Shane..

Post by **Shane** » 18 Oct 2003, 02:58

I have been actually avoiding the topic as it got rather out of hand. I do have to say that it is interesting to see people's impressions of current South American events.

How is the situation in Venezuela right now? Are the right-wing people still trying to get back in power? I know about the coup last year, but I sort of hoped that things had calmed down since then...

I might have a few things to say about this since I was in the middle of that coup. Read last week's article in U.S. News and World Reports about what is happening in Venezuela right now. I would hardly call the 68% of the population (in a country where 80% live in poverty) that want Chavez out "right-wing people." I was there in Caracas when over one million people marched on Chavez' Palace and Chavez' supporters and military snipers opened fire on the crowd and killed a score of peaceful marchers.

Its definately better for the rainforest if people think you cant go there because of rebels...

Actually, no it is not. You can not go there because the Guerrillas and Paramilitaries grow cocaine. If the population could make a living from tourism, they would have a reason to protect their local environment instead of cutting down the jungle to plant coca. The coca is then processed in a combination of ether, gasoline, and other chemicals. When the coca paste is ready they dump 100s of gallons of chemicals in the local streams and rivers to get rid of them. They then move on, burn down more jungle and grow more coca because the soil is too poor to get multiple crops of coca from one cleared plot. I have yet to meet a campesino who likes growing coca, but he can not exactly refuse when the right and left wingers all have guns and will kill him if he trys to grow food instead. It would be better if tourists could go to these areas so that they would be protected and the campesinos could make an even better living fleecing the tourists of money and trade goods.

Flyinmike, actually, you could only hope that they thought you were government agents. Neither the guerrillas nor paras has ever harmed a hair on the head of an "official" U.S. citizen in a direct attack. They know that our foreign policy is not focused here and they do not want it to be. What they are after is making some quick bucks by kidnapping anyone that they think has money. They are currently holding hostages from all over the world, so no nationality is safe. Perhaps your best defense would be to convince them that you were a government employee and that the 82nd Airborne would be arriving any moment if they do not allow you on your way.

My apologies to all for getting on a Soap Box like this, but I am sure that if this coversation dealt with Europe or North America many of you would feel inclined to comment since you live there. I also wanted to say kudos to Mike for offering what I thought was a sincere apology to the forum.

OK, on that note. Let's get back to talking about collecting fishes..
-Shane

Post by **Barbie** » 18 Oct 2003, 03:25

Thank you SO much for clearing all of that up for us Shane

So are you saying we should dress in old clothing and really rough it for a collecting trip?

I've had enough trouble convincing people that speak english that the fish in my carry on were very much so alive and needed to stay that way, let alone trying to convince someone with a gun and no grasp of the english language, that I was crazy enough to risk all that for a few bags of cute little fish

Barbie

flyinmike · Post by **flyinmike** » 18 Oct 2003, 04:03

After reading about what is going to happen to the Rio Xingu I think if I could I would want to go there. That is in Brazil correct? Is it a lot nicer place to visit?

S. Allen · Post by **S. Allen** » 18 Oct 2003, 04:27

I think I'll stick to my wild colorado discus expidition... if only I can get a hold of those swine farmers...

Post by **Dinyar** » 18 Oct 2003, 05:01

flyinmike wrote:After reading about what is going to happen to the Rio Xingu I think if I could I would want to go there. That is in Brazil correct? Is it a lot nicer place to visit?

The risk of getting kidnapped is lower, though Brazil is not famous for its law and order either. Last time I was there I was advised not to be out alone on the streets after dark (even in big cities, mind you). I did anyway, and felt quite safe.

You won't be able to bring any fish back with you, however. Brazil has very strict laws on fish collecting by foreigners. Should be an interesting place to visit, though. If I'm not mistaken, there are organized eco-tours to the Xingu region. See it before it becomes a lake.

Dinyar

König Löwe · Post by **König Löwe** » 18 Oct 2003, 11:26

Allthough I wasnt in the middle of things like Shane, I may have got a different view of things, I saw a documentary about the coup a short while ago. Regarding the incident with people shooting at the demonstrators, according to this documentary, snipers openede fire on Chavez' supporters, and they returned fire.

The video clips of chavez-supporters firing from a bridge dont acctually show them firing at the marchers. The documentary showed the same thing from a different angle, where you could clearly see that the road underneath the bridge was totally empty, so clearly, nobody was shooting at any marchers...

All in all, it seems to me that the people behind the coup got the public with them through some very clever manipulation of the media (which they according to the documentary took total controll over during the coup). You could allso se, after the coup, police attacking anything that could resemble an attempt at demonstrating against the new rulers...

