L-173b from Glaser

TwoTankAmin · Post by **TwoTankAmin** » 01 Apr 2011, 02:43

As I promised a while back, I have taken a number of photos of the 7 fish I got via Glaser in Dec of 2009. I recently had to move them into new, more spacious, digs and used the opportunity to have my brother take pictures for me. There are 26 photos in all for the 7 fish and I felt trying to post them all here was a bit too much. What I have done is created a special gallery where they can be viewed. the pictures are Labeled Fish1, Fish 2 etc ,. and they go in order, if you are interested you can view them here http://twotankamin.smugmug.com/Fish/L-173b/n-chr5b

The original pictures were shot at a much higher resolution and they have been reduced 75-80% in size. When viewed in their original form the underside shots are amazing.

A always, I welcome all comments on these fish and what they may or may not be.

bigbird · Post by **bigbird** » 01 Apr 2011, 03:12

very nice fish indeed..cheers jk

plecomanpat · Post by **plecomanpat** » 01 Apr 2011, 04:15

Beautiful patterns and colors,fish #2 looks like a male in the one picture

TwoTankAmin · Post by **TwoTankAmin** » 04 Apr 2011, 17:51

When I posted this thread I was sure I would get at least a few responses telling me why my fish were not 173s and maybe one or two saying they could be. Considering how much discussion this topics has garnered in other posts, I am surprised there is no discussion here.

Should I take the fact that not one comment has been made as an assent from the PC cognoscenti that these fish are exactly what they were sold to me as?

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 04 Apr 2011, 18:15

Hi!

I think that this has been discussed a few times already so basically I am not sure anyone wants to comment again on what they are or what they are not (which is possibly the easiest thing to do).

My opinion hasn't change on this fish from my last intervention regarding the Id of such fish plus the fact that the ID of juvies of this Hypancistrus species group is even more a nightmare than to ID adult (which can be a nightmare also)

You will find a number of person to tell you they are this and the opposite number to tell you they are not...

If you happen to have spawn in the futur it will be important to sell (if you do sell them) under the ID you got them at the date you had them.

Not sure the debate will be more constructive this time than the other time, so basically everyone is sort of staying out.

The only thing I could eventually say from your pictures, they seem to be highly variable, with a range of colouration/pattern than could basically fit any other similar patterned Hypancistrus sp Lxx from the Rio Xingu

Cheers
Yann

TwoTankAmin · Post by **TwoTankAmin** » 04 Apr 2011, 20:51

Yann- Thanks for the input.

What I have come to believe about this whole issue is that there is nobody who really has any clue as to whether any of these various Hypancistrus species are actually distinct species, hybrids, cross breeds or variations. I have read on a number of sites and books with interest hoping that somebody would actually shed some light on this subject to no avail.

I think long before any of this gets resolved most of these fish will long have gone extinct in the wild and then it will all become moot.

pleco22 · Post by **pleco22** » 04 Apr 2011, 21:39

Hi,
don't get me wrong, but why do you think these fish are 173b from Aquarium Glaser? Do you get them directly?

Problem is - none of these fish shows any typical characteristic of L 173. That does not mean, that they are not L 173, but I would be very disapointed if I get this kind of fish for such a high price.

Post by **Janne** » 05 Apr 2011, 03:10

They are not L173, some looks like L66 and others as L333 youngsters, the first 1-2-3 or so show deformities on their snout/head shape. When these are adults it will be much easier to tell if they are L66 or L333, i really doubt that these are bought from Glaser as L173b...

Janne

TwoTankAmin · Post by **TwoTankAmin** » 05 Apr 2011, 03:23

Here is how I got them http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 24&t=28414

chris1932 · Post by **chris1932** » 05 Apr 2011, 04:12

Janne

Its pretty easy for you to say that were not sold as 173b. But I still have the boxes they were shipped in and packing list.

ceh · Post by **ceh** » 05 Apr 2011, 06:56

l333 ...100% i have 20 of them in my aquarium

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 05 Apr 2011, 10:26

Hi!!

the one "deformed" look to have a problem in their growth rate, keeping wasn't too good...eyes are too big compare to the body, which usually happened when kept in a too small tank with unappropriate conditions.

Regarding these L173b...the one I have seen before (live) were also looking like that and were indeed really coming from Glaser (except they were not deformed)
Another point I have always wonder why these fish german bred are sold as L173b while I have never seen adult wild caught being sold that way...

Again like I said these fish raise for me many many question which I cannot answer

Cheers
Yann

pleco22 · Post by **pleco22** » 05 Apr 2011, 20:22

Hi,

sorry to say. But something went wrong. I have to say that the price is very high for L173. I have visited Glaser sometimes and I have seen L 173b. They are beautyful fishes in best condition. As I wrote in another posting, L 173 is very variable but usually easy to identify as semiadult and adult fish.

chad320 · Post by **chad320** » 05 Apr 2011, 21:48

Still great looking fish!!

