Otocinclus Breeding

[sdm]

A combination of James' good stock and my dumb luck has led to some fry in my tank. Right now there are two about 3/4" and two 1/8" fry in a net breeder on my one and only tank. If I can get to them before the rainbows I'll try to raise any others that show up. Other than feeding zucchini and Ken's vegetable sticks I've done nothing for them. I'd post a picture or two but it's too hard to see them through the net.

[James0816]

Still not much happening in the breeding world. Hopefully they are just taking a break after the last failed attempt. The females are huge like they are getting ready to explode!

Taking this opportunity to do some major trimming. Working with the holding tank first. Wow. The Sags and Crypts have done very, very well in here. I know I keep saying it, but definately need to work on that Java Fern. It's half the tank!

I want to rescape it and replace the cypress knee with something else and of course this would eliminate the JF for the most part. I'm still thinking though.

I'll follow this up with thinning the crypts in the Cocama tank and then hit the main tank.

[Vlacek]

Hi,

thought I could share pictures of my new little guys who are just three days old today. I have probably five of them, two in breeding tank, three remained in main tank.
I'm not sure what exact kind of otocinclus they are I must admit. I have only two adults in one tank, accidentally it's male and female. Female (41mm long) is about a year older than a male (30mm long). Water conditions are temp 22-23°C , 7dGH, 6dKH, pH 7.0-7.5, tank mates - corydoras duplicareus, c.panda, danio margaritatus (had to remove the adults because they were after the fry and eggs) anethome helena and clithon sp. snails. Feeding - nothing special for ottos but they seem to like tablets containing 20% of spirulina algae. I have seen only one spawning attempt few weeks back but without ever seeing eggs so I thought no luck here. Then I started seeing eggs on the glass in the morning but these usually disappeared quite quickly not sure who was a culprit. Just before a week, couple of eggs remained on sagitaria leaves. I firs thought they are not fertile because they had no color or were lightly white not like c.panda's ones which get darker over the time. So I was surprised when I first saw a fry I haven't done anything special to induce spawning. Will see how will they do

Vlacek

[James0816]

Excellent! Glad to hear more stories about these little guys. Maybe we as hobbyists are turning the corner with them.

[James0816]

Still dormant in the breeding. 20% water changes in all tanks this weekend. Some plant trimming. CO2 needs recharged so will work on that the next couple of days. Water tests pending.

Funny thing....I found a boat load of Tiger shrimp in the filter of the Vittatus tank. Was completely shocked at how many were in there. I will have to put on a better prefilter I recon. There are no gaps between the filter and the intake which is leading me to believe they are some how working their way through the sponge as babes and then getting sucked up. I have to do some major population control on them now.

Some good news on the Cocama front. I am soon to receive a nice donation of a couple of beautiful ladies in the next week or so (weather permitting). This portion of the project will finally get under way. The guys have been by themselves too long. I was getting ready to place another order for more when this opportunity developed.

[Vlacek]

Some news from me and plea for help.
News - it's been three days another 6 otos hatched I moved 4 eggs to breeding tank and then found two left in main tank. Those left in main tank probably got eaten by young danio margaritatus within 24hrs, those in the breeding tank are doing fine.
From the first hatch I have two in breeding tank and I think five in main tank. There is extreme difference between these two groups. Fish of the same age (19days) are 17mm (TL) long in breeding tank while only 8mm long (TL) in main tank! The think is that breeding tank glass is heavily covered by algae while there is hardly any in main tank. I'm not feeding in breeding tank at all. Fry in main tank only cleans glass and plants. Not like parents who also feed on sinking tablets containing 20% spirulina.
And now my problem - I found it very hard to identify exact species I have. Can anyone help please? Here are some pics. I have bought five otos alltogether and I think I have probably three different species.

[Vlacek]

...and another two. Any tips appreciated.

Regards,
Martin

[James0816]

Great News! Morning check of the tanks and I found (5) wigglers in one of the tanks. Awesome! Funny thing, I never saw any eggs so this placement was in secrecy. I didn't stay down there too long as there was a lot of activity going on. Females are scanning the terrain with males at a close distance. Might have a bigger spawn getting ready to occur.

This was ahead of a planned 20% water change today. I will hold off on the WC in the tank with the fry and just do a water test and see what kind of parms we have. The fry are in one of the tanks that had a higher than normal nitrAte level.

Fresh zucchini to be prepped.

[James0816]

No sign of the wigglers today. Would be very hard to spot just (5) anyway if they aren't on the glass. Will continue to monitor. Activity level still up so will keep a watchful eye on things.

