L- List Availability in Australia

[bigbird]

Hello to All Australian L Aqua Hobbyists,

This list was is effective 26th April 2011.
If you wish to add or have others not on the list, please advise. I am aware money can buy nearly everything, but please let me know. thanks jk

L list - Availability in Australia
effective 26APR2011

Number Max Size Name
001 50cm Pterygoplichthys Joselimaianus
002 12cm Panaqolus
003 20cm Baryancistrus
004 12cm Hypancistrus
007 25cm Leporacanthicus cf Galaxias
010 25cm Loricaria Lata
010A 12cm
014 40cm Scobinancistrus aereatus
015 13cm Peckoltia
018 25cm Baryancistrus - adult form L85
021 40cm Pterygoplichthys Pardalis
022 also 001
024 40cm Pseudacanthicus
025 40cm Pseudacanthicus
027 60cm Panaque
037 20cm Hypostomus Flaveolus
046 8-10cm Hypancistrus Zebra
047 30cm Baryancistrus
048 40cm Scobinancistrus
049 15cm Peckoltia
052 15cm Zonancistrus
066 15cm Hypancistrus
075 25cm Peckoltia Sabaji
080 12cm Peckoltia
081 20cm Baryancistrus
083 40cm Pterygoplichthys Gibbiceps
090 40cm Panaque
091 25cm Leporacanthicus Triactis
102 10cm Panaqolus
104/ now 162 10cm Panaqolus
114 40cm Pseudacanthicus
121 12cm Peckoltia Braueri
127/ also 207 12cm Ancistrini
128 25cm Hemiancistrus
129 8cm Hypancistrus Debilittera
134 12cm Peckoltia
135 15cm Peckoltia
137 30cm Hypostomus/cochliodon Soniae
140 12cm Peckoltia
144 15cm Ancistrus
147 20cm Ancistomus
155 60cm Acanthicus
168 15cm Dekeyseria Zonancistrus Brachyurus
169 12cm Panaqolus
174 8cm Hypancistrus
177 20cm Baryancistrus
190 50cm Panaque Nigrolineatus
191 40cm Panaque
196 40cm Pterygoplichthys Lituratus
200 20cm Baryancistrus Demantoides Hi Fin
200 20cm Hemiancistrus Subviridis
201 12cm Hypancistrus
202 15cm Pekoltia Lineola
203 60cm Panaque
204 15cm Panaqolus
205 13cm Pekoltia
206 / LDA26 12cm Panaqolus
207/ also 127 12cm Ancistrini
226 12cm Panaqolus Changae
236 12cm Hypancistrus
239 12cm Baryancistrus Beggini
240 30cm Leporacanthicus
241 30cm Leporacanthicus
260 12cm Hypancistrus
262 10cm Hypancistrus
264 20cm Leporacanthicus Joselimai
270 12cm Hypancistrus
275 60cm Pseudacanthicus
278 12cm Peckoltia
282 20cm Pseudacanthicus
316 12cm Hypancistrus
330 60cm Panaque sp
333 15cm Hypancistrus
377 15cm Peckoltia
397 13.5cm Panaqolus
401 10cm Hypancistrus sp Rio Curva
600

LDA26/ 206 12cm Panaqolus
LDA27
LDA31
LDA33
LDA46
LDA63

[racoll]

What is this a list of exactly?

Most of these species are not permitted for import, as can be read here.

[bigbird]

this is a list of Ls available to buy in Australia. Sold by breeders etc. thks jk

[racoll]

Sold by breeders

A 60cm Pseudacanthicus, yeah right. ;)

All these fishes are far to large/demanding to have been bred locally on any scale. They could only have been brought in illegally.

Were they smuggled in, or do the customs officials really have no idea what they're looking at?

[bigbird]

Hello Racoll,

I do not know why you find this list so difficult to understand and you make such a fuss about it. other forums appreciate it and add comments for corrections. I really am also not interested in where you think they can from etc and by all means will not disclose this, but all I know is that these Ls are available on the market in Australia. Your comment about a 60cm..this is max size they can reach look at http://www.l-welse.com/reviewpost/showp ... roduct/290 . If you would take note on the top it states L number , max size and name. I am not saying there is one for 60cm for sale etc. I am searching for positive critisicm etc to keep our list updated, corrected etc, to keep these Ls alive and well in our market. Any other issues feel free to discuss. cheers jk

[Acanthicus]

.... but all I know is that these Ls are available on the market in Australia.