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 07 Apr 2011, 20:59

I've been asked to look into this thread. Could I just get a couple of things clear in my own head.

Twotankamin, first, is the fish shown below, one of these L173b sold as such by Glasers in 2009?

Second, chris1932, I am sorry I'm not sure of the history here but do I understand correctly that you imported this fish from Glasers into the US and sold them to twotankamin? Apologies if I have missed this detail in older topics.

Jools

TwoTankAmin · Post by **TwoTankAmin** » 08 Apr 2011, 01:22

Yes- I acquired all 7 fish pictured at the link I posted in my original post for this thread. I got the fish from Chris1932 who purchased them for me and I picked them up when we met at a mutual friend's house not far from where he lives soon after. I was not the only buyer at of the fish at this time. The fish were imported by a group of folks that brings in fish from various countries including, from Glaser. Chris 1932 is part of it. When I got the fish 2 were 2+ inches and the other 5 were 1.75 +/- inches TL. They went right into a tank where they stayed until they were moved at which time they were photgraphed one by one.

The pictures were taken for me by my brother who is a professional photographer using equipment too expensive for me. He has no experience shooting fish. I told him I wanted to be sure to have a shot of each fish from above, from each side and from below. I explained I wanted to get good shots of the patterning, of the eyes to show their color and the vents to help in sexing.

The camera used was Nikon D700 using a Nikon macro lens. This camera produces 2 files for every picture taken. one is called a raw and is extremely large and detailed so it can be professionally edited using advanced software. The second file is a jpg and the camera was set to produce the highest quality. I shrank this picture down from a 4,256 x 2832 pixel 5471K file to a 700x342 pixel 78K file for posting here. I am unable to upload the original sized shot but I can email them and have sent you a full size copy.

Here is a photo which appears on the Glaser site of 173s- this one is what they label as Hypancistrus spec. L 173 Nachzucht.

The page it is on found at http://www.aquariumglaser.de/en/hypanci ... n_986.html

Post by **Janne** » 08 Apr 2011, 03:34

chris1932 wrote:Janne,
Its pretty easy for you to say that were not sold as 173b. But I still have the boxes they were shipped in and packing list.

I didn't say that, I said I doubt that Glaser sold them as "L173b" because they should be more serious than that, however we all can make mistakes and so even Glaser. Not easy to id small sized Hypancistrus, but that don't change the facts, these are not and should not be called anything similar as L173. The first pictures show a deformed Hypancistrus and that is also only facts, it happens to all breeders from time to time and is nothing to get upset over... either you or TwoTankAmin have bred and grow the offsprings so the problem is probably at the German breeder that bred these.

The last pic of F. Schäfer show 2 different bred species or youngsters of WC and the fish in front is probably L173 and the one in the background is a L66 or L333 youngster.

Janne

dconnors · Post by **dconnors** » 08 Apr 2011, 04:09

In aquarium Glaser's fish archive they list 3 different types of L173...http://www.aquariumglaser.de/en/fish.ph ... 18&lang=en

TwoTankAmin · Post by **TwoTankAmin** » 08 Apr 2011, 05:12

I didn't say that, I said I doubt that Glaser sold them as "L173b" because they should be more serious than that

No Janne that is not what you said, scroll up and see what you actually wrote was:

i really doubt that these are bought from Glaser as L173b...

Chris did buy these fish from Glaser as L173b for me, so I did in essence buy these fish from Glaser as 173b. In any case I clearly stated they were bought from Glaser as 173b.

As I promised a while back, I have taken a number of photos of the 7 fish I got via Glaser in Dec of 2009.

As far as I am concerned you were saying you doubted what I said, or to put it in a less flattering way- either I was wrong because I was duped or else I was lying. The fact is the fish were bought from and sold by Glaser as 173b. And in this respect, it doesn't really matter if they are or are not 173b.

The last pic of F. Schäfer show 2 different bred species or youngsters of WC and the fish in front is probably L173 and the one in the background is a L66 or L333 youngster.

I do not care which L number that fish is- look at the head and face- it is the same as the fish in my pic which you claim is deformed, it could almost be a clone. So what are now saying is that Shafer takes pics of deformed fish and that Glaser displays pics of deformed fish on its site?

