common names vs. scientific ones

[Acanthicus]

Hi,

I had this topic in my mind for weeks now, but always missed to write it down.

But - as always - scientific names are preferred to avoid possible misunderstandings like the above.

I would appreciate it if more people would think that way. Those common names are just awful. We had several threads during the last few days where nobody, or at least some, didn´t know what fish the topic is about. If I would have more time now I could post the links now, but I don t.

cheers,

[CoryWally]

Like it or hate it, common names have been around as long as fish shops have and will tend to be the most information 90% of aquarists will be able to comprehend.

IMO, we need to cater for all-comers on Planet Catfish - experienced and hobbyists, its not Planet Siluriformes.

Of course, I subscribe to scientific names where there is ambiguity over common names, or when L numbers have been superceded by formal description.

I also respect the fact that many PC followers are not so used to English-based common names.

Let's not diss posters for using common names if its obvious what they are talking about and where a polite reference to the scientific name is all that is required.

Mark.

[RickE]

I agree with Mark. Let's not forget this is a hobby we are talking about, where people have varying levels of involvement and knowledge. Whilst I like the unambiguous nature of scientific names I can understand that they are not for everyone.

[Jools]

Oh, this one will run. So, my view is it depends on the context of the post. If you get a newbie posting "help with my whiptails disease" and you reply with something like "please call it Hemiloricaria" then all you're going to do is alienate the poster and probably disadvantage the fish.

Otherwise we need to use scientific names to get the job done.

Those of us who have several hundred scientific names in our heads have a responsibility to encourage use of scientific names, not mandate them.

Jools

PS it would be helpful to review the topics that made you mention this. Better for our discussion...

[RickE]

Obviously in this instance scientific names would be pretty much critical to giving any useful advice but I still think their use should be encouraged rather than demanded.

[Bas Pels]

Whilst I like the unambiguous nature of scientific names I can understand that they are not for everyone.

Although I do agree with the rest Rick posted, I can't help not agreeing with the quoted part.

A common name might suffice on a local forum, but PC is as global as you can find. The only names which are known are scientific.

This forumn is in English, and the only people I see on this forum disliking the use of scientific names are native to English

So we, the others, will have to use the language AND know the common names? Speaking only for myself, I shall not comply

The least a question poster can do is make his question understood

[MatsP]

Bas, I completely agree.

However, to many (new) users, Clown Pleco is closer to what they know than Panaque maccus (of course, it may also be Peckoltia vittata or some other pleco...)

However, I'm well familiar with common names being different in differet countries. In Sweden, we have an early summer flower called a Bluebell (translated to English). In Sweden, that is Campanula rotundifolia, but if I say "Bluebell" here, it means Hyacinthoides non-scripta. Just to confuse it further, in America, it means Mertensia virginica, and in Scotland Bluebell actually is the same as in Sweden.

--
Mats

[Bas Pels]

A more fishy example, cardinalfish is in NL Paracheirodon axelrodi. In Germany it is Tanichthys albonubes, a fish which is less colorfull, most often far less expensive and they require different circumstances.

We refer to this latter fish as Chinese Danio, quite an incorrect name, as it is not a Danio....

[RickE]

we, the others, will have to use the language AND know the common names? Speaking only for myself, I shall not comply

I think you have taken this the wrong way Bas, I was not for a second suggesting that if you are already comfortable with the scientific names you should learn the common names. What I am suggesting is that we should all be tolerant of those that are not used to scientific names. Otherwise PC becomes a bit exclusive.

[Jools]

Otherwise PC becomes a bit exclusive.

And that's the point.

So, newbies use common names. The fact of the matter is they if they buy a

Gulper catfish

then how are they meant to know that common name applies to more than one species? Or indeed in a different (English speaking) market.

If, because the poster didn't use a scientific name, this seems beneath oneself, then just don't post. Best, is just to say you're not sure what is meant by that common name, can the OP post the scientific?

That, to my mind, it is that should have happened and would have provided a bit of helpful education too.

Reading the full thread, the OP maybe well have no clue what everyone is talking about (because no one has fully explained the issue or used clog tags to provide pictures) or indeed because they don't know what OP means!

I am very keen to avoid elitism. We all didn't know scientific names once.

Jools

[Marc van Arc]

Reading the full thread, the OP maybe well have no clue what everyone is talking about (because no one has fully explained the issue or used clog tags to provide pictures) or indeed because they don't know what OP means!

I thought I replied decently. Apparently not, so I have deleted my replies from the thread.

