Raising TDS Using Calcium Carbonate?

[Sue Foster]

Upstate NY is the poster child for acid rain and chemical runoff from groomed lawns. I'd be testing the well for your own safety. How far are you from that huge country club?

New England soils are notoriously low in calcium. You're just a breath away from NE.

A lot of the general values in the water reports do apply. You are tapping the same water table in the same general area. They probably have a more in-depth report available but don't post it.

Dug wells tend to be very soft and acid. Artesian wells contain more minerals but still tend to lack. Granite is mostly inert but just a tad on the acid side. Radon is also an issue with deep wells over granite bedrock.

I saw a report recently from the area on LI that I came from. I was kind of horrified. I didn't know what a lot of the chemicals showing up in the water were exactly but the names told me they were from solvents and petroleum products. There was also vague mention about the pollution to the aquifer caused by Grumman in it's heyday.

[apistomaster]

I also agree that the possibility of contaminates is likely causing the problem as deformities are not the result of any of the basic chemistry of the water parameters we fish keepers usually worry about.

[TwoTankAmin]

If my water was in any way "toxic" or "bad" for fish, then I assume the 8 wild caught Altum angels I have been raising now for close to 18 months would have long ago died or at least become ill and/or deformed? I keep a pretty decent variety of fish and I see no other indications that suggest water quality issues. My discus are fine, my clown loaches I have had for about 9 years are fine. My red cherry and amano shrimp are fine.

Our house is at close to the highest elevation in the county, we are on rock- to put in a pool or a basement in this area requires the use of explosives. So surface water percolates through a lot of natural filteration. If anybody suffers from runoff issues they would be our runoff effecting them not the reverse. This is a 4 acre zoning area, i.e. one house/4 acres and the other zoning regs mean that most home sites exceed that maximum. Moreover there are a number of sanctuaries in the area which means a lot of the area is not occupied. There are no factories there are no commercial farms, this is a residential area.

My issues are simple as is the evidence:
-My traditional method of letting water "dirty" up to simulate the dry season stopped working.
-Fish which are seasonal spawners have mostly stopped.
-In the past 9 months some some fry have been deformed.
-L134 spawns (6 to date) do not survive past 1 day free swimming. Most die sooner.
-Other sensitive fish show no issues.
-TDS which for years was steady at about 6dg GH and 5dg have dropped. TDS from the tap used to be in the 100-120ppm range and is now in the 75-78ppm range.
-Local population growth has been substantial over the past decade which has accelerated the rate that water moves into and out of the underground systems. It spends less time in contact with the rock and thus has less time to pick up mineralization from the contact.

As a student of Occam's razor, I tend to look for the simplest solution first. Yes I realize that there could be a less simple explanation here, but I feel I need to look first at what appears to be the most obvious problem in light of the known facts.

I have worked with crushed coral in the past with my co2 added planted tank. My issue with it is that it is not a precise nor easily controllable solution. It works slowly and when used in smaller quantities would result in fluctuations due to water changes. This was fine in the planted tank but would not be so acceptable whe seasonal spawning is involved. So I am looking for a better way to get a similar result but in a simpler and more controllable fashion.

I do not plan to megadose anything, I am using additives sparingly and at a measured pace. So I am not worried about harming the fish because water parameters are changed radically and quickly.

[racoll]

With dying or deformed fry, the first thing I would look at is bacterial levels.

Not saying you aren't running a tight ship, but it could always be tighter.

I would review your rearing methods, and see if any improvements in cleanliness can be made, such as for example: stopping using bare-bottom tanks, make more water changes, clean out detritus and water change daily, clean the filter more often, feed a different food, reduce feeding, maybe try a UV unit, maybe strip down and sterilise equipment. Just some ideas.

If you are convinced it is the mineral problems, I would first of all go with R/O right as an experiment (very little effort). If things work with that, then maybe think about mixing up your own cheaper alternative?

[apistomaster]

If we rule out chemical contamination, and I think that is a safe assumption, the deformities tend to occur most frequently among pleco eggs which are incubated in nets instead of naturally.

[TwoTankAmin]

I have probably produced well over 2,000+ pleco fry in the last 10 years, this includes 500+ zebra fry countless bristlenose fry and about 150 contradens fry. I have basically used the same systems and methods for all of this. I spawn in both bare bottom and substrated tanks and the same for raising fry. I prefer the bare bottom tanks. I have followed the same weekly water change and filter cleaning routines for years. Plus, I feed my fish a better selection and quality of foods than most people get.

Of 500+ zebra fry I have seen exactly 3-4 snubbers period. I had no issues with bristlenose and it is only the most recent batch or two of contradens fry had deformation issues. I am raising wild altums, keeping discus and have a few clown loaches with me for 9+ years now. Over the years I have had the following spawn as well: rosy barbs (to F3); montezuma swords; zebra and choprae danio; threadfin, gertrudae and furcatus rainbows; dd black angels; panda, paleatus, sterbai and similis corys (no fry from the latter); red cherry shrimp; P. nicholsi; betta imbellis; farlowella vittata and A. australe.

My problems in the past have been having too many fry, that is until the past year. I do not understand why no matter how many times I have reiterated the facts that so many responders here seem to have ignored these facts and insist upon looking at everything and anything but them.