Next, lets go to your copy of Ingo Seidel's "Back to Nature Guide to L-catfishes". The following Hypancistrus appear in the book and have similarly shaped heads (and some with the large eyes) and can be found as follows:
Page 109- photo #5 an L199
Page 110- photo #2 an H. inspector and photo #4 an L004/005
Page 112- photo #5 an L201
Page 113- photo #7 an L250
Page 115- Photo #1 an L333 Poro do Moz, and photo #3 collected at Porto do Moz and either a new species or an L333 variant
Page 117- Photo #7 an H. sp, "Rio Curua"
Page 117- Photo #10 an L173 (not as short as the top one above)

Are we then to believe at least some of the fish in the book are also deformed?

Since many members here may not have a copy of this book, lets look at a few more Ingo pics on the net.

So are you saying Ingo takes pics and this site posts pics of deformed fish???

Want to see a few more more of his pics on the net?

I am begining to wonder if maybe I am imaging all this?

OH- btw- here is the 4th pic of the same fish, but shot from a different angle, which I chose not to upload:

ceh · Post by **ceh** » 08 Apr 2011, 06:36

what did you pay for this fish here l 333 7-8 cm you can buy for 35 euro but l 173 or l173b cost 70-100 euro if you finde one

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 08 Apr 2011, 12:49

Chris,

I think you need to take into consideration that this is an international forum and that English is not many contributors first language. So instead of trying to win arguments, we should all chill out a bit and try to get to the bottom of each others meaning.

There is no personal attack going on here, people are trying, with the best endeavours to respond to your request for feedback. I would not blame them for avoiding any further responses but it is good that we're all trying to clear this up.

Does anyone actually know what the history of "L173b" (as opposed to L173 - which clearly Glasers think is different otherwise why the "b") is? I do not.

From your photograph, don't you think the eyes are unusually big in relation to the size of the fish? I think this is Yann's point and I agree the fish doesn't look right. I don't think that's a slight on your (clearly dedicated and skilled) abilities as a fishkeeper, it could be a problem with the breeder of the fish for example. So, one can't say it's your, your supplier or Glasers "fault". Where I have seen such problems it is my experience (limited, I've only bred three species of Hypancistrus), that they happen in the first few days of life.

So, if we could all just bear in mind that we're trying to help each other, and that we are expressing opinions, then we can get back on track. I really don't want to have to lock a thread with so many well meaning contributors.

Jools

TwoTankAmin · Post by **TwoTankAmin** » 08 Apr 2011, 17:29

Does anyone actually know what the history of "L173b" (as opposed to L173 - which clearly Glasers think is different otherwise why the "b") is? I do not.

Jools this is what Glaser says on its 173b page:

19.Feb.2008) After a long break back in our stock: German offspring of L 173.

I assume that the b designation therefore refers to 173 offspring which were bred in Germany. Another way I would guess it could have been described is as "German bred F1"? This is what I assumed the b designation meant. I suppose we could contact Glaser and ask.

I also notice that there are several other L-numbers which have a letter added on by Glaser but when I look into the PC L number resource here, there is no corresponding fish listed. Here is a list:
Cochliodon spec. var. marbled L 360a
Hypancistrus spec. L 173b
Hypancistrus spec. L 236x
Panaque spec. „Papa Ojo Chico“ L 90a
L 200 und L 200a

Only the last fish, L200, the 200 and the 200a might be used to indicate Baryancistrus demantoides vs Hemiancistrus subviridis. I have no idea what those other letters might mean.

Please don't close this thread as I have said all I want to on this subject and I would hate to see others who might wish to add comments not being able to do so.

One last note, to those who have asked what I paid for the fish, without meaning to be rude, it isn't anybody's business what I pay for my fish. What I will say is that in America we should expect to pay more for any Glaser fish than folks who buy them wholesale directly from Glaser in Germany or from one of their local wholesale customer's retail outlets. The American who imports their fish has to pay in advance, has to bear the risks of losing fish either because they suffered from transport handling, delays or stress. They are entitled to make a profit for their risk and capital outlay. In addition, there are currency issues- the exchange rates fluctuate. So it really isn't fair to compare the costs of fish in Europe or Asia vs the USA.

When the dollar is strong against the Euro or Deutschmark, then the cost to American buyers will be lower and vice versa. I have lost out on a few fish over the years because the Japanese buyers could pay much more due to favorable exchange rates and all the fish got sent there.

matthewfaulkner · Post by **matthewfaulkner** » 08 Apr 2011, 19:28

TwoTankAmin wrote:
I also notice that there are several other L-numbers which have a letter added on by Glaser but when I look into the PC L number resource here, there is no corresponding fish listed. Here is a list:
Cochliodon spec. var. marbled L 360a
Hypancistrus spec. L 173b
Hypancistrus spec. L 236x
Panaque spec. „Papa Ojo Chico“ L 90a
L 200 und L 200a

Only the last fish, L200, the 200 and the 200a might be used to indicate Baryancistrus demantoides vs Hemiancistrus subviridis. I have no idea what those other letters might mean.