[Acanthicus]

Hi,

I also respect the fact that many PC followers are not so used to English-based common names.

I am not. I do not refer to all common names in general, I think I might didn´t point that out clearly enough. But what do you assume with "Tiger pleco"? Panaqolus sp. "L 2", Hypancistrus sp. "L 66", Panaqolus sp. "L 374" and much more Panaqolus (or Panaque, however). Many different species are called "Tiger Pleco".
I don´t want to diss anybody.

The least a question poster can do is make his question understood

Thats a very good point:
"What do I have to feed my Snowball pleco?"
L 142?, L 201?, L 102?, Ancistrus sp. "Snowball"?

Same with this one:

A more fishy example, cardinalfish is in NL Paracheirodon axelrodi. In Germany it is Tanichthys albonubes, a fish which is less colorfull, most often far less expensive and they require different circumstances.
We refer to this latter fish as Chinese Danio, quite an incorrect name, as it is not a Danio....

"What water temperature do my cardinalfish need?" It´s not really easy to help people that way.

I don´t have any problems to google "raphael catfish", even if I get two species.

- "Tiger plec": http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =4&t=34195
- "gulper catfish": http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 18#p230455
- "leopard cory": http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =4&t=33994
- "snowball pleco": http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... ll#p228332

Just a few ones I remember now, I didn´t write them all down.

[Jools]

Reading the full thread, the OP maybe well have no clue what everyone is talking about (because no one has fully explained the issue or used clog tags to provide pictures) or indeed because they don't know what OP means!

I thought I replied decently. Apparently not, so I have deleted my replies from the thread.

You replied very well, but what if the OP has no idea what

Ageneiosus

is.

Jools

[Marc van Arc]

The OP has been a member for nearly 3 years. Of course I could have used clog tags, yet I expect the OP to be aware of the Quick find for instance.

[Jools]

@Daniel

Ah, so you meant the use of ambiguous common names? That makes more sense.

Again, I think it's then down to those wishing to reply and help out to clear up which species before proceeding.

Jools

[Shane]

I am very keen to avoid elitism.

I do not see the link between knowing the proper scientific name for a fish (at least one you are keeping) and elitism. How is knowing a fish's name any more elitist than knowing the proper temperature it should be maintained at or what foods it should be fed? If a poster does not know the latter two forum members will provide the correct information. That is not elitist, it is just helping someone learn. Why is a scientific name any different?

I fully agree that not every aquarist needs to make a sub-hobby of taxonomy... any more than they do fish photography, planted aquariums, or coral fragging, but (if the scientific name is known) it should be the default name used here, especially given the global nature of PC.

-Shane

[racoll]

Well, we all know that common names are useless. We can't stop people using them, so the problem is how to best deal with this.

I think the hard work has already been done: the answer is in the clog tags. We just need to promote them better, but the question is how?

It will always be hard with new or infrequent users. They need to to be relatively familiar with the site to navigate the cat-elog or use the quick find to locate their species. Then, they have to extract the correctly spelt common name, and then wrap it clog tags. The problem is that this takes both time and knowledge, and is a lot more effort than just writing the common name!

[Suckermouth]

Hey guys, I've got the answer. Just make the forum automatically detect when someone is about to post a common name that appears more than once in the Cat-eLog, and then let that poster know that they're using an ambiguous common name, list out the possibilities that are in the Cat-eLog, and prompt them to pick one and edit the post before submission. Surely that won't take hours of time to code and be well worth the time spent on implementing this function.

Kidding.

[Bas Pels]

From the above I take it that OP is Original Poster?

[sidguppy]

aye, lad, that's the bunny

OT; the main problem with common names is the international character of Planetcatfish. it's that simple

if this was a sole American or English forum, the problem likely wouldn't exist.

something definitely creeps me out, though; and it's a very clear sign of the times too

since when is knowledge or intelligence or the capability of learning something new (in this case: scientific names) elitism and hence to be disdained, frowned upon and/or ridiculed?

is being ignorant or dumb the new acceptable normal state of being and those who take the effort to learn and use the proper names are being arrogant and elitist because they do so?

that's sad.

if you believe that, then you have been played like a violin by the media and the politicians both.
for it is the uninformed that makes the best voter.

disdain for science is also 1 out of 14 symptomes of something much more sinister.

[Jools]

I do not see the link between knowing the proper scientific name for a fish (at least one you are keeping) and elitism. How is knowing a fish's name any more elitist than knowing the proper temperature it should be maintained at or what foods it should be fed?

That's a really good point, and I think I've got to explain my ideology a bit better.

