. If I had known they were all 4" in size I would have possibly moved the fish into the 15G and added these guys to the 30G from purchase, hindsight is a great thing

One last thing if its ok, I noticed at the lfs yesterday they were all hanging on the sides of the glass which is what they are doing here too, is this normal? Also, I have noticed 2 or 3 of them come right up to the surface and swim upside down on the surface, is this something to worry about?

Sorry for all the questions, these are fish I have not really had before so trying to get as many of my concerns addressed ASAP (I got them as always really loved everything I have read / seen and not often my LFS has them).

Many thanks again

[Birger]

Should point out you most likely have

Synodontis grandiops

as opposed to

Synodontis multipunctata

It is more commercially available, the two were thought to be more or less the same until just a few years ago, either one is a great fish mind you.

Also as both of these tanks are fully cycled and use same water, assuming OK to just net and put straight in 30G?

Yes

One last thing if its ok, I noticed at the lfs yesterday they were all hanging on the sides of the glass which is what they are doing here too, is this normal? Also, I have noticed 2 or 3 of them come right up to the surface and swim upside down on the surface, is this something to worry about?

Give them more cover, they like something they can go into, for now an upturned plant pot or stones.
It is not uncommon to check out the surface, will do it less with cover.
They will actually be braver the more cover they have as they will swim about knowing they can dash away if needed.

Here is a picture of how mine are setup, they can dash among the stones when they feel the need but spend most of their time along the strip of sand at the front or above the stones.

Birger

[redfan]

Thanks Birger

I could create an open ended stone cave for them, obviously the lack of space in the 15G tank limits the amount of cover I can put in. I can do a short video (in blue tank light) if it helps.

As for what species they are, how would one tell the difference? If the one in the picture are Cuckoos then they are pretty much identical.

Did think it was a cover thing.

Regarding moving them .. I would personally like to move them in like a day or two (tomorrow or Tues) would that be too soon and too stressful? (from a QT point they would only be in the 30G with kuhli loaches so little difference)

Thanks again

[Birger]

This is the best way, from the data page

S. grandiops and S. multipunctata are most reliably separated by pectoral-fin ray counts with S. grandiops having 1 pectoral fin spine with 7 soft rays and S. mutipunctata having a count of 1, 8 . The soft pectoral-fin elements (i.e. the rays) are almost always branched (the only exception being the last one or two rays, which are sometimes unbranched) a ray is counted as one at its base before it branches out. Also keep in mind the larger adult size of S. multipunctata.

They would be more comfortable in the larger tank...may outcompete the loaches for food.

[redfan]

I will try and identify them in a few days if I can, but would be a little peeved if not given they were labelled as S. multipunctata and this lfs does seem to know what they are doing. When I have been checking with them they always check there supplier lists and give L numbers for plecs etc. Also these guys were from what I was told wild caught where they have about 12 1.5" tank bred specimens.

I will try and sort out the 30G and move them there in a day or two if you guys feel it would be safe enough to do so?

Have included a video of them this evening. Many thanks again.

[redfan]

Update -

Just gone in to do a water change and found one of the S. Multipunctatus dead more of a worry I don't think its the one I mentioned that may have been injured in transit.

Have included a couple of pictures he looks perfectly fine. Any ideas as to why this has happened? Also would it now be a good idea to just go for it (clean the 30G, bag up the current fish in it) and move the Cuckoo's this evening?

I have been having an issue in the 30G tank, have lost 3 panda cory's over about 12 days .. I feel that its been due to the tank being overcrowded. I have rehomed the plecs from the 30G tank and other than the hard to catch Kuhlis the cuckoos will be in that tank alone.

Recently I had to change my water conditioner as my lfs no longer stocks the one I have been using for months, wondering if this is the problem .. hmm

Birger - Regarding ID I did try to count the rays but was pretty tricky, maybe you can get a better idea from the pic

Thanks guys

[Richard B]

ID - looks like Grandiops to me but it isn't a great pic (side on)

I would check all water parameters in the QT & if they're ok, then don't move the fish - you're just adding further stress, particularly if there may be something amiss with the 30G with pandas dying.

[redfan]

Just done the water tests, the tank seems to be cycled as it should be ...

Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0 and Nitrate 10 - 20ppm (using API Master kit)

I think I read they can be sensitive to Nitrates?? Could this be a problem?

Many thanks again guys

[MatsP]

Doubt very much that nitrate is a problem.

--
Mats

[redfan]

Cheers Mats I will just keep an eye on everything, but am likely to move them ASAP

[Jools]

Hmmm, did they come from a typical (~pH 8 ) tank at the LFS? If so, what's the pH in the Q tank?

Cheers,

Jools

[redfan]

Truthfully Jools I don't really know the lfs ph, however mine is around 7 - 7.6 assuming the lfs would be similar as its local to me.

Only other thing I thought of was that I added some more sand to the tank before adding the Cuckoos it's the same as the other (pool sand) only gave it a quick whirl around in dechlor water before adding to the tank.

I still feel despite the stress for the fish involved the best thing I can do atm (given the water seems OK) leave them there tonight and clean the 30G tomorrow remove all but the kulhi then just move the cuckoos straight to the 30G??

