How to tell if a Tadpole Madtom is Mature? FRY PICTURES!!!

[nvcichlids]

Thanks, I am anxious to get home and see the little bugger. My brother is feeding it chopped black worms and live brine shrimp so hopefully it is getting the food and actually eating it.

[Shane]

Congrats! Very few aquarists can claim to have spawned an ictalurid.
-Shane

[nvcichlids]

The little one I guess is actually eating flake food now and freeze dried brine shrimp. We are going to be home on monday so I should have a good look at the little guy! OH, and on another website, someone stated that the adults will die soon as they die after breeding. I was told everyone is still doing good and no one has died!

[Birger]

The little one I guess is actually eating flake food now and freeze dried brine shrimp.

Good it is eating anything...My wild juvi's would not eat anything but frozen foods(bloodworms,mysis) until they were 2 1/2 inches or so then they began to eat NLS

someone stated that the adults will die soon as they die after breeding.

I guess it is possible but you seem to be proving that wrong, off the top of my head they will breed at the second year and will live 4 years or so in the wild, I can't see the ones that live longer not getting the chance to breed as being their reason for survival. I hope I get at least another year or two out of mine...we shall see.

Birger

[zenyfish]

Adding congrats. I always wanted to keep a group of these.

[nvcichlids]

Well I was searching through my breeder container where my brother put the young one and I didn't find him. I wonder if he got out into the main tank, if so, he's certainly not in for an easy ride I will continue to look for him to see if he shows up.

[MatsP]

Sorry that you lost them. At least you got fry, so you should be able to get more...

--
Mats

[nvcichlids]

I have yet to find any more eggs or fry. I still have them cruising the tank at night, few come out during the day. I did change up tank mates, as the darters I assume would easily eat eggs/fry. I put in instead 6 common shiners. These stay near the middle/top.

[Jools]

Any more on this story? Are you going to try again at the same time this year?

Jools

[chad320]

Yeah, how about an update? I just read all 4 pages and got to this...no update

[nvcichlids]

I had a tank crash about 3 months ago (and when I say crash, the stand gave way and it litterally crashed into the floor!).

I have collected another pair about a week ago (or from what I can tell is a pair) but they are small. I will take pictures of the two with their current tankmates as soon as I can get my camera back into fishmode (been doing scenic pictures for wall art for when i move into my first house!)

I will keep this post going as the year goes on and with updates.

fish are about 1.5" TL right now, but I might add another two just to help with my ratio.

I removed the jar that they hid in alot and plant to just offer rooted plants and driftwood this time around.

BTW, once I move, I am going to have an 8'x2'x2' sunfish tank with tadpole madtoms as the bottom feeders (will also have possibly a pair of bristlenose to help with algae as this tank will be naturally lit infront of a window and flag fish for hair algae eaters.)once this tank is going I expect about 20 or so madtoms to be added in. i was debating stonecats, but they would eat the sunfish fry

[apistomaster]

What kind of sunfish? Pumpkinseeds, Blue Gills and the other Lepomis spp. produce more than enough fry to spare a few hundred as mad tom snacks.

Probably not too late to breed some adults if you catch them. I think mad toms can breed for most of their lives, in season. Most aquarists never provide their natives a cooler winter water temperature and this is stressful enough to shorten their lives.

[nvcichlids]

the sunfish species that was ordered was Western Dollar Sunfish. THey only grow to 4" and with a catfish at 12", I would have an issue with them getting eaten.

[nvcichlids]

some good news (no pictures)... the female is plumping up and the male's face is filling in (swelling up?) so I am guessing they are feeling good about the tank surroundings. I have not been out to check for more or other fish, but everything I have seems to be doing good. I did get a new dipnet, which wasn't cheap! and I am antsy to use it!

[nvcichlids]

after playing around with the tank over the weekend, I have a gravid female. She was staying clear of the male, but then tis morning, neither are visible (which is out of their normal behavior). When I get home, I will be nosey and find where they went!

[Birger]

Mine were coloring up nicely, but I may have waited too long, discovered this last night as I was tranferring them to a more suitable tank to hopefully spawn in.
This one is shedding skin...the head is not out of focus but covered in the layer of skin, the new skin underneath is in good condition. You can see the genital papillae in a couple of the pictures. Most of the year they are back to that darker color with very little orange.

Other side of same fish, skin is just starting to break apart.