First, are we saying that if someone has just walked into their LFS, bought a nice looking fish, taken it home and then asking questions about it here - should they be unanswered or told to go read a book first? They don't know the binomial and, in fact, they don't actually know temp, foods etc.

I'm coming at the elitist thing from the point of view of saying, right we know the names of the fishes we're keeping and if you don't (or can't be bothered) then we're not going to help.

Put it this way, on Saturday morning, go stand on the doorstep of your LFFS and ask every customer that has bought fish what their scientific name is as they leave the shop. Given they all tried to answer, how would it go?

Are we saying that if you can't be bothered to find out the scientific name of a fish then we're not (or less likely) to help?

Personal opinion, but I think it's much more important to know how to care for an animal than what it is called (when you already have what in most cases is a unique name for the country). I've come to this by my more recent (than fishkeeping) interest in gardening and plants. The relationship between plants (and don't even start on hybrids), plant stores and experts is very different from fishes but I approached it from the point of view of learning the scientific names of the things I was growing. I have not even got past the trees (and heather).

As an aside point, I was that annoying kid who asked for every fish I bought by the scientific name. And would sometimes correct wrong ones. Grew out of that quite quickly! (Young Jools, "I would like three of your finest Poecilia reticulata my good man". Leith walk, Edinburgh, Scotland fish store owner, "?".) - I jest but it didn't get me very far.

Second, I don't think that's what this thread is actually about. What I think it is about is assisting our international members who don't want to have to learn all the mad English common names for all the fishes they've known in the vernacular by something completely different.

I'm right behind this, and I think it should be good practice that when a fish is being discussed it should be clear which one - scientific names are the way to do that. But let's not jump on anyone using, for example,

Corydoras barbatus

.

In the example given, IMHO, I think Marc was right to assume

Asterophysus

becuase of the forum the post was in but I also think Viktor was right to ask (although using clog tags might have made is graphically easier) if we were the right gulper. This fish tends to be called Gulper in the US and Ogre in the UK. But it's a good example of checking first.

Nothing madated in all this, I'm happy to think over the discussion on shift "policy" a bit to accomodate. But I'd like it well worn over the wheels of debate first...

Jools

[Jools]

The OP has been a member for nearly 3 years. Of course I could have used clog tags, yet I expect the OP to be aware of the Quick find for instance.

Marc,

Sorry, the clog tags comment was more for Viktor than you. But I guess what I should have said is should someone have asked, "Do you mean

Asterophysus

,

Ompok

or maybe even

Ageneiosus

as all can be referred to as gulper catfish?". I'll do a quick reply on that basis.

You make a good point about quick find, however maybe it didn't work or wasn't used. Certainly, for our international friends, it is a good tool to help with all these English common names.

Jools

[Jools]

since when is knowledge or intelligence or the capability of learning something new (in this case: scientific names) elitism and hence to be disdained, frowned upon and/or ridiculed?

is being ignorant or dumb the new acceptable normal state of being and those who take the effort to learn and use the proper names are being arrogant and elitist because they do so?

that's sad.

Man, am I behind you 100%. I'd use 110% but that would show my poor grasp of maths! In the UK media this is a frequent topic and is referred to as "dumbing down".

So, the elitist thing. I would like Planet, and it's international community to as a group smarten up rather than dumb down. However, I think that's by encouragement rather than disdain.

I see a failure when someone doesn't get to interact with said community becuase they don't know a scientific name. I see success as someone who learns a new scientific name and starts using it as a result of good advice.

And I am careful of knowing my own limitations. When working with new fishes on AquaticRepublic.com, I am reminded how little I know about other freshwater fishes and the spelling of their scientific names.

That's all I mean by my fear of elitism.

Jools

[Jools]

Hey guys, I've got the answer. Just make the forum automatically detect when someone is about to post a common name that appears more than once in the Cat-eLog, and then let that poster know that they're using an ambiguous common name, list out the possibilities that are in the Cat-eLog, and prompt them to pick one and edit the post before submission. Surely that won't take hours of time to code and be well worth the time spent on implementing this function.

Kidding.

Dangerous talk.

And I know it was offered mostly in jest, but that was the idea of the clog tags to a point. There are flaws with it - for example it really bugs me that it shows whatever was in the clog tag under the photo rather the the current name.

It would not be really hard to automate the insertion of clog tags around anything that matches a binomial or common name (a pop up would be too hard I feel). But it's a dark and dim part of the forum code. Doing it so as not to really hammer the CPU would be the trick.

Jools

[Jools]

Well, we all know that common names are useless.