Available yes, but the question is if they are legally brought into the country? That´s all.

[MatsP]

So, is this a list of fish that "Someone has bought one of these at one point in the past" or "These are available for sale right now" - if the latter, would it not be a good useful feature to tell where they can be found as well as what they are.

And I'm pretty sure what is called L144 on the list is the same bright coloured fish that is

Ancistrus sp(4)

on this site, rather than the dull/ugly (personal opinion)

Ancistrus sp(L144)

.

--
Mats

[racoll]

Hello Racoll,
I do not know why you find this list so difficult to understand

Perhaps because you haven't explained it very well ;)

So you are a vendor and these are all species you have for sale now, or these are all species present in private collections in AU, or this is a compiled list of all species currently on sale through other third party vendors in AU?

The max size thing confused me, as it is common for export stocklists to have the approximate size of the species they are selling.

Thanks for taking the time to explain

[bigbird]

I am a backyard hobbyist of 35years in Aqua enjoyment. Not a seller or vendor, but pationate about preserving fish and enjoy breeding and observing and just sharing. The list is compilled by what is available on the market in Australia. it has been sent via many other web sites to see what Ls are actually in Australia. I am not interested where and how they got into the country etc. just wanted to know what there is available. So this list shows what there is in Australia by responses from various breeders and hobbiest. I am not selling etc and have never stated this in the mail. I am just asking for amendments etc from Australian breeders of Ls if they have anything else to contribute or other members to correct me in spelling, data etc. It is just a list. By all means if the poss size anoys you I will remove it. I find it hard to believe that in this forum a basic questions turns into a really weird onslaught. There is nothing malicious inteneded etc. My basic and very basic question is what Ls are available in Australia. So I started a list. Whats wrong with that ? Info is gathered from other sites, for sale items etc. Is this wrong in this forum ? I was under the impression we all would like to be informed and keep most species of Ls alive and breeding? Cheers for your input rgds jk

[racoll]

It may have been obvious to you what the list was for, but it wasn't very clear to me.

Thanks for explaining. I understand now.

[MatsP]

So, technically, they are not "available" - as in, there is no guarantee that any of these fish is for sale at any given time. But there are (or have been) specimens of these fish in Australia.

--
Mats

[Shane]

Bigbird,
Truthfully the original posting looked like an importers/retailers availability list to me as well. I can see easily why Racoll came to the same conclusion, although he also asked if that was what you were indeed posting.
Regardless of the initial confusion, I am sure many hobbyists in Oz appreciate what you are doing.
-Shane

[Firestorming]

Hey BB, I get what you are doing. One thing I am unsure about is the genuine availability of 377, each time I have made a trip anywhere to buy them they have turned out to be 278, happy to be corrected as 377 are on my list of desired L's.

You can also add LDA068, now that they are seperate from L104.

[bigbird]

Hi 377 are available in SYD. I have seen them and I also bought 2 of them. SO if you wish PM me and I can pass you on details if you wish. Thanks for the other infos and I will amend. cheers jk

[Shaun]

Without trying to be negative..."availability" is probably the wrong term for lists of this kind. If a fish has been sold sold in Australia once or twice then it's not really available is it? Searching any of the Aus aquarium classifieds (plecoplanet, Boronia, SydneyCichlid, Perth, and planetcatfish etc) for 5 minutes will give you a pretty good idea of what's available all the time, and that's what most L enthusiasts are going to buy - stuff that's easy to get. Making a comprehensive list of what's here is fun, but ultimately useless.
If you can get me a trio of adult L091, I'll take them
Shaun

[bigbird]

Hello Shaun,

Thanks for your input and maybe the comment of availability is granted. Yes looking at all the other web site, the standard 333/066/201 etc etc are offered. Yet for those living outside of Australia, should know that in Australia market, pairs of L going for higher prices are sold by whom you know and are not advertised so to speak. Prices for rarer Ls are at the extreme and these people wish to remain annoymous.
As you have responded to this ,mail
1. What Ls do you have at the moment ? I have 6 x 004, 7 x 333, 4 x 082, 2 x 377 and 2 x 134.
2. What price are you willing to pay for a trio of L091 , give me a firm offer and I will check my contact ?

cheers jk

[Firestorming]

Hello Shaun,
2. What price are you willing to pay for a trio of L091 , give me a firm offer and I will check my contact ?

cheers jk

Bazinga!