Also, the more I am thinking about it the more I suspect the change in tap water conditioner .. Was using Nutrafin Aqua+ but had to change to Interpet Tap Safe (which contains aloe vera too). The deaths of the Panda's n the 30G coincides with the switch of product.

I change about 10% water daily in my tanks (due to waste of plecs and left over food from the Jaguars) and wondering, could it be possible the aloe vera has built up. My LFS now has the Aqua+ again and I will going back to it tomorrow anyway.

I really appreciate all the input, I am forever learning and just trying to do right by my fish Thanks

[Jools]

Often these fish are offered for sale in higher pH tanks - because it's the right way to keep them. I wonder if they're a bit rough due to a bit of a pH shock?

Jools

[redfan]

OK, I will give them a ring tomorrow and find out, if it is a ph thing, what is the likely outcome? will they survive and adapt?
Saying that, I may just go and test mine, not actually done it in quite sometime.

[Birger]

Birger - Regarding ID I did try to count the rays but was pretty tricky, maybe you can get a better idea from the pic

Sorry, the pictures are not clear enough.

How are the others doing?

Tanganyikans can be delicate at times when it comes to a quick change in water conditions.

Birger

[redfan]

Hi, me again lol

Birger - Not good, found another 2 dead this morning. Have returned all 3 bodies to the lfs with a water sample .. My ph is identical to the lfs (7.6) where they have had no deaths. My other water suggests perfectly cycled tanks (that's from the lfs tests and mine).

They gave me another 3, upon arrival back home I found another of the original 6 dead Am now wondering if it was the transport, all 6 4" cuckoos where put in 1 large bag. It's the only thing I can think of anymore.

I have this morning after finding the other 2 dead moved the remaining 3 to the 30G tank .. I cleaned the 30G filter, and changed 50% water before adding these guys. Am also back to using my usual de chlor treatment. Obviously as above have found another dead since getting back. The new 3 seem to be better in the bags atm (acclimatising) the orignal 6 in there 1 bag were leaping out of the water by the time I got home.

Any other thoughts or suggestions would be welcome at this point as I'm pulling my hair out. The 2 remaining original ones are on the bottom of the tank motionless but I can see gill movement.

Many thanks, and sorry for all these Q's / headaches I will be leaving the 30G tank light off for at least 2 days, is this a good idea?

[MatsP]

Am now wondering if it was the transport, all 6 4" cuckoos where put in 1 large bag. It's the only thing I can think of anymore.

Don't think so - unless you took a day or two to get them into the new home? I picked up some plecos on Friday evening in Germany. They stayed in the bags over the weekend and were fine when I put them into my tank yesterday afternoon. I'm not sure how long they were in the bag before I got them, but they were definitely in a plastic bag the best part of 72 hours, if not more. I did change the air in the bags, but other than that, they were in the same water for that time. [I also did turn the heating in the room up to 26'C to keep them nice and warm].

--
Mats

[redfan]

Mats - Did not that was even possible tbh, the cuckoos were in the bag for at most 2 hours.

Am just at a loss as to what's going on with them tbh... hopefully at least the new 3 will thrive in the 30G, if I'm honest I fully expect the other 2 originals to go the next day or something

Just so puzzling as not had this happen to me before.

** UPDATE**

Since adding the new 3 with the remaining 2 and turning off the lights in the 30G tank they are now all active and staying in the low - mid region of the tank, actually seem to be playing. Going to touch a huge piece of wood here and say the behaviour they are displaying atm seems more normal, they are hanging on the glass but in the low - mid region whilst also swimming about alot.

Maybe over the worst .. Can only give it a few days and see what happens at this point I guess, but thought I would mention this.

[redfan]

Just to update, had another death this morning, just got back from the lfs with 2 replacements so the numbers will be back up to 6!

Not sure if this mornings was one of the original 6 but assuming so. Shame really as the 5 managed a whole day and half without any incident. Hoping I maybe over the worst but only time will tell. Will keep this updated as it goes along if that's ok.

Cheers

[worton[pl]]

Hello,

sad news about dying synos. They are usually the hardiest fish in tank, it is really hard to kill a healthy syno.
I would strongly recommend not taking anymore fish from LFS untill you will get a hold on a situation. A WC fish have a really long and usually very bad road to go before they find new, destination home. Firstly they are catched in a Lake (with tanganyikan synos), spend some time in Africa (travelling usually from lake shores to exporter's facility by a truck, usually as long as few hundreds kilometers) - exporters usually know what they are doing. The horror starts after they come from importer to wholesalers/pet shops. They are placed in not always perfect water with all unkown for them bacteries. Criticial point with all fishes is unpacking them after transport from Africa (or other continents) - when fishs meet all those little, strange for them bacteries in totally new environment. Many times a fishtank which just a month ago was holding fish from Asia now is holding fish from Africa - you get a point, right?. A lot of importers usually just add antibacterial medicines to water to lower possibilities of massive deaths - this is common practice but it really don't help fish a lot, it keeps them alive till they go to pet shop or new owner and then if not properly care fish will die because of high levels of stress in relatively short time which significantly lowered their natural resistance to all kind of sickness.

