Fighting LDA33 males, but which one to remove??

[krazyGeoff]

I am currently altering my water in an attempt to get these guys to breed.
There is one primary cave and there has been one male, not the biggest one, in residence for a few months now. Lately I have been getting the water really hard, as I move into a dry season, and in the last week the male in the cave is always fanning, and one female always sits on the cave. (Although she does not look gravid)
So I am thinking that I might be on the right track.
There are 6 fish in total 2 males and 4 females (Or 3 females and a young male)
They are in a 6 foot tank and have plenty of room.
The other day I noticed that the "cave male" had rubbing marks about 1 inch long along both flanks near the tail.
His colour has all been rubbed away, and I could see blood vessels.
I am assuming that the two big males are actually fighting over the cave!
He seems to be coming right today, but the question remains:
Do I remove the "cave male" (22+cm TL) or do I remove the bigger (24+cm TL) male?

My thoughts are to leave the male who is in residence in the cave, and remove the larger male.

Any opinions anyone.

Thanks
Geoff

[MatsP]

My thoughts are to leave the male who is in residence in the cave, and remove the larger male.

That would be my thought.

--
Mats

[Taratron]

Is there a reason you only have one cave in the tank?

[jbmm]

I always use
#caves = #_of_fish + 1
as rule of thumb

[apistomaster]

I always use
#caves = #_of_fish + 1
as rule of thumb

I use one or two fewer caves than the estimated number of males.
My hypothesis is that only the most dominant and therefore most desirable males control the caves and these are the males which females will vie for the privilege of spawning with the superior males.
Both methods work but it is my hypothesis that my approach speeds up the appearance of the first spawns because the dominant females are the most likely to breed first. I add more caves as it seems appropriate.

The bottom line is that there are many methods that work. The fighting is a normal part of establishing the dominance hierarchy. As long as there are some pieces of wood for excess males and the females to use as hiding places allows the males to hide and avoid further fighting unless and until one decides to displace one of the first dominant males to take control one of the available caves.

[Taratron]

Hm, okay. Everything I've read about my zebras indicates to chock the tank full of caves to minimize deaths of males or females, but was wondering!

[apistomaster]

The problem I have with giving every fish a cave is it reduces the frequency of social interactions.
I provide plenty of hiding places for the females and least dominant males by keeping quite a bit of wood in their tank.
I used this method with a group of 10 wild H. zebra and fighting was never a problem.
I think deaths attributed to fighting are extremely rare. The time of most risk is during spawning where a very dominant and aggressive male may be too rough on a small or weaker female if she is not ready to spawn but has become confined inside a cave by the male. Two males are never going to fight to the death unless you are keeping them in a tank which is too small and poorly furnished.
But it is a fact that either approach has been proven to work so ultimately it comes down to which method you prefer.
I use my method because it encourages competition among the females for the right to spawn with a desirable dominant male.
I think that competition between females speeds up getting your first spawns.

[wrasse]

One thing is certain, losing an adult LDA33 would be tragic. They take years to reach that size. It must have been quite a battle.
But the activities all sound like prior to a mating taking place. So first I'd be inclined to add at least 2 more 'primary' caves and more obstacles between the caves.

[krazyGeoff]

Thanks for your replies.
I will keep an eye on the situation, as the injured male does not seem to leave the cave much now, and is constantly fanning. The injury appears to be healing.

The tank



In this case I am defining the cave as the only place in the tank that has a single entry / exit point. It can be seen in the above photo just to the right of the wood pile, under the round rock, but at ground level.
The cave has been moved (by me) to be in a right to left direction parallel with the front of the tank, under the right side of the wood pile.
Usually all but 2 of the fish are in the wood pile.
The flat slate structures to the right and left of the wood pile actually have 3 or 4 cavities under each flat block of slate to provide "caves" that one can escape via the back or front.
The bigger male normally hangs around those cavities.
I was thinking of doubling the amount of wood, and placing it on the left of the current wood pile.
Cheers
Geoff