I can only speak for L090a and L360a, but these are simply used to differentiate unusually marked specimens that resemble an accepted L number but don't have their own designation yet. I've seen various letters added to L090, from A to E, all just different ways to say . And L360a is known as in the Cat-eLog.

Off topic, but another L number that gets heavily added to is L027 or Panaque cf. armbrusteri. Again, I've seen L027 A - D, each denoting a river variant because no other L number exists.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 08 Apr 2011, 19:41

TwoTankAmin wrote:Jools this is what Glaser says on its 173b page:
19.Feb.2008) After a long break back in our stock: German offspring of L 173.
I assume that the b designation therefore refers to 173 offspring which were bred in Germany. Another way I would guess it could have been described is as "German bred F1"? This is what I assumed the b designation meant. I suppose we could contact Glaser and ask.

I also notice that there are several other L-numbers which have a letter added on by Glaser but when I look into the PC L number resource here, there is no corresponding fish listed.

This isn't an exact science but that's because they're widely accepted trade names. L010a is the classic example. They are not l-numbers in the sense that they were introduced via DATZ. The extra letters are something of an Aqualog add on and, in the main, add rather than remove, confusion.

Anyway, I would not assume the b means F1 and I also would be very cautious about them. I mean, if their parents are L173, why not sell them as L173?

For me the L173b is a way of saying like L173 without saying they are or are not, but still make them commercially attractive.

Jools

ceh · Post by **ceh** » 08 Apr 2011, 20:33

I asked for the price of fish because I wanted to know the price of fish in the USA and nothing else
I did not thought it was so private, I'm sorry,

HaakonH · Post by **HaakonH** » 08 Apr 2011, 22:30

The 'b' simply means it's German bred.

I know Glaser has customers in the Asian market, and judging by the pricetag on nice specimens of these Hypancistrus there I wouldn't be surprised if the individuals with the most striking pattern are shipped in that direction for higher price. L173 is variable, there will be many specimens in a stock that don't look as appealing as most buyers expect and want. So, Glaser can't avoid a certain amount of baffled and disappointed customers.

On the other hand, Glaser is making a great job keeping it a secret who breeds the fish for them. Everyone would love to see the parentfish used to breed, but this information is just not available. If you buy L173 from Glaser you expect to get what you want, but that doesn't necessarily turn out to be the case...

The depicted fish has too large eyes. The fault is likely to lie with the breeder. Glaser should know better than to ship out such specimens, but they don't. They sent me a flatnosed L173 once, I got a refund after I complained.

Haakon

ceh · Post by **ceh** » 09 Apr 2011, 06:31

HaakonH wrote:

On the other hand, Glaser is making a great job keeping it a secret who breeds the fish for them. Everyone would love to see the parentfish used to breed, but this information is just not available.

http://www.l173.de/impressum.html ........

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 09 Apr 2011, 07:50

Hi!!

Well I can explain a few things there:

the fish named L-236-x means it is a bred fish, you will see after the species name...g.br, which mean german bred

L90a
L200a
L81n
etc... are denomination they used in the aqualog but never actually represented a real L-number, they often got none or had it afterwards...if they had none, it was mainly because it has been used in the hobby for a long time

On the other hand, if you look correctly over the internet or in books and magazine, at no moment a L173b has been mentioned
If indeed they are what they pretend to be, why using a different code system than the rest of the fish. This make no sense.
What I understand...possibly an adult is L173, but the young they produce do not look like the adult (which basically take down the whole possibility this fish represent a "real" species by itself and would only show it is either a natural hybrid or an aberrant coloration of another "species"
Last possibility, one of the parent is indeed L173, the other is not...

Cheers
Yann

HaakonH · Post by **HaakonH** » 09 Apr 2011, 08:31

Ceh,

I was under the impression that Will is not the breeder for Glaser? I'm pretty sure I read a statement from them about the issue somewhere...actually I think it was posted on their website, but I can't find it there now. Anyway, Glaser's L173s don't look anything like the ones presented on the L173 website.

Yann,

You're right

the x is commonly used after the nubercode to show it's an aquarium bred fish. In fact, the 'b' is only used very rarely. I'm going to ask them what it's meant to symbolize.

Haakon

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 09 Apr 2011, 09:02

Hi!¨

Regarding Will, I am sure they are not their breeder as well.

a good friend of mine is a breeder for them...but not for the L173 for sure

Yes both look different
it is very possible the fish is indeed a natural hybrid or an aberrant pattern fish...which suprise me it is a high variability of pattern within a small group of tank raise fish...although variability is known within the genus Hypancistrus, such high variability within a "species" is suspicious

Cheers
Yann

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