Yes, they are but we ALL use them as you note. We just use different ones. Imagine a funnel, all these common names are swirling around at the top, they fall into the hopper and come out as the golden nominal - the current accepted taxonomic placement.

So, it's my job from a technical standpoint to make that happen here. Which is why I really welcome all the input on this topic.

Jools

[Jools]

Just a note on last months usage stats of the site by country. It is quite interesting.

1.United States 23.51%
2.Netherlands 14.24%
3.United Kingdom 10.40%
4.Singapore 4.31%
5.Germany 3.80%
6.Brazil 3.37%
7.Canada 3.18%
8.Turkey 2.75%
9.India 2.64%
10.Australia 2.56%

Jools

[Richard B]

to navigate the cat-elog or use the quick find to locate their species. Then, they have to extract the correctly spelt common name, and then wrap it clog tags.

If you can find the species you wanna discuss in cat-e-log then just copy and paste the clog link into your post - that way no spelling errors - (my spelling is atroshus, er atrociuz, er really really bad LOL)

There are some very good points in the thread, so just a couple of points from me (& correct me if i'm off the mark):

PC should be for everyone, whether a newbie or a world authority - everyone wanting to contribute meaningfully should be most welcome (after all we all started with zero knowledge and worked our way up from there). If people use a common name like (for example) "upside down catfish" we/someone/I will take the time to help them understand it could be one of a number of african species (or an asian one) some of which need more specific requirements than some of the others.

Secondly is something that rarely happens but i hope may change more in the future: Person sees fish at store, person likes fish, person buys fish and takes it home to the tank and only then does person begin to find out about the requirements needed. More research before the purchase please - there is PC, scotcat etc etc with so much high quality information at hand or forum members swiftly responding to prevent stress/harm to the fish, the new owner etc. With the wonders of technology a pic on a cell phone when in a store can be posted on the forum for ID and advice in no time at all & if i can figure out how to do that sorta stuff surely most people can?

[Jools]

Secondly is something that rarely happens but i hope may change more in the future: Person sees fish at store, person likes fish, person buys fish and takes it home to the tank and only then does person begin to find out about the requirements needed. More research before the purchase please.

<snip>

With the wonders of technology a pic on a cell phone when in a store can be posted on the forum for ID and advice in no time at all & if i can figure out how to do that sorta stuff surely most people can.

It's funny you mention that, I have a plan about that. More soon (hopefully - it's a busy week and next week is worse!).

Jools

[Acanthicus]

Hi,

I think it´s all said, but I want to reply just to two things.

Ah, so you meant the use of ambiguous common names? That makes more sense.

well, the ambigious common names just show the problem I think. But the real problem itself is the immense use of common names in general. Common names are totally ok, but shouldn´t be used in every case. As you stated, common names are mostly used by newbies. They don´t know if it is an ambigious name or not. I am comparing all this with what I am used to in Germany. L-numbers seem to be much more popular and even the genus is sometimes told the customers. And people seem to be more interested in other facts than just a common name.

As an aside point, I was that annoying kid who asked for every fish I bought by the scientific name.

It feels like it just happened yesterday. Luckily my dealer did like me and didn´t get mad when I called him twice a week (after studying the aqualog) and asking him for special species.

In the example given, IMHO, I think Marc was right to assume

Asterophysus

becuase of the forum the post was in but I also think Viktor was right to ask (although using clog tags might have made is graphically easier) if we were the right gulper. This fish tends to be called Gulper in the US and Ogre in the UK. But it's a good example of checking first.

Don´t you normaly look for more input in books, magazines, the internet or ask friends, the dealer before you get the fish? Or at least afterwards, but than self-contained. I just don´t believe that a scientific name is that hard to learn or to understand. I think it´s just not of any interest for many people. The possible species for "gulper catfish" in this case are plenty. The customer might not know that this name is ambigious, but shouldn´t he be aware of this, if he would just google the name. Kind of hard to explain.

All in all it´s our part to make scientific names more often used, "in" and tell people.

[andywoolloo]

I recently had a thread titled something like new gold nugget, sorry i should have put an L number.

Also I did ask re food and temp, and i had read everything on this site and thru googling prior, and i have been keeping pl*cos for a few years now, I just wanted to know from people who keep them what food they preferred and what temp they kept them at .

Is that ok?

It doesnt necessarily mean that people aren't reading and researching, plus i knew how to find all the golden nugget info on this site and i did. I love this site.

I will try to use only L #s from now on.

But in my case my nugget appears to be a small spot but not for sure.