[Vlacek]

Sad news on my side. I founded out that from two batches I had 22 wigglers in the end. I moved 18of them into breeding tank but after couple of days looks like only 6are alive (including my two largest who were in BT since hatching). No idea what could have caused this. Maybe because different type of algae is now in the tank? Four left in main tank also seem to have disappeared. Will see how it goes but I had to start feeding in breeding tank, just for sure.

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Try putting a small slice of courgette(zucchini) or cucumber in with the fry, hopefully as it softens after 12 hours or so the fry will start to feed on it. You will need to leave the courgette in long enough so that it softens, but not so long that it compromises water quality. This is much easier with a fry trap (where the tank water circulates) where the courgette can be left for 48 hours or more, rather than in a separate small volume tank where it will need replacing more frequently.

Once the fry are feeding on the vegetables you can stud the vegetables with some algal wafers or flake, and over time hopefully they will eat these as well. Another option is to make a paste of egg-white, crushed flake and spirulina powder, this can be painted onto small, rounded pebbles and allowed to dry. When dry the pebbles are placed in with the fry, and again as the mix softens hopefully the fry will graze on it.

cheers Darrel

[Vlacek]

Hi Darrel,

thanks for advice. I've just put slice of zucchini into all my tanks. I do so from time to time but never did in breeding tank. Will see how will they like it. However, looks like those who survived are doing well even without zucchini. Another reason why I lost so many could be that I've put in one alder cone into breeding tank.. It made water brown and could have caused pH to drop too much. But then why would all died in main tank where I didn't put any cone or leaves? They could have starved but probably wouldn't all die in so short period. Hopefully remaining six will survive until adult.

Regards,
Martin

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I don't think we really know all the factors that causes "unexpected" mortality in Otocinclus spp., but I'm fairly sure starvation is a common one. My suspicion would be that loss of water quality is another one. I'm not sure about the Alder cones, you definitely could have too many, but I use them a lot now (rather than oak leaves or oak bark) with Beech leaves, partially because they have a complex structure (in the same way a filter sponge does) which can harbour biofilm and provide aufwuchs for the fry. I also have a lot of small bits of planted wood (usually "Java moss" and a Java fern (often Windelov)) when these are in "storage" I stack them (like a giant game of Jenga) in the main tanks, and I just put a suitably sized bit in with all the fry, I also always add some floaters, usually Salvinia. I've also been experimenting with free-floating Utricularia gibba, as it forms natural tangles, and offers hiding places for both food organisms and fry. I also like a thin layer of sand even in small fry containers. I think a combination of these factors may help with both water quality and providing a less stressful environment for the fry. I don't tend to do any "housekeeping", but I now routinely add Red Cherry Shrimps and MTS to all my fry tanks, and I change a lot of water, something like 50% a day in all small tanks, and no less than 10% a day in larger ones.

This isn't the only way, but it works for me. I know of at least one successful Otocinclus breeder (and of many, many more catfish - Jo Crane of Rare Aquatics in the UK), who follows an almost entirely opposite approach, with very bare tanks, bare bottom, no plants etc, but she is absolutely fanatical about cleanliness and water quality.

Best of luck with your remaining fish, I've found as soon as they recognise Cucumber/Courgette as food it is pretty plain sailing after that.

cheers Darrel

[James0816]

Sad news on my side.

Sorry to hear that. The fry are very tough to raise. It is not uncommon to lose 75% or more of a brood.

[James0816]

This isn't the only way, but it works for me. I know of at least one successful Otocinclus breeder (and of many, many more catfish - Jo Crane of Rare Aquatics in the UK), who follows an almost entirely opposite approach, with very bare tanks, bare bottom, no plants etc, but she is absolutely fanatical about cleanliness and water quality.

Feeding can get a little on the tricky side of things. What I have started doing was feeding a powderized blend after about the 3rd day. I blend dry ingredients up into a very fine powder. Then mix a small portion with tank water to disolve. Pour this over random spots in the tank, usually where you notice the fry hanging out. The particles will settle in and amoungst the leaves making a fine coat. The fry will eventually start grazing and the rest is history.

As for Zucchini, I have found that it normally takes to around day 5 or so that they will hit it. That's about as early as I've recorded. I do blanch the slices for about three minutes (no longer) to get them nice and soft. When it floats up to the top or is getting really bad, I will replace it. I don't have a "set time" that I leave it in there for. When dealing with 50+ fry, it usually doesn't last too long anyway. ;o)

[James0816]

Got back from the docs office with my daughter. All is well with her hand. They confirmed an incomplete non-conforming fracture. Whatever that means. Nothing serious and should heal up nicely.