Fish are not dying on me, fish are not sick in my tanks. The problems are all recent and the only measurable factor there is at this point is that the TDS of my tap water has dropped from the range of 106-124ppm to its present levels in the upper 70s ppm and that my pH has dropped from 7.4 to just over 7. The pH drop could very well be related to lower KH. Moreover raising GH/KH is often accomplished by using calcium carbonate.

Given that I have also has some deformed contradens (the fish that continued producing viable spawns the longest before finally halting), looking to calcium deficiency seemed one logical thing to consider. Not having 134 fry make it to free swimming also seemed that it might be the result of low TDS as well.

Given that most plecos are seasonal spawners and that markedly different TDS levels are an integral part of dry and rainy seasons, the drop in my tap TDS again would seem to point towards this being an issue.

If I had problems with metals, bacteria in the water or poor maintenance, the altums would have been floaters, the discus as well not to mention the shrimp. I should have lost a lot of fry too. So all of the indications point towards TDS/GH/KH related issues as the likely cause while other facts would seem to eliminate a lot of the other possibilities being mentioned.

So I plan to pursue the solution here not as anything more complicated than needing more calcium and higher TDS levels. Once the new GH/KH kit arrives I will post in this thread what the tap levels for them are. One last note, I am dealing with this issue in 7 pleco tanks currently, all Hypans save one tank of wc 134s.

[apistomaster]

Hi twotank,
I know you to be a very successful fish breeder and I never meant to insult your intelligence in any of my comments. But I do not see how this recent drop in your tap water's hardness and TDS could be responsible for any of your recent problems. I would expect it to be working in your favor.

It is a fact as a few of us have written that the water chemistry changes very little between the wet and dry seasons. However the wet season does bring many profound and complex changes to the fishes environment. Namely the increased area of their habitat in the available and fertile flooded flood plain forests, an increase in the food supply for both conditioning the breeding fish and their fry food supplies. A hiccup wherein I could not get my fish to breed as they had previously is inevitable. Case in point, this year I haven't been able to get any of my L134 to spawn. .

I know you see a cause and effect relationship associated with your now much softer water but even at this new level it is still harder water than these fishes native habitats. That is why I do not think that is the problem.
It may be merely a coincidence that your fish are having trouble because as you said, your Altum Angels and Discus continue to thrive. That your altums thrive in particular is a good indication of you still have excellent water from your tap.
I have bred wild Discus and many plecos but have also experienced problems such as this year my L134 still have not spawned after 4 years of consistently getting about 200 fry each season from a small group of 6 wild breeders. I haven't changed any conditions that I am aware of. Only their increasing age is what I know is changing. It is always possible to hit a wall once in awhile whenever you are involved with raising any living things. Think about the risks of farming and ranching. They have good and bad years and mediocre years. Sometimes all one can do is ride them out because breeding and raising fishes is not ever guaranteed regardless of how experienced one may be. I think any advanced breeder of fishes has had similar experiences at different times in their fish breeding careers. I know how frustrated I am because I have become accustomed to producing so many L134 every year then suddenly this year I have had no spawns to date.
I only know one thing to do and that is to keep at it and be patient. That is how you got to where you are and it will be how you will come out the other side of this current dearth in productivity. I can not see any reasons why having softer water now can be the cause of the problem. It would actually be more unusual for one to not have a bad year once in awhile.
I spent many years where about all i did was breed Killiefish and I took it for granted that I could breed anything anytime I wanted but I have hit that wall at times and couldn't seem to breed even easier species like A. australe. I lost count of how many Killiefish species I have propagated somewhere around the 100th species mark. I began breeding them in 1968. I have been a an AKA member off and on since 1968 and still am now. I have had the same thing happen with Apistogramma where I seemed to be able to breed anything I could get my hands on and yet at times I can't even get the beginners Apistos to breed. I accept this as part of being a fish breeder. I could give up but I find if I persist I will eventually see the pendulum swing back in my favor. I am now beginning my 50th year of breeding fishes and I have seen my share of ups and downs and I like to think I am growing wiser but that makes me no less immune from hitting walls.
Fish are simply never sure things to propagate regardless of one's level of experience and skill. It will be your experience and skill combined with your persistence that will let you over come the present difficulties. Neither one of us has chosen the easiest fish in the hobby to breed and with that comes times of frustration. You will get back in a groove again but it may be different than your previous stages. That has been my experience. I used to have a wet thumb for breeding wild Discus but then after several dry years I'll get a pair to breed. Yet I know more about them now than I have ever known in the past.
I sometimes delve into breeding some Tetras or something other than my primary money makers as distractions to help me through the the hard times. I sometimes breed some wild Bettas too. I only like the small bubble nesting species and have raised 1000's of B. imbellis and Betta species "Mahachai" plus some Betta smaragdina. I am still having trouble with breeding Betta coccina complex species but they are more difficult than the others. Presently they are one of my distracting side projects. Diversions away from pleco breeding problems which I expect will be resolved by continuing to try but with more patience.

I am just trying to share with you that despite my own considerable experience I still have my share of problems and am sharing some of the ways I deal with them by dabbling with some other fish while I await my primary fish to get back in their groove.
I never use artificial rearing of pleco eggs and fry unless I find some ejected eggs. I think it is because it is easy to damage some of the developing embryos during the transference to a breeding net or hatching tank. I only have encountered some deformed pleco fry among those I raised artificially.
One of the reasons the fish breeding hobby is so attractive to us is not because we are always successful but for reasons similar to a gambling addiction where positive reinforcement is variable and not predictable.