Quick shot with a few others

Birger

[nvcichlids]

that is very strange, I have never seen that in any of my toms. I am hoping to go out soon and get another male (as the other fish seems to be a female as well (my sexing at the river didn't work out soo well!)

[apistomaster]

They look like the poor fish I had in nearly straight RO water and a pH of 4.0 after I used SeaChem's Neutral Regulator as a substitute water conditioner. The problem was I actually used a large dose of SeaChem's Acid Buffer by accident. The fish most all died but they also had a mass of slime slaking off their sides.
They also did not look as healthy as your Madtoms since my fish were actually dying.

[Birger]

So far it is just the one fish of five adults that is doing this...I have had these fish since Oct 2008 and this has always been the largest but would have been considered a large juvenile when collected.

Could be:

A) The end of the breeding cycle, but nobody has mentioned this before and does not make sense they would go through such a physical change,I did not see anything like this in the past.

B) As mentioned maybe a change in the water chemistry but so far there has only been a reaction from this one.

C) This fish also has what could be sores when you look closely at the picture, maybe got jabbed by another and this is the reaction.

D) The fish is in its last days as its natural life cycle has come to duration.

Birger

[apistomaster]

Hi Birger,
I would lean more towards "D", that fish is showing it's age. Whenever cold water fish are not given a simulated winter and fail to spawn that season, it is very stressful. The females which do not spawn in season often have the extra stress of absorbing their eggs. I think in this instance it is merely an old male who's time is nearly up.
I can't think of any normal functions if water conditions have remained stable that would account for such wide spread skin sloughing. That is a mystery to me. I would at least look at a skin scraping under my microscope to see what I could see. Maybe there is a disease organism involved? That all the fish seem to have a similar skin problems leads me to strongly consider this possibility. All is speculation without more facts.

[Birger]

It tried to hang in but finally lost it...reminded me some of salmon after being upriver too long.
It was a brute though about 15mm longer that the Cat-eLog stated 105mm SL. my other 4 are not far behind in size.

I still have five of these though, I did get this little one a short while ago as a contaminent in a shipment that came in from Florida with shrimp.

Birger

[Jools]

Similiar things are happening with my colony. Meantime, would be happy to up the catelog data by at least 10mm.

Jools

[nvcichlids]

I have seen some slightly smaller in the wild. I will make sure to keep a ruler with me now when I am out! along with a new photo tank.

[apistomaster]

The Madtoms that became established in the PNW, barely, in the Columbia River Basin look just like Birger's fish. They were contaminants among the stocks of Bullhead, Flathead and Channel Cats that were introduced to the Columbia River System just before the end of the 19th Century. I haven't seen any since I explored riverside pools and one small tributary creek about 45 years ago but I know they still persist in localized areas.
It isn't ideal habitat for them since the native sea run Rainbow Trout and Chinook Salmon were the dominant species.

[nvcichlids]

so i have not updated this in FOREVER.. I am currently in the process of moving and the new 125 US Native tank will be going shortly after. I am curious how many tadpole madtoms could live happily in a 125 gallon tank. I have a few right now, but with the much larger floorplan and hiding spots, I figured I could add several more. What are your opinions on stocking?

[apistomaster]

I would think allowing each adult fish about 200 square inches(~12 X 16 inches) in a tank with plenty of structure ought to be a good place to start.

[nvcichlids]

Well this isn't much of an update, but the 125 is in the new place, just yet to be set up.. I lost 2 madtoms in the move which leaves me with a pair for the winter months. I went out today to the river and BOY WAS IT COLD!! I would say the water temp couldn't have been far from 40 degrees. I found a few tiny (less than an inch total length) madtoms in the river, but didn't bring them home. I also now have madtom predators in the tank (well madtom fry predators, the fish will not get large enough to eat adults..). I have some pumpkinseeds that I purchased from a breeder. Our state laws have been changing about keeping native fish, so I cannot collect sunfish in my state, but I can purchase some from someone outside of the state as long as they are natively found in my state.. Man do I wish I could keep some southern strains of longears!

[nvcichlids]

well everyone is doing good so far in their new tank, but I did notice an issue with one of the madtoms. It looked as if it had been fighting as it is missing a couple of fins and having issues swimming. I did notice once in the new tank, t hat he was ok in navigating, but the two madtoms were still a little bit on edge with eachother. This is the first time I have ever witnessed that! Hopefully they will settle into their new, much larger, quarters and leave eachother alone!