Went downstairs to dose the tanks with ferts. Made it to the bottom step when I noticed the "hornets nest of activitiy" going on in one of the tanks. Tell tell signs of a spawn. I did notice (2) females and it looked about (4) males working over the Bacopa section.

I'll go back down in a bit a check on things.

[James0816]

Confirmed the spawn in one tank. Was able to locate a few eggs in the Bacopa as suspected. The ladies are working deep in the Crypts and Java Fern at the moment. Now the the Amano's are at test. We'll see how they do with eggs in the tank. Granted I can only see a few eggs at this time, but at least I know where to look at the moment. If they go missing, the Amano's get moved; plain and simple. Did manage to dose the tanks while I was down there. Limiting my activity around there since the spawn is still going on. Probably won't be returning until later this evening.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Feeding can get a little on the tricky side of things. What I have started doing was feeding a powderized blend after about the 3rd day. I blend dry ingredients up into a very fine powder. Then mix a small portion with tank water to disolve. Pour this over random spots in the tank, usually where you notice the fry hanging out. The particles will settle in and amoungst the leaves making a fine coat. The fry will eventually start grazing and the rest is history.

That would be a very good technique if you don't have too much flow in the fry tank, I've done very similar with a lot of small fry and it works pretty well.

cheers Darrel

[James0816]

So far so good with the Amano's. All of the eggs that I can see are still accounted for. They (Amanos) are pretty close to where the eggs are but so far have left them alone.

15% water change ahead of tomorrows anticipated hatching. Prepping fresh zucchini.

[James0816]

As expected, the eggs are hatching. I didn't make it home before the lights went out but using the lighting in the room, I was able to find (3) wigglers. Still no idea as to how many may be in there or how many to kind of sorta look for. We'll give er a go tomorrow and see what may be.

[James0816]

No sign of any wigglers today.

Will continue to monitor the tank over the weekend. Otherwise, just routine maintenance.

I did unfortunately find a dead Tiger shrimp in the tank; female with eggs. Been a while since I tried to artificially hatch any eggs so I'm gonna give it another go. I striped the eggs and placed them in a tea ball. This was then placed directly over the air bubbles from the stone in the same tank. At last check, the eggs were getting good movement in there.

[James0816]

Been a rather busy day. Did manage to spend about 10 minutes in the fish room. I did spot a wiggler today. Awesome. Hopefully there are more but at least I managed to find one.

[James0816]

Tried to snap some pics yesterday but they didn't turn out well. The fry I have seen are hanging out on the top side of crypt leaves near the water surface. Makes it hard to get the shot.

Water changes on tap for today.

Think I have formalized my rack plans (for the moment). Here are my planed tank assignments:

O. Cocama w/ Caridina propinqua (Special thanks to Todd who is donating a couple of female Cocama's. My original shipment was all males)
O. Macrospilus w/ Caridina serratirostris (Ninjas still not available as yet)
O. Vitatus w/ Caridina gracilirostris (Special thanks to Rachael who has made a contribution of Red Nose for the breeding efforts - and Amano's too)

Still have tanks waiting for O. Flexilis and O. Mimulus if I can locate them.

Lots of big plans on schedule for the warmer days. Ton of work to get things better organized. Looking forward to the expansion and continued efforts.

[Vlacek]

Hi James,

I kind of got lost in this thread and not sure what species from your list have you actually managed to breed? Is it just o.vittatus or more? I think mine ones are vittatus but no one has confirmed. I've just bought two pairs of otto negro - Hisonotus leucofrenatus so will see how these guys will do but I'm a bit worried about their cooler water requirements which are ok for the winter but difficult to maintain in summer
Quick update my end - six remaining ottos are doing fine. They started enjoying zucchini 24hrs after putting it into the tank. One thing that I realized - I've lost many ottos few days after adding crystal red shrimps into the tank. Probably just a coincidence but just for the record.

Good luck with your plans! I was looking for o.cocama here too but the price is significantly higher than for otto sp. (more than $20) so maybe sometime in the future when I'm more experienced...

[James0816]

Glad to hear that they are still going.

I have been successfull with O. Vittatus up to this point. The O. Macrospilus are starting to show signs of a spawn so I'm watching that tank very closely. The female has started the ritual and the male is always close by. {keeps fingers crossed}

[James0816]

The Good, The Bad ... and the Ugly. That is how I will say this update will be.