[TwoTankAmin]

Larry-

I appreciate your input and decades of experience. It far exceeds mine. However, lets just look at a single species, the zebra. They are seasonal spawners like so many SA fish, but theirs' is a pretty different experience than many of the other seasonal spawners.

While rivers do overflow their banks and create vast flood plain areas, this has no relevance to the zebra. It lives deep in faster flowing waters and to the best of my knowledge does not leave this habitat no matter how flooded the region around the river where they live becomes. So everything that they experience has to come to them, they do not go to it.

If the flood plains per se have no bearing on how and why they spawn, then it seems to me it has to be the other factors which do change in their environment that trigger them to spawn. And that would be some changes in water temperature, water levels, GH, KH, flow rates and pH levels. And once again this brings me back to TDS and what goes into it and also how it may effect pH. Of course there is also the availability of food playing some role as well as the barometric pressure changes that accompany the changes between the dry and rainy seasons.

Chris

[apistomaster]

Since H. zebra are a very localized species found around Altimira rapids in the Rio Xingu when the wet season arrives, the rapids do flood out into the broader areas of rocky habitats. I know they do not breed in the broader flood plains where Discus and other fish breed but the available rocky environment definitely increases to many times that of the low water line. The food supplies are increased by both the flooded forests and newly covered exposed rocky areas. The majority of aquatic insects time their emergence and breeding to the seasonal water level fluctuations just like many fish so the Zebras do have much more breeding habitat and increased food supplies during the high water. So great is the increased coverage of the rocky environment at high water that fishing for them is impossible at high water. It is irrelevant that it is illegal to fish for H. zebra. Poaching still is going on when the fish become more accessible. The salient point is at high water the fish have much more rocky environment available for breeding and the food supplies are at their peak. Of course they do not penetrate the flooded jungles as that is not the kind of habitat they have evolved to exploit. I see this same phenomenon with Trout in the fast large rivers out west. That is when the native Rainbows and Cutthroat trout spawn. There is more spawning bed gravels available and larger numbers of aquatic insect larvae that both the adults and fry require. It is at the highest water levels of the year and no Trout fishing in rivers is allowed until after the spawning season has ended. Even if it was open the fishing would be much harder since the rocky river beds are full from bank to bank due to spring run off.
The actual water chemistry does not change much in tropical South American rivers seasonally. There is a dramatic increase in fresh water, available suitable breeding habitat and increased food supplies. These are the factors that I believe are more relevant than the small changes in their already extremely soft and acidic waters. I find it incredulous to believe that minute changes of their water chemistry and/or barometric pressures matters more than the increased volume of fresh water, spawning habitat and food supplies.

I haven't bred H. zebra but I have been breeding L260 for 4 years and they seem to be seasonal for the most part. L260 and H. zebra are similar in nearly every respect when it comes to their habits and size. Mine breed most often in the late fall and early winter.
My L134 only breed between Feb 15 to August 30. Not every fish species has the same spawning season. I do not presume to know everything about their biology. If I did I would not presently be undergoing my own disruption in L134 breeding or would know what I could do differently to induce them to breed. I have measured my water enough for both species to know they can breed very successfully in water with a pH as high as 7.5 and since I mainly test TDS, it has been as high as 350 ppm. I have also had them breed well when the pH was about 6.0 and the TDS was about 40 ppm. This tells me that water chemistry is not all that important.
We each are experiencing similar difficulties in breeding some plecos we have come to believe that we thought we understood better than we apparently do.
In both L260 and Peckoltia compta I have had them breed in their apparent seasons when my water was straight from the tap although I typically have had the majority of spawns occur when I am keeping them in mostly RO water. I really do not measure the hardness often. I simply keep in mind the approximate ratio of RO to tap water in mind but I do not keep close tabs on the pH nor any other water chemistry measurements. When I am not expecting them to breed I simply keep them in straight tap water.
I do know I allow my hardness to vary greatly even when the water is being kept highly diluted with RO water. I have never found a compelling reason to do more. If the fish want to breed they do in spite of and not necessarily because of what chemical changes I may have made. I guess it is my somewhat cavalier disregard for water chemistry that makes me think the small change which has occurred in your tap water has much to do with your frustrating or my frustrating current lack of good results we both have come to expect of our breeding groups.
I simply take better care of my fish just before and during when they have historically been their most productive.
I daresay I do not put nearly as much effort into caring for my fish as you and others do. It would be very difficult to find a successful fish breeder with a more lackadaisical approach to fish breeding than mine. It is hard for me to do the basic routine aquarium care because I have some mobility and severe pain issues. I do no more than is necessary out of necessity.
So in no way am I being critical of your greater degree of attention. I am merely trying to demonstrate how little attention I can provide and still get results and my lessor degree of actual care is my evidence of how low I consider the importance of minor changes of water chemistry is to breeding plecos. I present my approach as not an example of better methodology but as an example of how little role we may play in getting fish to breed. To me, plecos are a boring fish to keep and breed because all they do is hide. I am delighted when I turn on the lights and see new pleco fry. Those are the days when the effort seems well worthwhile. I consider what little care or I should say effort I can put into them is work I resent but find that by stepping up my game at the right time sometimes makes the damned fish breed. And how sometimes it doesn't. I do not advise anyone to try to use my approach because my idea of "benign neglect" is others ideas of almost total disregard for my fish. Sometimes this costs me dearly and I kill a couple thousand dollars worth of fish. It is the price I pay for taking on more than I can physically handle sometimes. In balance, I manage to raise and sell enough fish to help me have my hobby pay for itself and sometimes earn a few extra dollars I otherwise couldn't due to my disabilities.
I consider myself fortunate that before I became disabled, I had a lifetime of experience breeding fish and learned some ways to help me work around my present day limitations.