I bought what I thought was L377 originally and has since turned out to be 278's I got them from both Sydney sources and Brisbane

[Jools]

2. What price are you willing to pay for a trio of L091 , give me a firm offer and I will check my contact ?

JK,

If the purpose of this post is to list all l-numbers in Australia, then arranging a trade in them would appear off topic?

Jools

[bigbird]

Dear Jools,

Thanks for that, I was just responding to the post by Shaun, who said this list was useless. He then asked me if one can get the L091 with sarcasim. I then placed the ball in his court. Also asking him what Ls he has and what price is he willing to pay for the Ls. Are you aware of Ls pricing in Australia and the huge prices they demand ? Not like in my home country of Germany where you get them for peanuts so to speak.

All I was asking for is the cooperation from AUS members who know what other Ls are out there. I just cannot believe the amount of negativity I am getting ONLY IN THIS FORUM. Maybe I should have written in my starting post - Ls That have been or are in Australian Circulation. What is the harm of trying to get a catalogue of Ls that have been or are in this country ? This forum is nothing but negative even though i have explained this many times. Why ? Do all other forum members know what Ls are in their country or even endeavour to try and find out or keep a list ? All other forums have come back with positive and new Ls they have, but this one I hit a brick wall. It is actually quite sad, a hobbyist asking for help to get a list of what is in this country and then to get this negativity and only in this forum. I can tell all of your critics, these Ls are here and if you have the correct contacts there is no problem and as they say money talks. I am not going to justify my mails, but i am not a seller or dealer just cant believe how you hammer into my mails. cheers jk

[Jools]

First of all please calm down and don't shout. The reason for my interest is that this is a black market and one that includes CITES registered species. I am keen to monitor the legal position. I would like to do that in a calm, civil and unemotional way.

Look at it from my point of view, here are two things you've written...

2. What price are you willing to pay for a trio of L091 , give me a firm offer and I will check my contact ?

i am not a seller or dealer

How do I know which one is true please?

Other forums (that I don't run) will have different rules and probably different community culture. If you're going to post in this one, then you and everyone else needs to stay within the rules and to get the best out of the forum a understanding of its culture helps.

So, I think I (and, clearly, others too) just don't understand why you want to maintain a list of what L-numbers are available in Australia. It is contentious becuase, as I say, it's a black market and the majority of the fish you list entered into the country illegally.

Maybe a list of captive bred fish and coming at it from a conservation angle might prove more fruitful?

Jools

[bigbird]

Ok Jools,

Thanks for that. This all started when people started asking what is available or has been available in Australia. So I started a thread and asked members to kindly advise me of what Ls are in this country. So that is how I started this vision of trying to get a list together for our future stake in the preservation of the Ls. There is no black market, most Ls are sold and advertised on various forums openly. There is only the concern of telling too much as these Ls in Australia cost a fortune. look at L046 selling on the market in threads for AUD 1100 for 5cm . So if you have 20 of these plus others as a breeding, you do not advertise too much. Also look at the 282s, I bought 4 for AUD 2500, some might disoute these being 97s and being questioned even in Germany as no 282 are in the market at the moment. SO my intention was to list Ls of what is know be be here. Not for selling etc as I publicise this list and updates regularly, it was more to show our interested L hobbyist what is availbale if they want it. This then is where I am at. In all honestly, reading through not one positive reply, I wish you would just delete this post, as I find it of none benefit to anybody. Not one reply from an Australian member, except criticism oh no L377 available and L091 etc. But when I put the ball on their court no response. Anyway just to clear the air, if you wish to delete this thread then do so. I have no problem with this and will then go to other sites where all has been positive. cheers and have a great day jk

[Jools]

JK,

It looks like a black market to me - how else would you define it? Look at the language - some illegally imported animals, some illegally exported animals, CITES registered species, dealers, anonymity and sky-high prices. How much of this revenue attracts GST? So, it appears to fall within a generally accepted definition to me.

