Red Whiptails(L10a) spawning

[apistomaster]

I just discovered about 50 eggs laid in a circular patch about 4 cm in diameter on the bare glass. The sand has clearly been cleared and the eggs are immediately in front of the mouth of one of the caves.
They were not ejected. They are adhered to the bottom glass.
This is not how I expected these to spawn. There are a couple adults which appear to be watching over the eggs .
This all seems very odd. If they are not eaten I should see fry in 7 or 8 days.

This is similar to Spatuloricaria in some ways but with a pedigree as mysterious as these, it is hard to know what is truly normal for this fish.

[DiscusDennis]

Wow apistomaster,
You make breeding catfish seem easy.
Just curious but how often do you do water changes? And how much water do you change?

Thanks in advance,
Dennis

[pleco_breeder]

I regularly see eggs outside the mouth of the cave when mine spawn. I normally put them in a tank away from the adults as the female, and any others not involved, will eat them if given the chance. Cherry shrimp make for great surrogate parents for these. You'll also find it interesting that they don't hatch as quickly as other whiptails. At 81 degrees, I normally see the eggs laid inside the cave hatch around 10 days. Those outside caves normally hatch around the projected 7-8 days and often don't swim correctly. I blame the lack of parental care for this discrepancy as I can normally get them to go the full term if I labor over them with daily water changes and tank cleaning. The fry are difficult to get started feeding in large tanks, but I've had good luck with twice daily feedings of microworms for the first two weeks before weaning them onto other foods.

Larry

[apistomaster]

Hi Dennis,
Breeding fish has been both my hobby and sometimes a business for over 4decades so I have had experience raising nearly all the popular aquarium fish and Discus have been my special interest during most of those years. I only became interested in trying to breed Loricariidae catfish about 6 years ago. I don't count breeding common bushy nose and until these later years I had only raised various Corydoras, mainly when I still owned a fish shop which had a larger quarantine and breeding area than what was used for my fish shop.
I have had many failures it's just we tend to write more about our successes than our failures. I was raising large numbers of Leopard Frog Plecos, Peckoltia compta, over the past 3 years but this year I haven't had any spawn for me yet despite having my old wild caught breeders and 2 groups of 20 three year old F1's set up in 2-40 gal breeders.

Hi Larry,
I have seen where some have noted that the adult L10a can sometimes cannibalize their fry. No reason why the non-brooding fish wouldn't go after the eggs but these have not been placed where they are by accident and the male is staying very near the spawn and not allowing others near the eggs. The spawn is almost 48 hours old and except for 2 infertile eggs so far, there have been no other losses. I wasn't really paying much attention to these as I am presently working on beginning to fill my pleco orders. The 8 young adult L10a aren't alone. There are 2 Betta coccina and a pair of Apistogramma trifasciata also sharing the 20 gal. Long tank but they seem to be ignoring the L10a eggs. I have never heard of them spawning in the open like these did. Since I wasn't very prepared for the spawn, this batch of eggs will be an experiment and left in place. The Apistos look occupied with their own spawn(finally) and the 2 Betta coccina are very small specimens and don't pose much threat.
I have been keeping Cherry Shrimp along in most of my pleco and Corydoras hastatus breeding tanks for many years but last summer it got pretty hot and my Cherry Shrimp populations all crashed. I replaced them with the Yellow form but those never took off. The male L10a is mouthing the eggs so that keeps them clean and protected as long as he doesn't decide to eat them. The fact that they decided to spawn in the open makes me think the male did not perceive any serious threats to the spawn. Until I see for myself, I am not going to assume they are cannibalistic towards their own fry. Fish which provide brood care as complex as Loricariidae very rarely eat their fry. If they do it would make me suspect they are not being fed enough animal protein based foods. I know I disagree with several breeders about to what degree some Loricariidae are more carnivorous than herbivorous. I have raised and conditioned these on only earth worm sticks, frozen blood worms and live black worms since they were only 1-1/2" TL. In my care they haven't even seen so much as a single Spirulina stick. I have never seen big Sturisoma not involved with the production of a spawn ever bother to eat any fry. I don't know why L10a would be any different but I don't doubt what other breeders have experienced. I do doubt the reasons they attribute as to the cause.
Basically this is not going by the book but fortunately fish don't read and I have often found ways of doing things that suit my lackadaisical approach which others would think could not possibly work. So I am going to play this as it lies since I have at least 3 pairs I am sure I will get more chances to try different methods until I find a way that is extremely easy. That is always my goal in fish breeding; doing ever more with ever less effort. I practice KISS all the time.

I am still interested in knowing if anyone else who has bred L10a has had them spawn in the open instead of a tube or cave.

[DiscusDennis]

apistomaster,
Pretty new to catfish and been checking out your L-134's & L-333's (Very nice!) but I decided to go with a group of bushy nose's. I figure BN's are more forgiving & definately less expensive.
I've had my group of BN's for a week now and been feeding them fresh veggies & Hikari algae wafers. Was wondering If feeding frozen blood worms would benefit (or harm) these little guys? They are between 1.5" & 2".

Thanks!
Dennis

[davidkozak]

Larry:
When I spawned them several years ago, the eggs went all over the place and I had to hatch them in a breeder net. I agree with you that if they're in a nice clump and the male is attentive, he will likely continue to care for them. David

[Unungy]

Congratulations Larry.