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I'm not looking to pick an argument either, but I have to agree with Larry - "Apistomaster".

But I do not see how this recent drop in your tap water's hardness and TDS could be responsible for any of your recent problems. I would expect it to be working in your favor.

I think that an HMA filter may be the way forward, as it could be a heavy metal or pesticide issue.

I'd use a water conditioner that contains EDTA(as long as your water isn't iron rich), or an HMA filter, as I think this may be a heavy metal issue. Another possibility would be traces of pesticides in the water (possibly synthetic pyrethroid or organo-phosphate insecticides), again an HMA filter would eliminate these.

I also think Racoll may have a point

With dying or deformed fry, the first thing I would look at is bacterial levels.

I personally like a substrate as well as I know I'm not a "conscientious cleaner", and a coarse sand substrate offers advantages in maintaining stable water parameters.

I have worked with crushed coral in the past with my co2 added planted tank. My issue with it is that it is not a precise nor easily controllable solution. It works slowly and when used in smaller quantities would result in fluctuations due to water changes. This was fine in the planted tank but would not be so acceptable when seasonal spawning is involved. So I am looking for a better way to get a similar result but in a simpler and more controllable fashion.

If you don't want to use crushed coral, a combination of calcium chloride, potassium or sodium bi-carbonate and magnesium sulphate heptahydrate can be adjusted to give any TDS, dkH and gKH value you want, the pH effect is more dependent upon other factors.

PM if you want an Excel spreadsheet (to help with the calculations).

cheers Darrel

[racoll]

I do not understand why no matter how many times I have reiterated the facts that so many responders here seem to have ignored these facts and insist upon looking at everything and anything but them.

We're just making suggestions based on our experiences. No need to get uppity. It pays to be polite when people are giving their time to help, regardless of whether you agree with them.

[TwoTankAmin]

Finally got the GH and KH kits. Tap water tested at 86ppm with the TDS Meter and GH tested st barely 5dg while KH tested at 3dg.

I am using pretreated water for water changes on 7 tanks. I began two weeks back by putting bags of crushed coral on a few filters and had them on all 9 tanks by the end of last week. I have been doing my own mix to pre-treat the water which consists of running a HOT Magnum filter filled with crushed coral in a 20 gal can of tap water. To this I add about 3 teaspoons of Epsom and about 1/6 teaspoon of baking soda. The result is water that gives a TDS reading of between 125 and 140 ppm. I will mix in more tap if its above 130 ppm to bring it down below that level. The changing water tests at GH 7dg and KH still at 3dg (however, I think it is slightly higher but under 4dg). The pH on this mix was just under 7.4 vs just over 7.0 for tap.

The TDS levels on all of the 7 tanks are now between 113 and 126 ppm. I have seen no signs of distress from any of the fish. My plan is to reach a level in the range of 115-120 ppm for growout tanks and slightly higher for breeder tanks and hold it there for a while. Eventually I will look to raise the levels in 4 Hypancistrus breeding tanks using a combination of reduced water changes and higher TDS replacement water. The Peckoltia compta I will not raise.

Hopefully, some time this summer I should be able to switch over to rainy season by using untreated tap and a good storm.

[krazyGeoff]

Hi TwoTank,
I have been following this post as someone who has bred some stuff and has the following readings from my tap water;
pH 7.2
TDS 80-90ppm
kH = 0
GH = 0

I agree with your idea, but I am using the TDS, pH etc readings as indicators of change, rather than literal values.
Anyway I have experienced the "all stop now " with the breeding of the plecs.
Part of my thoery is about the natual buffering capacity of the tanks, and associated furniture.
The point that I have found which may be of interest to you is once the buffering capacity of the "tank" has been reduced then I found it nearly impossible (and frightfully expensive) to increase the buffering capacity with any degree of stability with any calcium / calcium carbonate based products.
Currently I am using Seachem Neutral Regulator, which I believe is a phosphate based product?
The stability of my systems is 100 times better than with the previous products I have used.
Time will tell I guess as to whether it makes a difference.
As you suggest the "rainy season" will be straight tap water.
Whilst I am by no means an expert on water conditions, nor do I have years and years of breeding experience, I do feel that I am understanding your water issues as you have described them. (and I have no intention of explaining why your water has changed)

I am very intereested in the results.
Cheers
Geoff

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Tap water tested at 86ppm with the TDS Meter and GH tested st barely 5dg while KH tested at 3dg.