I'm not recommending adding medicines to water. You have made not a best thing when you after just few days moved fish from one tank to another - give them time, give them as much hiding spots as possible. You don't have to buy roots, build caves, you can use flowerpots - they need time and calm surrounding. You can turn off lights in a tank for a week or so, it will also help them. Also water from filter outlet was making a strong current, try to minimalize it by adding some rocks, driftwood, flowerpots. Change as you did about 10% of water daily. When they stop dying and start eating nicely, being out all day and happilly flapping their fins to you when you approach a tank - it will be time to think about fixing your water parameters to more tanganyikan and purchasing some more synos. "Scratching" on sand may be caused by some kind of damage during transport, bad water quality, too low ph, or - as it is usually with WC fishes - bacterial shock. If they are dying one after another (in a day or two of brake - this is almost for sure this reason) - check their tails. If they are not spreading caudal fins fully and look like they have some kind of problem of moving tail - it is bad sign. Also if breathing is heavy - but it is not easy to spot with synos. On your movie one of synos in hanging on a glass in a corner in a full light and with you near tank - it is a sign for EXTREMELY high stress fish is in. This is the way syno is telling you - man I'm going crazy, turn off lights, give me more hiding places or I will die in this new, strange bacterial soup.

Your job now is giving them as many hiding spots as possible (you will be able to remove part of them in future).

I have also one more question - what is your water hardness?

One more time - give them time, proper hiding places (a lot of them, a LOT) and good quality food. You can try feeding them during daytime. If you add much more hiding places they will even eat during a day. But if not - don't try to "force feed" them. Just give them food just before you go sleeping. If they won't stop dying then it will be time to think about using medicines. Now try to lower their stress levels as much as possible - fish in proper environment have really good immune system and can handle a lot of problems without medicines.

[redfan]

worton - I can entirely see the point you are making here. The syno's show perfectly healthy fin display, no holding back of fins from what I can see.

I certainly think leaving the lights off for a few days will be of great help and it's what I intend to do from here on in. Currently it's near 11.30pm here, I have just a lamp on next to that tank which only really lights up the left side of tank and nowhere like the brightness of the tanks lights. Also atm only 2 of them are in that corner the others are coming up to the front I think wanting food which I will add shortly (maybe 7 or 8 small catfish pellets)

I have heard the plant pot suggestion previously, what kind are you talking about, plastic / ceramic? Do they need to be soaked before adding? Sorry to ask maybe a simple question, I would like to add something like this as atm the cover is a little limited. Also (maybe simple again) would you say stand them up right or on the side?

Sorry but I do not know the water hardness as tbh have never really had the need as such (I spend plenty on test kits and other maintenance items atm). Not trying to say it's not important, just that I do not have a kit for this (Have API master only).

Many thanks for your detailed reply, its much appreciated and I will take it all in and do the best I can.

**EDIT** I have now fed the syno's and they seemed to go for it with great relish On another note, I have (as suggested) turned down the outflow from the filter (to half output) however as always happens with it, whenever adjusting the flow control it releases a certain amount of gunk (guessing slime from the pipes) will this be OK? (cannot go changing water now as all lights off in fish room)

[Birger]

I have heard the plant pot suggestion previously, what kind are you talking about, plastic / ceramic? Do they need to be soaked before adding?

Something like in the picture below, you could just cut out a piece of the lip as well, don't leave any sharp edges and no finish on the pot, these are about 4 " and 6" diam.and super cheap to get.

Birger

[redfan]

Thanks Birger, I'm assuming they are unglazed (terracotta) pots? I will try and pick at least 1 today.

[Jools]

Thanks Birger, I'm assuming they are unglazed (terracotta) pots? I will try and pick at least 1 today.

Yes.

Jools

[redfan]

Cheers Jools ... Now to actually get one

[redfan]

Update -

Have added a 8" barrel ornament from lfs with lots of large entry / exit holes .. not my thing really (tacky) but serves a purpose and they seem to like it.

Think I have seen what has been killing these guys off .. Ich! Guessing combination of Ich and stress of moving is likely why so many were dying so fast.

Have just seen 3 of them with a fair covering of what looks like salt, and also 1 of them "flashing" against the gravel. Pretty certain its spot

Just going to remove the carbon and add ESHA exit to the tank .. would they manage a temp rise from 26 - 28C? obviously this will speed up the ich cycle.

Will update as I go along. This is actually going to be quite a good log of sorts for me going forward.

[sidguppy]

ESHA will kill them off pretty quickly.

the old meds contain loads of copper and Synodontis can't handle copper

the best way to rid Rift species of ich is
1: raise the temperature to 28-29'C
2: add oxygen!! warm water lowers the oxygen level, so you have to compensate. a diffusor hooked to the filter outlet or a powerhead will do
3: add sea salt (not kitchen salt!), the kind the marine reef keepers buy. add up to at least 1,5-2 grams a liter (convert to UK gallons).

keep it that way for a week and you'll be rid of the ich