Pseudacanthicus cf. leopardus/leopardus

kouen · Post by **kouen** » 31 May 2011, 08:10

Hi guys!

Is it possible to identify who is that L114 or L600? SL is around 18 sm.

Thanks

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husky_jim · Post by **husky_jim** » 31 May 2011, 09:38

All fish are L114.

I cannot tell cause the pics are not expanding but i believe the first one is a male and the last one female.

Can you post bigger pics?

Acanthicus · Post by **Acanthicus** » 31 May 2011, 12:48

Hi,

I don´t think they are L 114, they look more like Pseudacanthicus leopardus to me, due to the very small spots on the head. But the caudal fin is kind of irritating me, cause of the orange part. Bigger pics might help. I agree, that first one is a male, and last one looks like it could be a female.

husky_jim · Post by **husky_jim** » 31 May 2011, 15:05

Acanthicus wrote:Hi,

I don´t think they are L 114, they look more like Pseudacanthicus leopardus to me, due to the very small spots on the head. But the caudal fin is kind of irritating me, cause of the orange part. Bigger pics might help. I agree, that first one is a male, and last one looks like it could be a female.

I believe that the caudal fin coloration rules out the L600 possibility.

All of the L600 i have/had exhibit solid orange striped terminal band on the caudal fin while my L114 have the same pattern as the pictured fish...

kouen · Post by **kouen** » 01 Jun 2011, 13:53

kouen · Post by **kouen** » 01 Jun 2011, 14:04

Thanks!

I'm very sorry that not verified pics timely. Link to original pictures was not correctly transferred

Here they are!

Fish1 - first 6 pisc
Fish2 - next 3
Fish3 - next 2
Fish4 - last 3

kouen · Post by **kouen** » 01 Jun 2011, 14:26

I have 1,5 m 250-300l tanks. Is it OK to place that team (4 fishes) in one tank? I have a lot of ceramic caves, wood to reduce extra fighting for territory...

PseudaSmart · Post by **PseudaSmart** » 02 Jun 2011, 03:51

Hi,
All 4 are L114s. The pattern on the head is to large, the tail is not solid, and the dorsal fin is not trimmed in orange. If each tank is only 200l (50gal) do not put even two in that size tank! They are almost to breeding size. I have one pair of L114/600s in a 600l (180gal)tank with 5 caves and drift wood and they tolerate each other but not happy. I have 2 more pair of L600s in a 1,100l (300gal) tub and all 4 do well together. They are all between 23-29cm tl.

I cannot tell for sure if they are male or female from the photos. Top photos are best to tell gender. Keep asking questions.

kouen · Post by **kouen** » 02 Jun 2011, 08:21

Thanks! New pics will be provided soon.

I placed all of them to 240l for beginning. If hard fightings will starts, fish could be moved to separate tanks.

CoryWally · Post by **CoryWally** » 02 Jun 2011, 09:49

Without wanting to railroad this thread, what's the general concensus between L114 and L600? Are they regarded separate species or regional variants.

The breeding log in Shane's World describes various breeding experiences with mixed parents, without any concerned comment on hybridisation.

The reason I ask is I recently acquired a 'pair' which could be one of each!

Cheers,
Mark.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 02 Jun 2011, 10:22

CoryWally wrote:what's the general concensus between L114 and L600? Are they regarded separate species or regional variants.

I don't think any scientist has had a chance to look at the problem.

I wouldn't take the risk though, and I wouldn't try to cross them given that they are easily distinguished.

husky_jim · Post by **husky_jim** » 02 Jun 2011, 12:54

CoryWally wrote:Without wanting to railroad this thread, what's the general concensus between L114 and L600? Are they regarded separate species or regional variants.

The breeding log in Shane's World describes various breeding experiences with mixed parents, without any concerned comment on hybridisation.

The reason I ask is I recently acquired a 'pair' which could be one of each!

Cheers,
Mark.

I personally believe that L114 and L600 are closely related and NOT the same species.Until scientists perform a taxonomy revision of them everything is speculation of course.

Due to the fact that there are visible differences among them i would separate them and treat them as different.....

I also know 'in person' that the fish from the breeding article are now separated into two groups (L600 tank and L114 tank) by their new owner and the situation is the opposite of what is described.The L114 female is "caving" already with the L114 male and the same is happening for the L600's.
No fighting between males and females of the same L-code....