Those sound good parameters for most SA fish, 86ppm TDS should be about 130 microS conductivity, and 5dGH is also absolutely fine. I'd be happy with 3dKH as well, but you can raise this with your coral gravel or sodium or potassium bicarbonate to 4 or 5 dKH if you are worried about acidosis (from the conversion of NH3 to NO2- to NO3- + H+).

The TDS levels on all of the 7 tanks are now between 113 and 126 ppm.

Job done, all you need to do now is monitor the TDS with the meter and keep it in the 110 - 130 ppm range, if you want to drop the TDS, you can just use a large tap water change. Because I'm not convinced that this is a mineral issue, I would add a conditioner containing EDTA to all your tap water if you don't want to go to the expense of having a HMA filter.

Currently I am using Seachem Neutral Regulator, which I believe is a phosphate based product? The stability of my systems is 100 times better than with the previous products I have used.

I'm not familiar with the "Seachem Neutral regulator" but I would be pretty sure it is a mix of monosodium phosphate and its conjugate base, disodium phosphate, these buffer at just over pH7 and are very stable, but you can adjust it about 1 unit up or down by varying the proportion of the acid and base.

The point that I have found which may be of interest to you is once the buffering capacity of the "tank" has been reduced then I found it nearly impossible (and frightfully expensive) to increase the buffering capacity with any degree of stability with any calcium / calcium carbonate based products.

Personally I'm not a great fan of "pH down" buffers, as a low pH maintained by a buffer is very different from a naturally low pH, but I've never had any problem with raising the pH. Have you tried the various DIY salt mixes on <http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/buffer_recipe.php> etc?

cheers Darrel

[MatsP]

Looking at Seachem's description of "Neutral Regulator", it seems to contain several other components, beyond the phosphate buffer.

"It softens water by precipitating calcium and magnesium while removing any chlorine, chloramine, or ammonia."

Sounds fantastic, but I'm not sure it's quite as good as it sounds...

Whole blurb is here:
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product ... lator.html

--
Mats

[TwoTankAmin]

Because I'm not convinced that this is a mineral issue, I would add a conditioner containing EDTA to all your tap water if you don't want to go to the expense of having a HMA filter.

Lets assume for a moment that there is an issue with heavy metals or pesticides or anything else in the well water that would necessitate the use of EDTA or an HMA filter. Forget about the spawning pleco side of things. What would you expect would be the effect on various fish, what physical or behavioral symptoms should manifest themselves on these species specifically:

Wild caught altums angels?
Domestic and wild caught discus?
Clown loaches?
Rummynose Tetras?
Assorted zebra pleco fry ranging from 1 -2 inches and assorted contradens fry ranging from .75- 2 inches? (All fry born in my tanks.)
FW shrimp and snails?

Also, while it isn't a huge difference, I mis-reported my tap TDS at 86ppm, they are 83 ppm. This is still up a tad from initial tests showing potential problems with levels in the high 70 ppms.

As to why I am interested in raising the KH, aside from its contribution to TDS, is because in several tanks I have a lot of bog wood which has a tendency to lower soften the water as well as lower the pH. On today's list of fishroom ToDos is testing the GH, KH and pH in several of the tanks both before and after doing weekly water changes.

Finally, due to some of the replies in this thread I have been doing further research into the water parameters of SA rivers, especially the Amazon. One of the more interesting things I ran across was this:

In the São Félix do Xingu region, southern portion of Amazonian craton, voluminous well-preserved Late Paleoproterozoic volcanic and plutonic rocks are grouped in the Sobreiro and Santa Rosa formations. The basal Sobreiro Formation (1.88 Ga) is composed of massive andesitic to rhyodacitic flows and volcaniclastic facies that are high-K and metaluminous, geochemically similar to calc-alkaline granitoids of volcanic arcs

From http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... archtype=a
Would this not relate to TDS levels in the Xingu? There are some interesting research papers (for which I can only see the Abstract w/o paying $30-$40 for the full paper]. They deal with mineralization and sediments in the Amazon, especially those originating in the Andes.

I also ran across this article:
"Dry and Rainy Seasons in the Tank

by Kristian Adolfsson
of Sweden, web site http://www.corydoras.net"

It discussed the various

"Spawning triggers in nature:

Below follows a list of the different changes that can occur during the rainy season's beginning and that might trigger a species to spawn. They are not listed in any particular order, and which of them various species need to spawn is not fully known.

Item # 6

Dilution of dissolved substances in the water
The longer the dry season lasts, the more salts, humic substances and organic material are concentrated in the water that remains. When the rain starts the concentration of these substances decreases due to dilution. The river, the stream etc. is diluted with rainwater that has zero hardness, which lowers the hardness and often even the pH.

How do we simulate these things in the tank?

Below are suggestions on how to simulate the different stimuli that are listed above. Which to choose depends on which species is to be bred. Certain species might require only a few, e.g. good feeding and a water change with lower water temperature, while others need most of the items from the list.

Dilution of dissolved substances in the water
Build a higher level of humic substances ( e.g. peat and alder cones) and salts (fertiliser, CaCO3, MgSO4) during the simulated dry season. Later, dilute with as soft water as possible when the rainy season begins (preferably RO water).

The full article can be found here http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/bre ... asons.html

[MatsP]

From this:
http://www.thekrib.com/Apisto/A-xingu.html

Rio Xingu would appear to have a conductivity of about 120 uS/cm in "dry season", and around 20 uS/cm in "wet season". That corresponds to a TDS meter reading of somewhere around 80 and 14 respectively.