This is an international forum, so you're going to get replies from folks outside of Australia. Many have an interest, I'm a paid up member of ANGFA for example.

Excepting SPAM, the mod team don't delete other peoples posts - you never know when the same thing will come up again and its important to be consistent.

So, happy to just leave the thread here, I can lock it if you wish. But let me be very clear, I am also very willing to support any conservation initiative of populations of these fishes "on the ground" in Australia. Maybe that's best done through the sites features however - the "My Cats" function for example.

Jools

PS Just out of interest, what other sites?

[MatsP]

So, happy to just leave the thread here, I can lock it if you wish. But let me be very clear, I am also very willing to support any conservation initiative of populations of these fishes "on the ground" in Australia. Maybe that's best done through the sites features however - the "My Cats" function for example.

We need a "find fish kept in <country>" then, don't we?

--
Mats

[Jools]

We need a "find fish kept in <country>" then, don't we?

Well, it's a bit off-topic, but it'll be done by organisation, which are often country or region specific. More elsewhere soon.

Jools

[ceh]

omfg .....I think the guy just wants to know what is available in Australia
does not need everything to be so complicated and illegal
are many fish are sold in Europe that are prohibited for export but is regularly cultivated in our aquariums
means anyone who owns L46 is associated with an illegal trade

[Jools]

omfg .....I think the guy just wants to know what is available in Australia
does not need everything to be so complicated and illegal
are many fish are sold in Europe that are prohibited for export but is regularly cultivated in our aquariums
means anyone who owns L46 is associated with an illegal trade

No need to use an acronym with a swear word in it please. There are kids that use this forum.

Meantime, I don't see your point. Ethics aside, none of these fish are illegal to import under European or EU member state law. They are illegal to import into Australia under Australian law. Are you suggesting we ignore a countries law just because it is not the same as our own?

Jools

[Shaun]

Well...feeling somewhat guilty my joke got out of hand.
Bigbird, I was using L091 Leporancanthicus triactus as an example of a fish on the list I'd like to keep, but I've only seen them for sale 2 or 3 times in Australia (in 20 years), so they're a good example for lack of availability. I thought the tongue thing might make it obvious: but it turns out you are selling something
I'll state my position: I'm with Jools. I'm more interested in "all catfish" than L-Numbers and being a person involved with conservation at a local and national level, I STRONGLY disapprove of the illegal smuggling of any fish, bird, reptile, plant etc into Australia. Through work I have a lot of contact with AQIS, Customs, Fisheries, DPI and DAFF and I agree wholeheartedly with what they're doing. I'm also a member of ANGFA

There is no black market, most Ls are sold and advertised on various forums openly.

There most certainly is a Black Market. These fish can be traded openly due to a loophole in our laws. Only fish on the Permitted Import List: http://www.environment.gov.au/biodivers ... t-list.pdf can be legally imported into Australia. Fish on the Noxious Fish List are illegal to keep(This list varies from state to state). These 2 lists do not cover all the fish species in the world, so the stuff in the middle is generally referred to as "gray area", this includes fish that have been here since before the import restrictions started in (I think) 1983, such as Bristlenose and Red Devils. L-Numbers sit firmly in this gray area, they're illegal to import, but not illegal to keep or sell. Unless you're caught smuggling them in, you can't be prosecuted for possessing them. This system is not great, but it's the one we have at the moment. There's a grassroots movement to change the Permitted Import List going on, but I doubt very much that L-Numbers will be added as a blanket term, as Jools pointed out, many are illegal to export from their native countries.
For the record, I keep 2 L-Number species, one was legally imported and the other was locally bred.
Shaun

[bigbird]

Hello Jools,

Thanks for your replies. Cheers jk

[Jools]

Thanks for your replies.

You're more than welcome, I hope they were of some use. Meantime, would you do me the courtesy of replying to my question?

Cheers,

Jools

[Firestorming]

By the way mate, mine was not criticism, just pointing out what I had discovered in my endeavours, have a look at my thread re 278 vs 377, pretty sure I added an LDA to your list.