Off course, I cant be sure that everything was portrayed correctly in this documentary, but what I saw really shocked me, I had a hard time believing that the media could acctually have this much power.

Post by **Shane** » 18 Oct 2003, 16:11

Konig,
I do not know what your media source was, but I find it scary and sickening that someone is putting out that type of information about the coup. The entire reason that it failed was simply because NOBODY was behind it. When they marched on the palace nobody thought Chavez would just run away and thus those against Chavez were in no position to take advantage of their short-lived victory. Chavez was able to rally his supporters and regain the palace because all of Venezuela was simply dumbfounded and without a plan. They never believed they could simply chase out the president.

As to clever manipulation of the media, there was no media! Chavez ordered his "Bolivarian" soldiers to take over all radio and TV stations so that they could not broadcast the coup for fear more people would join in. Chavez supporters then set bombs off at the newspapers and surrounded their offices so that they could not release any newspapers. This is why I had to be on the streets so that I could report back to our Ambassador via cellular phone because nobody in the world could "see" what was happening since Chavez had closed down all media sources.

I do not want to come off as a big antichavista because in his own, very strange, way I believe he really thinks that he is helping Venezuela. The problem is that he is insane (I was in a meeting with him once and he forbid anyone to sit in one of the empty chairs as he said that Simon Bolivar was sitting in it!), has no clue how to run a country, and is against any form of democratic government (there is a law now that anyone who is critical of Chavez can be deported). Now, as to why the Venezuelans actually ELECTED a military officer who twice (in 1992) tried to take over the country in military coups, I have no idea. If you are interested in this subject, I am sure that there are several books and articles out there that actually report the facts. Sounds like you saw something Chavez produced in order to rewrite history. This is one of his favorite past times and you would crack up reading the official "revolutionary" textbooks that kids read now in Venezuela. All schools, public and private, also now have "Revolutionary Mentors" to make sure that the schools only use approved revolutionary textbooks that seem to have Chavez' face on every page. Reminds a lot of the things Mao did (I am sure Dinyar knows a lot about this topic) during the Chinese cultural revolution.

-Shane

flyinmike · Post by **flyinmike** » 18 Oct 2003, 18:21

Dinyar wrote: You won't be able to bring any fish back with you, however. Brazil has very strict laws on fish collecting by foreigners. Should be an interesting place to visit, though. If I'm not mistaken, there are organized eco-tours to the Xingu region. See it before it becomes a lake.

Dinyar

I have read about companies that will take you out and then they will export your fish to you along with their regular shipments. One I read about here on P.C.

S. Allen · Post by **S. Allen** » 18 Oct 2003, 20:30

;) I assume you don't plan on an assignment in Venezuela any time soon Shane?

Post by **Silurus** » 18 Oct 2003, 20:43

I assume you don't plan on an assignment in Venezuela any time soon Shane?

I don't think so, seeing that he just finished an assignment in Venezuela not too long ago. It's Mexico next.

Post by **Shane** » 18 Oct 2003, 21:36

FlyinMike,
Actually, it would be very useful if someone did a thorough web search and posted some links for companies that are doing this sort of thing. I have a caught a few advertisements in TFH and Cat Chat, so these would also be good resources to check. I have never done a commercial fish collecting tour, so I can not vouch for any of the companies.
-Shane

S. Allen · Post by **S. Allen** » 19 Oct 2003, 00:39

http://www.amazonfishingtrips.com/amazo ... r-tropical

the second trip, if you poke around there you find Oliver Lucanus does help out a bit on the tours, in fact there's a pic of him and a baby gigas that pisses me off a bit... SOunds like a neat tour, but it seems to be mainly geared towards observation, not collecting, still not a bad shake, although nothing in Xingu.

Margarita tours apparently runs some fish collecting, I didn't find where exactly though... http://amazon-ecotours.com/

Fear from SharkAquarium also runs what appears to be one tour a year
http://www.sharkaquarium.com/trip.cfm

this isn't an exhasutive search, just things I have in my bookmarks. Nothing for Xingu much... May have a lot to do with the laws making sightseeing unprofitable.

flyinmike · Post by **flyinmike** » 19 Oct 2003, 01:03

http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... heaven.htm

This is the one I saw that has caught my attention the most. I have emailed and am waiting for an answer back.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 19 Oct 2003, 09:50

S. Allen wrote:Margarita tours apparently runs some fish collecting, I didn't find where exactly though... http://amazon-ecotours.com/

See the Peru2000 article in Shane's World's world, this was with Magarita Tours and I went along with my wife, Chris Ralph (PFK) and Allan James (scotcat.com) and a few other folks from England. Collecting in the amazon down river of Iquitos.