--
Mats

[TwoTankAmin]

Thanks for the info MatsP. What I am curious about however is the fact that:

Conversion of conductivity to ppm is always an approximation since conductivity will vary with the water composition, pH, CO2 content, and temperature of the stream.

I also wonder how relevant is the fact that the two measurements that are referenced in that article were made about 12 years apart.

[MatsP]

Right, you can't say "X uS/cm = Y ppm" precisely - or even roughly. However, your TDS meter is a EC meter with "different numbers on the dial" (a bit like a car speedo adjusted from MPH to KM/H). The only way to CORRECTLY measure the TDS is to take a sample of water, keep it in an oven at 180'C, and weigh the remains when all the water has evaporated. All other methods are approximations. Note that I said "...on a TDS meter that corresponds to...". The word "meter" in that quote is important.

As to the measurements being years apart, yes, that is true. Generally, rivers that have been flowing for approximately 10 million years, and the chemical composition of wet season and dry season will vary within a range. These are just two samples from dry and wet season respectively. Clearly that doesn't mean that it's ALWAYS 120 uS/cm in dry season and 20 uS/cm in wet season. But it shows that the variation is much larger than what you PROBABLY are doing in your tank. And that your current water, from a EC perspective is about dry season.

Now, another point to consider here is that EC is probably more important than particular readings of KH, pH, GH, CO2 levels, or whatever else you care to measure. However, ALL of these are related in the sense that if you (attempt to) change one, one or more of the others will change too in some way or another. It is a bid like a baloon filled with rice that you are trying to make into a certain shape - if you push one place, it bulges out elsewhere - and it doesn't matter which way you push or pull, SOMEWHERE else there will also be a change.

--
Mats

[racoll]

Rio Xingu would appear to have a conductivity of about 120 uS/cm in "dry season", and around 20 uS/cm in "wet season".

Yes, Evers & Seidel (2005) report 120 uS/cm for the Xingu at Altamira at the end of September (peak dry season). I can't find a reference for when river flows are highest in March/April, as probably few people bother to visit as fishes are too hard to catch. I expect about 20 uS/cm is not far wrong.

That corresponds to a TDS meter reading of somewhere around 80 and 14 respectively.

My TDS/EC meter just divides the EC by 2 to get TDS.

Would this not relate to TDS levels in the Xingu? There are some interesting research papers (for which I can only see the Abstract w/o paying $30-$40 for the full paper]. They deal with mineralization and sediments in the Amazon, especially those originating in the Andes.

Not sure if you can extrapolate anything about water in the rivers from that paper.

For a good general overview, look out for the Smithsonian Atlas of the Amazon. It doesn't give you detailed breakdowns of water parameters in every river, but presents a really nice geography of the region's rivers.

[TwoTankAmin]

The wide difference in conductivity is impressive. In trying to simulate rainy and dry seasons, it is important to realize how widely they do differ. For the fish keeper the challenge is achieving a wide enough difference (along with some other factors) to trigger them. The numbers reported show a difference factor of about 5 or 6 to 1.

One way is to use ro water for the rainy season vs ones tap for the dry season. I have never used ro and would have problems using it due to space limitations. Fortunately, I have, until recently, been able to achieve results with very little effort. Skipping a water change or two was enough to get to dry season and then big water changes timed to storms and heavy feeding did the trick.

The current situation no longer seems to work that way. My solution is to raise the TDS to get to a dry season. I think for tap water of high 70s/low 80s ppm for its rainy season I would need to work things up to at least a dry season level of 150ppm and I think closer to 200ppm would be better. 80 vs 150 is still not a huge difference it is at least almost 2 to 1 and at 200+ ppm it becomes almost 2.5-1. I have found once they trigger, they go for some time even though I would work my way back to 100% tap fairly fast.

If I opt to use some distilled water mixed into my tap for the big water change I can get things temporarily down to about 50 ppm which would be 3-1 vs a 150ppm dry season or 4-1 for a 200ppm one.

I am still inclined to use Caclium Carbonate to replace the crushed coral in all this as pretreating water is a nuisance. I would much prefer to just dose and go rather that needing many hours of running coral in a filter.

I pulled all the bags of coral out of the filters today as they are now working to raise the TDS between water changes in an uncontrolled fashion. They performed their initial function nicely, but now more precision is needed I feel.

[MatsP]

I don't believe you need the dramatic difference that the natural river habitat shows. If that was the case, almost no one would achieve breeding of Hypancistrus spp., but lots of people DO breed these fish.

--
Mats

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Now, another point to consider here is that EC is probably more important than particular readings of KH, pH, GH, CO2 levels, or whatever else you care to measure.

That is certainly by belief, and a good summary post by MatsP. With the proviso that MatsP suggests, the conversion of conductivity (microS) to ppm TDS used by the meter is 0.62, so almost exactly the same as converting kilometres to miles.

Lets assume for a moment that there is an issue with heavy metals or pesticides or anything else in the well water that would necessitate the use of EDTA or an HMA filter......What would you expect would be the effect on various fish, what physical or behavioral symptoms should manifest themselves on these species specifically...........Wild caught altums angels? Domestic and wild caught discus? Clown loaches? Rummynose Tetras? Assorted zebra pleco fry ranging from 1 -2 inches and assorted contradens fry ranging from .75- 2 inches? (All fry born in my tanks.)
FW shrimp and snails?