Saul

[pleco_breeder]

I've actually witnessed, only recently, what was occurring to cause the eggs to be outside the cave and it may or may not be a different scenario in your case. The female was backing up to allow the male to fertilize a recently laid group of eggs and released another group as she came out of the cave. They are still fertile, even though I've been told otherwise in the past, and should hatch perfectly fine if the male is guarding them. I simply remove them because I have so many deaths when I attempt to raise their fry in the larger tank. It's much easier for me when I group them close together to their food in a smaller tank/container.

I initially started raising them in a 5 gallon tank, but Arizona heat caused a lot of problems for them in the fish room. When I moved them inside the house last summer, I started using a sterilite tote hung in the adults tank and had much better success. The footprint of the container seems to be more important than the volume since a smaller area keeps them closer to their food till they figure out how to eat. By one month, they are usually around one inch and I place them back into either the adult tank or one of the spare grow-out tanks till they are about 10 weeks and marketable size.

They're not difficult, but expect some trouble as you try to figure out what works best for you getting them to eat. Most of the problems are gone around 10-14 days and it's fairly easy sailing from there. They're definitely a fun fish to work with, but can be nerve-wrecking till you get them figured out.

In a matter of four months last fall, I accumulated over 800 fry from a single pair. However, I took some heavy losses during the first couple spawns. There were a lot of spawns that only yielded 5-10 fry from over 100 hatched fry.

Larry

[apistomaster]

Dennis, Feeding more meaty foods to Ancistrus during pre-spawn conditioning is going tho help.
The higher protein diet helps them have the energy for egg production and the males fast more while brooding so the richer diet will help them that way.

I did not disturb the brooding fish but it does appear that there may very well be a spawn deeper in the cave and a second one at the mouth just outside the cave. It is clear that the visible eggs all show embryological development.
I don't expect these fry to be as difficult to raise as Sturisoma fry so that is the least of my concerns. No other fish are going near the exposed eggs so they seem to be being guarded well enough.
I handle my brine newly hatched brine shrimp differently than most. I harvest the entire hatch and run it through 2 separate separations of eggs from shells so I get very clean shrimp. Then I store them is a fresh brine solution in the refrigerator.
They remain usable for 24 hours and sink to the bottom which is especially useful for feeding catfish fry. I would be surprised if the fry don't also accept earth worm stick mush. Sturisoma fry do and they are more difficult than L10a to care for. I have to see for myself whether cannibalism by the adults is really a problem as I have never seen any other Loricaiidae species I have bred bother their own fry.
I will leave the fry with the adults in the breeding tank this first time because my experience may vary from others. If I encounter any feeding or cannibalism problems I will take precautions next time.

The L10a are some of my contingency species to raise in case I run into a problem breeding my P. compacta as I did this spring. F1 Nhamunda blue Discus I have should begin spawning this summer and are also part of my back up plans. Eventually I am sure my 3 year old F1 P. compta will begin to spawn. Perhaps not this year but very likely next.

[pleco_breeder]

I've never witnessed canabalism, so doubt you'll have any problem from the adults. The apistos may be a different story. Feeding will likely be where you run into a problem. I'd be interested to know if the "mush" works for you myself. I tried it, but stopped shortly into the experiment when I lost half a spawn overnight. Would definitely be easier than microworms if it can be made to work. I know that decaps don't work even when practically covering the bottom of the container with a misting.

Larry

[apistomaster]

I haven't yet met any Loricariidae species fry that won't eat earth worm sticks. It becomes soft enough for them within minutes.
I think the A. trifasciata are mainly focusing on caring for their own spawn. They do not usually bother small Loricarid fry. But it will have to be tried to see if this is true this time.
I see a fish over the eggs fanning and mouthing them part of the time. The brood care nay be being split between two broods of eggs. Those I can see and some inside a cave. Or I may have two separate spawns. I just don't know yet for sure. Both species fry should become free swimming at about the same time. I'll remove the adult Apistos then. I feed my Apisto fry the chilled brine shrimp and earth worm sticks so I don't plan to feed both fry any differently. It would be good if the l10a fry can be left with the adults as I do every other pleco species.
I like anything which simplifies breeding fish and raising their fry.

[apistomaster]

I removed the pair of Apistogramma and the next morning the eggs were all gone. They were about 2 days away from hatching.
Now the L10a are alone so maybe better luck next time?

[pleco_breeder]

IME, well fed pairs spawn about every 3 weeks, so it shouldn't be long before you have another chance. I'm still interested in finding out how much success you have with the sticks. I also feed kensfish sticks as part of my feeding regimen, not earthworm, and didn't get much response out of them. Most other stuff usually eats it rather quickly.

Larry

[toddnbecka]

I bred them last year, here's a few pics of the setup I used. The pvc "caves" were sitting directly below the aquaclear 70 in a 38 gallon tank. The tube with the male and eggs was moved into a 10 gallon shortly before hatching, then returned to the 38 after the fry were out. I fed the fry crushed/powdered NLS Grow pellets.






Week-old fry are still tiny:

[apistomaster]

Thanks for showing your breeding set up. It looks very functional.
I have females full of eggs so I do expect new spawns soon. The fry are smaller than I expected but then again, Sturisoma fry are not very large at first either.

Fish do become selective feeders on the foods they have become used to so sometimes it takes awhile to get them to try new foods.
Most of Kens Stick foods are not very different save one or two different ingredients but the base formalae are all very similar. There is not all that much earth worm in earth worm sticks just as there is only a little more Spirulina in the Spirulina sticks so basically most of them are fairly interchangeable.

I find Discus eat both foods but most prefer earth worm sticks to Spirulina sticks with the exception of wild Heckels. Heckels eat a higher % of vegetable matter than the other wild Discus species and are fond of Spirulina sticks. So I guess there are enough differences between his different foods for some fish to care.