S. Allen wrote:this isn't an exhasutive search, just things I have in my bookmarks. Nothing for Xingu much... May have a lot to do with the laws making sightseeing unprofitable.

Check out the Rio Xingu Ranch...

http://www.ranchoxingu.com.br/
http://www.usangler.com/newsletter/2002/03/2.cfm

Jools

MC · Post by MC » 21 Oct 2003, 06:19

SG_Eurystomus wrote:MC, no kidding, that's what a lot of locals told us.
I'm not -definitely honest!- trying to piss off North Americans.

I went with a group; a guy from Quito, a local Native guide, two Belgium girls and 5 people from Pennsylvania. Needless to say, the Pennsylvanians weren't relaxed for the first few days. they relaxed once it turned out to be utterly bogus, and we had a very fine Jungle-trip.

Sid,

I wasn't *sigh*ing at what you said, I was actually doing so towards some of the previous posts, not yours. I have a cousin living in Brasil at the moment and he has never encountered any problems and his freedom of movement has never been infringed upon. Everyone has different experiences.

My *sigh* was towards a couple of things i disagreed with on the first page of this thread, and rather then openly debate some ill informed statements, decided to leave it at the *sigh*.

Nothing ventured nothing gained.

flyinmike · Post by **flyinmike** » 24 Oct 2003, 23:54

flyinmike wrote:http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... heaven.htm

This is the one I saw that has caught my attention the most. I have emailed and am waiting for an answer back.

He emailed back with a website that is in german only so far. http://www.maikstravel.com/
Unfortunately I don't know a bit of german except ein bier bitte and danke. 18 mnths. there and thats the only words I remember.

He also inquired about what exactly I was interested in doing so I will write him back and see what he has to say.

Post by **Barbie** » 25 Oct 2003, 00:09

You could also run the website through altavista. Sometimes the translated version doesn't make much more sense than the original one, lol, but it works quite well

Barbie

flyinmike · Post by **flyinmike** » 25 Oct 2003, 15:06

Thanks Barbie. The Altavista thing worked pretty good.

Here is the content of his second email to me.

Hi Mike ,
I organise collecting trips all over Brasil.
It depends on the size of the group and how many days !!!
I am in Manaus right now but I will send you more details
next month !!!
Pleases send me more details about what you want to do !!
Maik

Anybody around here interested in a Xingu/Irriri trip late next summer?

doctorzeb · Post by **doctorzeb** » 25 Oct 2003, 18:10

Aw Yeah, Like you wouldn't believe. Unfortunately Scotlands just that wee bit too far away to pop accorss and meet ya!!

Best get there before the bas**ards build their lovely Hydro station and kill everything.!!!

Walter · Post by **Walter** » 25 Oct 2003, 20:27

Hi,
on this German Website is written, that Mike Beyer and his "Apistoheaven" are organizing jungle walks for tourists. And "Apistoheaven" has the licence to catch fishes, such as Corydoras barbatus, and You can watch them doing it.
If You click: http://www.maikstravel.com/saofish.htm , you can see a list of fishes of Sao Paulo, of You click: http://www.maikstravel.com/riofisch.html , a list of the fishes of Rio de Janeiro.
The website is not finished yet.

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 25 Oct 2003, 21:52

Hi!

Well I was in Manaus last year in the summer and sincerely I never had any problem.
The thing is you probably won't have any if you not walking around showing you have money such as a gold rolex watch at your wrist or stuff like that.
There isn't much problem during day time but in certain zone of the city it is highly recommanded not to walk around by day time. Also if you rent a car it is usually a good idea to lock it when your in ( this is even done by locals so...). But again I spent 5 great weeks there without a single problems...
Regarding taking fish out, well I can say that it is highly prohibited but if you manage to meet one of these exporters such as Coryodras, Turkys or K2 ( for Manaus) and ask them to buy some fish and have them ship them where you are it should not be much of a problem.
But to be sincere I would not even try to bother, you might pay the fish rather cheap but the shipping will be expensive and you might not be able to chose the fish you want.
Trust me also you don't put that many fish in a box. And you might end up pretty fast with 3-4 boxes and close of 1000$ altogether.
The best way would have several people willing to import fish, have them to receive the fish where you live and quarantine them. This way you really might have 3-6 boxes but with a better spread of the cost.

By the way if you want the adress or phone number of these exportators in Manaus, just have a look in the yellow pages this is where I found them. Notice also that these exportators might have an office in town but they are usually pretty well out of town. So a car is needed ( don't try a taxi it will cost you so much money to get there plus the tourist extra payment

( anyway if you plan a Taxi go with the TUCUXI (dolphin) company))...
Have fun there...it is really a great time to go there as the sand beaches start to appear ....

Cheers
Yann