The answer to this is that there are certain compounds that may be active at very low levels, the water could possibly be contaminated with a cocktail of chemical or metals that may act synergistically or only effect very specific parts of embryo development. We really don't know quite what the effects of hormone weed killer traces (we've had a problem in the UK with "aminopyralid" residue <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aminopyralid>) & Atrazine in water supplies <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrazine> or trace amounts of neonicotinoid <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid> and/or synthetic pyrethroid insecticides <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrethroid> are.

Pyrethroids are toxic to fish and other aquatic organisms. At extremely small levels, such as 2 parts per trillion, pyrethroids are lethal to mayflies, gadflies, and invertebrates that constitute the base of many aquatic and terrestrial food webs. Pyrethroids have been found at acutely toxic levels in sediments and waterways in California; the chemical is able to pass through secondary treatment systems at municipal wastewater treatment facilities causing the chemical to be commonly found in the final effluent, usually at levels lethal to invertebrates.

Even with top quality analytical kit, you would have to know what you were looking for, and have a library of compounds to compare against, the advantage of a HMA filter is that it should chop out all of these compounds, even at ppb levels.

Finally, due to some of the replies in this thread I have been doing further research into the water parameters of SA rivers, especially the Amazon. One of the more interesting things I ran across was ......

There is a really interesting paper "The Stage for Neotropical Fish Diversification: A History of Tropical South American Rivers" freely available here for more details: <http://www.angelfire.com/space2/strat_c ... hy_s_a.pdf>

To summarise it: You can basically split the rocks & substrate into 3 groupings that correspond with the river types. The "white water" rivers pick up and transport sediment from the Andes, a mountain chain which is still undergoing mountain building. The rock of the Andes is of both sedimentary and igneous origin, and the present mountain chain is also the site of "several pre-Andean orogenies", so has a complex geology with metal ore deposits (Potosi etc.), most of the rocks (Andesite - "plagioclase feldspar series") are calcium poor however. The extensive sediment deposits along the major rivers are largely derived form these Andean sediments, but there is also the effect of marine sediments from sea level change. The Amazon basin has extensive deposits of marine sediments, but these have been heavily leached and oxidised by the combination of warm temperatures and abundant rainfall.
These leached sediments form either lateritic (iron/aluminuim rich, other metals poor) soils or silica sand podsols. The "black water" rivers flowing across these laterites and podsols are sediment poor, but have extensive tannin deposits from leaf fall, which helps to contribute to the acid nature of this water and also acts as positive feedback as more leaf fall produces more acids which inhibit decomposition of the leaves. The final river types are the "clear water" rivers that flow across the ancient craton of the Guiana shield, these very ancient, very hard rocks are almost entirely inert and contribute neither sediment nor solutes to the water.

It softens water by precipitating calcium and magnesium while removing any chlorine, chloramine, or ammonia.

Definitely a phosphate buffer, any free ortho-phosphate (PO43-) will react with Ca2+ ions to form insoluble calcium phosphate compounds (~ CaH2PO4), so possibly "Seachem Neutral Regulator" might not contain any EDTA, but it may contain sodium hydroxymethanesulfonate (or similar compound) like Prime or Amquel do to complex ammonia.

cheers Darrel

[racoll]

Lets assume for a moment that there is an issue with heavy metals or pesticides or anything else in the well water that would necessitate the use of EDTA or an HMA filter......What would you expect would be the effect on various fish, what physical or behavioral symptoms should manifest themselves on these species specifically...........Wild caught altums angels? Domestic and wild caught discus? Clown loaches? Rummynose Tetras? Assorted zebra pleco fry ranging from 1 -2 inches and assorted contradens fry ranging from .75- 2 inches? (All fry born in my tanks.)
FW shrimp and snails?

The answer to this is that there are certain compounds that may be active at very low levels, the water could possibly be contaminated with a cocktail of chemical or metals that may act synergistically or only effect very specific parts of embryo development. We really don't know quite what the effects of hormone weed killer traces (we've had a problem in the UK with "aminopyralid" residue <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aminopyralid>) & Atrazine in water supplies <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrazine> or trace amounts of neonicotinoid <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid> and/or synthetic pyrethroid insecticides <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrethroid> are.

Yes, fish larvae are many orders of magnitude more sensitive to pollutants than adults of even sensitive species.

I think what Darrel and I are getting at though, is that there really is no way for know for sure if there are nasty chemicals that have gotten into your water supply. A good strategy would be to now eliminate possibilities such as water contamination with a HMA filter, for example. Once you rule this out as a problem, maybe take a look at other things. It certainly will make the water better quality regardless, and I don't think they are expensive.

Serious contaminants do seem unlikely, but it also seems unlikely that the hatching/survival problems are caused by a low TDS, when these fishes breed in the wild (and in other people's aquaria), in water of lower values.

I hope you find these suggestions useful.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I think what Darrel and I are getting at though, is that there really is no way for know for sure if there are nasty chemicals that have gotten into your water supply. A good strategy would be to now eliminate possibilities such as water contamination with a HMA filter, for example. Once you rule this out as a problem, maybe take a look at other things. It certainly will make the water better quality regardless, and I don't think they are expensive.