We'll start with the Ugly. Came home and found (13) dead Tiger shrimp. All adults. Very odd. Thankfully all Otos are accounted for. No clue as to why the dead were only adults. No babes or juvies appeared to have been impacted. I have absolutely no clue as to what would cause this. I will do a water test in a bit.

On to the Bad, which is actually tied in with the Good. My shrimp shipment arrived today. Red Nose and Bamboo. The bad news was that one of the bags the bamboo shrimp were in leaked out. Oh No! Shrimpy was and still is alive. All shrimp are acclimating nice and slowly.

To the Good...outside of the shrimp arriving today, I also found more wigglers. Yay! Makes me feel a little better.

I'm still bummed about the Tigers. Maybe the test results will tell me something.

[James0816]

Went down to check on things and found yet another dead Tiger. Decided that I needed to do an emergency 25% water change. I also dosed the entire tank with Primes.

Some things to note but doubt they are a factor:

- Temp dropped down to near 70. It's fluctuating around 10 degrees from night to day. Suspecting a bad heater as it should remain around 78. Swapped out for a different heater and will see if I hit target temp prior to retiring for the night.
- pH came in at 7.2. Not concerned at all with that as it is only a .2 swing from norm.
- All other parms are normal and in the target range to include nitrAtes which is back to 20.

I'm also wondering if maybe I should run some carbon in the filter. Hmmm...will have to see the results from this water change and go from there.

[James0816]

I think my photo taking skills have dimenished greatly. I can not get any good shots of the fry guys. They are growing up nicely. Great coloring. They will meet their first water change this weekend.

At the main Vittatus tank, things still not looking so good for the Tigers. Losses continue to mount up. While not giving up, I have all but resigned to losing the colony. In a last ditch effort, I have removed about (50) babes and will relocate them. I have them in two seperate specimen containers which are inside another tank to keep heat on them until I'm ready to put them in their temporary home.

After which, I have broken down this tank but not completely. I have uprooted all the plants except the crypts. Even the great wall of Subwassertang has come down. To be safe, I had a large bowl of water standing by to keep the wall in while I did the work. I knew there was going to be shrimp hiding in there and was correct. Once I placed the wall in the water, I began to see several shrimp swimming about. As mean as it sounds, I unfortunately was willing to sacrifice these few for the good of the colony. The water was aged and I'm sure the pH was off by a good 1/2 point.

After this, I did a major gravel vac of the entire area; about 1/2 the tank. Now granted the water parms didn't support a major task as this but I felt I had nothing to lose. Pulled out all kinds of goodies. The two jugs are just completely dark. Took about 30 minutes for this and made sure to hit it as good as I could. When done, I started adding fresh spring water back to the tank via drip method. No filter is running at the moment due to the water level but have an air stone currently running. I dumped the bowl with the Subwassertang back into the tank. Hopefully those shrimpies will be ok.

Taking a break while the tank is slowly refilling, I have been watching the Oto's just going all over the place. Their activity is so high at the moment. It's as if this is what they have been waiting for. Papa Oto is so confused. He starts following one female around when another passes by which causes him to shift gears. They are just everywhere at the moment. Several shrimp are getting blind sided by them as they swim through the crypts.

Once the water level has topped off, I will reassemble the Subwassertang wall and get it back in place. I'll eventually be removing all the Tigers in favor of the Red Nose only to keep the numbers in check. This should allow the Otos open range of the tank with minimal activity.

Will recharge the CO2 after all is said and done as well.

[James0816]

Best shot I can manage to fire off at the moment. These little guys are just under 2 weeks. The made the water change just fine ... so far. It's only been a day.



They are grazing the leaves well going after the powdered food.

[James0816]

Started putting the main tank back together again. Not real happy with the way the Subwassertang wall turned out but I think it will be ok once it gets bushy again. I think I made it too compact. It just looks different. I think I have it lower than it was last time. I may build up that corner a bit but we'll see. Probably will wind up redoing it using a thinner portion of Sub.

Activity remains high so I have to get all the stems replanted and soon.

On a plus note, there have been no further Tiger casulties of late. I'm working on the new Tiger tank so they will probably make the move in the coming weeks. Once they have been relocated, the Red Nose will move in permanently. Being a low order breeder, this will keep the shrimp population/activity down for the Otos while at the same time maintaining the tank.

CO2 to be recharged today. I pulled it during the past week due to all the craziness going on in the tank.