Hypancistrus debilittera vs L340

[The.Dark.One]

is there a reliable way to distinguish these? I've come across a wild export labelled as Mega Clown Plecs and I'm having difficulty telling one from the other. All the fish in the tank are different! There may even be some

Hypancistrus furunculus

mixed in.

[Acanthicus]

Hi,

the only way to distinguish between these two is the number of tooth. H. debilittera has more tooth than L 340.

L 340 has 5 or 6 tooth per "Prämaxillare" (Don´t know the english word) and H. debilittera has 9 to 12. Furthermore L 340 has 5 or 6 tooth per "Dentale" and H. debilittera 6 to 9.

H. furunculus has a cmpletely different headshape, the head is very short in comparison to L 340 and H. debilittera.

[The.Dark.One]

Hi Acanthicus

Thank you very much for this information.

Prämaxillare is Premaxillary in English
Dentale is Dentary

This is really helpful.
Thanks again

[Acanthicus]

Welcome! Thanks for the translation.

[pleco22]

Hi,
it's not easy to identify them, but in my opinion couting the teeth doesn't help:

Dentary teeth four to six, long and wide with cusps of equal length and width in worn teeth (lateral cusp slightly shorter in new ); premaxillary teeth 11–14, fairly wide (but not as wide as dentary teeth) and short, lateral and medial cusps approximately equal in width and lateral cusp slightly shorter than medial.

(Four New Hypancistrus (Siluriformes: Loricariidae) from
Amazonas, Venezuela
JONATHAN W. ARMBRUSTER, NATHAN K. LUJAN, AND D. C. TAPHORN)

This is the data for H. debilittera, you won't find much credible for L 340.

I have tried to count the teeth of my L 129, but I think you have to kill them first. Body shape is slightly different, head of the male is elongated, body is very flat. But if you ask me, the Orinocco, Bita, Meta variants of Hypancistrus have something in common with the Xingu variants. We don't know very much of them.

Regards

[Suckermouth]

Like mentioned, the tooth counts don't match up between Seidel & Evers and Armbruster et al. Dentary counts are probably not going to work (there are just too few teeth on the dentary in Hypancistrus, and teeth in loricariids are normally continuously lost, similar to sharks). Premaxillary counts might work since the Seidel & Evers and Armbruster et al. counts aren't too far from each other for H. debilittera, but I wouldn't say that it definitely works without a good series of L340 to contrast with. Plus, tooth counts really are hard to take on a live specimen.

And then of course there is the possibility that L340 and H. debilittera are the same species.

[Borbi]

Hi,

these two may be differentiated by their different headshapes (though admittedly it is much easier if you have seen it "live").

L 340 has a much more "duck-beak" like head shape, including the females.
These three L 340:



I would have immediately identified as all males based on their head shape. However, only the one on the upper right indeed was a male, the other two prove to be quite productive females.
Compare this with this picture of H. debilittera (a newly imported male, if I recall correctly):


Once you have seen that (and here comes the tricky part) you may also see differences in the head shape of males.
Bottom line is: L 340 has a duck beak like head shape, H. debilittera the typical Hypancistrus head shape.

Hope that helps,
Cheers, Sandor

[The.Dark.One]

Thanks Sandor. Do L340s still command a high price in Europe?

I've also see a very finely black and white reticulated specimen mixed in. Any ideas what it could be?

[Borbi]

Hi,

prices for L 340 have dropped considerably in recent years. They are more expensive than H. debilittera, but that is about it. Exceptions would be, of course, exceptionally marked specimen, such as the "original" Mega-Clown.
From the breeders perspective, I found the young largely unsellable already some 2 to 3 years ago and abandoned L 340. Guess that was largely because people realized that L 340 not always has "the" Mega-Clown looks.

As to the exceptional fish: I would not be surprised if it also was L 340 (or H. debilittera, for that mattter; there are some nicely marked specimen of those as well). They are, just like all these wormline Hypancistrus, extremely variable.
You would not happen to have a picture at hand..?

Cheers, Sandor

[The.Dark.One]

Thanks Sandor

I was going to take my camera but like a fool I didn't bother. Next time I am going I will take it and hopefully it will still be there and I will try and take a pic. From memory it was reminiscent of L333.

[bsmith]

Wow! "Counting teeth on a pleco". There has to be some sort of adage we can start with that one...

[Borbi]

Hi,

sorry for the OT, but:

Wow! "Counting teeth on a pleco".

...ain´t so difficult. You just have to select the "right" pleco:

Spatuloricaria sp. "Black and White" @15cm TL:


Oh, and by the way:
Yes it DID bite me when I wanted to have it in a photo tank!

Cheers, Sandor

[The.Dark.One]

Although the strikingly coloured specimen didn't appear on this visit, these are some of the fish in the tank that I mentioned:

[Yann]

Hi!!

I am pretty sure that science will consider H. debilittera and L340 as the same species...being just geographic variations

I doubt the differences are enough to have them as 2 differents species...still I wouldn't recommand mixing both together

In a few months we ll have a good exemple with 2 aquarists's species!!

Cheers
Yann

[Suckermouth]

Hi!!

I am pretty sure that science will consider H. debilittera and L340 as the same species...being just geographic variations

It is indeed possible that H. debilittera and L340 are two ends of a cline. However, this is difficult to assess without wide geographic sampling.

[The.Dark.One]

Looking at the head shape front on in the final image do you agree they are L340 then? What about the almost fully grey specimen?

[claro]

Hi,

I thing also that H. debilittera L129 and L340 are the same species, the species that is extremely variable in color.
Look into my gallery:

http://www.hypancistrus.eu/fotogalerie/ ... s-sp-l340/


Milan

[The.Dark.One]

Yeah, they do look very similar but I would like to label them as the correct L number until this is resolved scientifically. Are the almost fully grey specimens common?

[Yann]

Hi Steven!!

The fully grey specimen aren't the most common either are the very orange type...
A bunch are inbetween

Fish in picture 4 would be considered as L340 while the other would fit the debilittera, which from what I have seen is a very variable species in matter of pattern.

There are differences between the 2 but I believe that the differences aren't "different" enough to validate a new species.

I had a talk about it with Jon Armbruster when the description of debilittera came out and his opinion on L340...he was pretty clear with it being the same species...

Also many might disagree with his opinion, so far he is the leading Ichthylog with that family.
Also I respect Ingo and Hans' work, knowledge and opinion, and know many of their followers won't agree with this, but I highly believe Jon is correct regarding this...

A coming work on Hypancistrus will confirm that... Hypancistrus are highly variable species.

Cheers
Yann

[The.Dark.One]

Thanks for the info Yann