Serious contaminants do seem unlikely, but it also seems unlikely that the hatching/survival problems are caused by a low TDS, when these fishes breed in the wild (and in other people's aquaria), in water of lower values.

Racoll's post is a pretty accurate summary of what I think.

cheers Darrel

[TwoTankAmin]

Arghhhhhh-

Just started on weekend maint. routine. Tap TDS have dropped to 58-60. We did have a lot of rain this past week. I think there is a connection and that my idea that rain water is going through the aquifer faster is resulting in lower mineralization levels.

This week I am needing water with TDS closer to 140ppm for changes in order to raise breeder tank levels towards the 130ppm range.

One interesting note,3 tspn of Epsom and a scant 1/4 tspn of baking soda added to 20 gals of water which had been treated with crushed coral and raised to 102ppm resulted in TDS in the high 130s. Those things are pretty potent.

ps- Decided to check GH and KH- they have dropped to 3 and 2 degrees. I expected that before I ran the tests. I am about ready to order wild Altums. They should arrive just about when my TDS/GH/KH all hit 0

[apistomaster]

I would love it if my tap water was as soft as your water.
It would be conducive to my wild Discus breeding projects. Especially for Green Discus. For practical purposes, Heckel Discus are close to being lost causes for breeders. Altum Angelfish are just as difficult. Only a very small number of people have bred true P. altum from the Orinoco Basin. The fingers of one hand covers about all the documented cases.
There is more success among those who try breeding the Upper Rio Negro Pterophyllum that appear to be Altums but are not recognized by science as such. They are still considered to be a form of P. scalare.
It is likely that someday there will be a recognition that many of the present scalare varieties are actually valid species in their own right.
Your Altums should be very happy.
I sure hope that those who are brave enough to import small Altum this year have good survival rates. As twotankamin knows, we have a http://www.finarama.com administrator who is from Venezuela and he has been working with some Colombian tropical fish exporters as a consultant to improve how they handle their small Altums so as to give them a better chance of doing well. At the same time he has been working with a few importers in the same capacity.

For those who are not aware, Altum losses in the past have been so high that most exporters and importers have given up dealing with Altums because so many are lost. It has been found that the smaller specimens, those with a body size of about one inch, do much better than larger specimens.
Many larger specimens are caught stranded in stagnant waters and are already in decline. These fish rarely do well. But the small juveniles caught from fresh waters have proven to respond well to acclimation procedures and ship much better than larger Altums. This translates into higher success rates among everyone involved with getting them to market and for hobbyists willing and able to provide their Altums with extremely soft water with a low pH.

[TwoTankAmin]

Larry- I sure have taken notice and plan to get in on the altum season this year if some of the Atabapos are available I used a bunch of distilled water mixed with my tap to work with the first batch I have now.

Unfortunately, it has complicated the pleco spawning. I have not been able to make the sort of dry season the fish have become accustomed to every so often.

I am now more convinced than ever that excessive rainfall is one of the main culprits in my water issues.

[apistomaster]

For rain to effect your tap water it implies that much of your water is run off water from your water shed that is well leached of mineral content.
That is the case in the metro-Seattle area. Ground water is usually replenished over hundreds if not thousands of years. A given season's rain fall has no quick effect on ground water.

For what its worth, I just had my first spawn from my own 3 year old F1 L134 appear 4 or 5 days ago. Now I have my own F2 gen. They produced about 30 fry. I have always kept them in tap water with a pH of 7.4 and a TDS of about 340 ppm. I just set up two new breeding groups of entirely my own home bred fish about two months ago. I have done nothing but give them routine care. The only thing new is I reduced the number of potential breeders to about 18 to 20 each in 40 gal breeders and gave them their first caves a month ago. Until a month ago they only had a piece of wood, the heater and the two pedestal type sponge filters to hide under.
I try to change 3/4 their water each week but my schedule is really erratic. Some times they get a weekly water change and sometimes I skip a week because I don't feel like bothering. As I said before, I am an extremely lazy fish breeder. I treat all my wild type Discus and plecos pretty much the same way. It is what I actually do although I recommend that people try to keep up with their water changes better than I do.

I hope everyone who decides to get this season's Altum Angelfish have good experiences. I do admire them but I doubt I would succeed at breeding them. Altum Angels and Heckel Discus are tough nuts to crack.
I gave Heckels my best shot when I had 10 the last time. I'll never try them again. Just blue and green Discus from now on for me. The greens are a challenge tough enough but they do yield to the right care and conditions.

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Apistomaster wrote

For rain to effect your tap water it implies that much of your water is run off water from your water shed that is well leached of mineral content. That is the case in the metro-Seattle area. Ground water is usually replenished over hundreds if not thousands of years. A given season's rain fall has no quick effect on ground water.

This is certainly true of out tap water (from a limestone aquifer), although the water is pretty well calcium carbonate saturated (the local spring are "petrifying" and are surrounded by tufa deposits) the nitrate levels are very low (this is an arable agriculture area and the surface waters are nitrate rich), suggesting that the water has either been filtered through a lot of rock, or more probably that it is actually "fossil" water, and has been in the aquifer since before the widespread use of nitrogenous fertilisers in the late 1940's.

cheers Darrel