So i believe that the L114xL600 spawning was a result of having them in a mixed "species" tank and NOT a preference issue.....

PseudaSmart · Post by **PseudaSmart** » 02 Jun 2011, 14:03

Kouen,
Keep a close watch on the quality of the water. Four fish of that size produce a lot of waste!

CoryWally and husky_jim
I am hoping to add solid data to the L114 / L600 discussion soon. I currently have over 100 3month old pure 'L600' fry and over 200 1month old fry where the male is an L600 and the female I can best describe as a hybrid. I am documenting the growth of both groups. I will photograph each one when they are 2". Cristoffer and I have been trading emails so it will be a team effort. For background I have already posted several threads on these spawns. More to follow.

Jim

husky_jim · Post by **husky_jim** » 02 Jun 2011, 15:04

likesloaches wrote:Kouen,
Keep a close watch on the quality of the water. Four fish of that size produce a lot of waste!

CoryWally and husky_jim
I am hoping to add solid data to the L114 / L600 discussion soon. I currently have over 100 3month old pure 'L600' fry and over 200 1month old fry where the male is an L600 and the female I can best describe as a hybrid. I am documenting the growth of both groups. I will photograph each one when they are 2". Cristoffer and I have been trading emails so it will be a team effort. For background I have already posted several threads on these spawns. More to follow.

Jim

Very happy to hear that!Keep us posted!

kouen · Post by **kouen** » 13 Jun 2011, 20:32

Is anybody waiting some updates about my cactuses?

Here we go!

Unungy · Post by **Unungy** » 17 Jun 2011, 06:07

I got to love the background music.

Nice video.

Saul

kouen · Post by **kouen** » 09 Jul 2011, 19:33

Good! I like this music too – “Amanaska”

----

One thing is clear - I have one Pair. They are OK, started to breed. I've got today first fries

Another unknown 2 fishes were separated recently. What do you think about that fish?

1. Color. Do they still L114 or one is L600? ;)
2. Male/female?

Thanks!
Sergey

PseudaSmart · Post by **PseudaSmart** » 10 Jul 2011, 23:19

Kouen,

Based on your pictures the smaller one is a L114 female. The larger one looks to be a L114/hybrid male. The male does not have a solid color tail, the body pattern is mixed and the spots on head are too large.

The L114 and L600 debate
Based on emails with Stephan Tanner I have decided to try DNA barcoding with all 6 of my group. I do not know how long it takes for the experts to review the data but my goal is to collect the samples in the next month. I hope that the testing combined with photos will provide a definitive answer. My 2 spawns are still doing well. The L600 fry all look very similar with little variation. The Hybrid fry are still too small to tell.

I am behind on new photos as a result of unexpected surprises but I will try soon.

Jim

OlePaulsen · Post by **OlePaulsen** » 11 Jul 2011, 05:20

They are 114 in my eyes and most likely a pair. see the different "tube", headshape, color, belly is bigger on one, and the head is bigger on the other.
I keep both 114 and leopardus and they look very different !

kouen · Post by **kouen** » 12 Jul 2011, 13:55

Folks, many thanks for replies!

I agree, dark one is lady - size& odontodes very small. Dimensions difference of last 2 is very similar to breeding pair male/female. But I still can’t understand head proportions or deferens of male/female head styles.

BR,
Sergey

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 12 Jul 2011, 20:50

kouen wrote:But I still can’t understand head proportions or deferens of male/female head styles.

Look at two adult fish, of similar size, in good condition, from above. Scale them up in your mind so they are the same size.

The male will be wider in the head behind (anterior) of the eyes. The female will be wider across the midriff behind the pectoral fin and down a bit to the pelvic fins. Essentially where the eggs are underneath. This is very general and, as a horribly general rule, the more spiny the pleco genus, the harder it is to tell!

Butchered pic attached to demonstrate graphically. I am not sure of the sexes of these two myself but it does look like a smaller darker female and a lighter mature male.

Jools

PseudaSmart · Post by **PseudaSmart** » 13 Jul 2011, 03:19

Jools, That was an excellent description! The other easy way to tell mature males from females for the L114's is the shape of the pelvic fins. The females have tear drop shaped pelvic fins and the males are more square.

Ole, I agree that L114s are very different then L600s.

Kouen, we all agree, the smaller is a female and the larger is a male.

have a great day,
Jim

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