Newly Adopted & Ill Eupterus

[andywoolloo]

I thought Andy said he had coral but with my new pH levels can't use it.

I have all regular sand in my tanks, freshwater tank sand. Coral is for Saltwater tanks, altho I do use some little amounts here and there of crushed coral (very fine like sand) to add to my tanks on occasion if I have a ph issue.

But all mine are freshwater sand. Like either play sand from hardware store or caribsea for freshwater or mixes of play and carib.

[GoldenFeather]

debauwi cats don't get to 5".

Don't be humbled re the fishroom, many users of the forum have not spent as much time and effort as you have in researching and providing for your fishes. I think it is they that have something to think about. I've only got a fishroom because I worked at it, it's far from perfect.

Jools

Thanks for everything. This is just quick the Cat-eLog lists them at 5". Or maybe I'm looking at the wrong debauwi? Highly possible given it's me.

But have a problem (nxt pst = but have to write it still), so will be back at the much appreciated responses and information. GF

[Jools]

That's bad data in there, I really don't think it's 5". Anyway, the species you find for sale is this:

Pareutropius buffei

. 3" is still too big, I've not seen them bigger than 2" SL.

Jools

[GoldenFeather]

Hi Everyone,

Here I'm in an emergent situation, at least I think I am, and I fall asleep. Having difficulty with the injury still. blalblabla...

Nui has those spots again, that Andy just brought up the other day asking about them. Jools (I think it was) told us they were tubercles. I knew at the time I should have gotten further clarification. I think he was looking at the things on his nose not the spots maybe. But, they did disappear, they're back.

This a.m. I was doing a water change (50%) and after I'd added an extra bucket to the fresh tap (conditioner - PRime) so that I could dilute what ever in the tank and then go back and and draw off the added 4 extra gallons with the vac. Did all that... then with the fine net spent a half hour looking for debris. It's been rather difficult with the catappa ambered water. I removed the leaves by the way not knowing that they are not the source of this worm??? Nui is not at all happy about it today... sad sad sad

As I stood there sieving through the water with my eyes – I saw a longish, quite thin, white worm wiggling its way down the tank. Caught it, freaked some and tried to find more. I found one more on Nui. His Pectoral fin, (I think) left side. It was wiggling and aimed at his gills I believe. But am not sure. I took a picture, its a blur you may see if you like but tells nothing more really. Then I immediately frightened him by fanning water at his head, it floated off and out of his bridge space. Caught it and could (and still haven't) find more.

I've learned from Mats I "faff off" when I'm nervous... so I'll stop here and put up some photos. Send you other details afterwards. GoogolPLEX Help

GF & Nui...

photos begins:

• 

  white spots - left face (others on body as well/some new)

The white spots on the side of his face have always been there. I looked through past photos. He also has them down his side. I've seen other Euptera with them as well, commonly placed on the side of the body at least. Not the face. But they look very similar. They've enlargened a bit and there are some others. It think a couple on his underside. I see more of them through the zoom lens on the DC
-----

bumpy spots return in concentration - this week

bumpy spots on face - concentrated at nose area and down barbles (tubercles???) These are the same as last time. They cleared up well. They just returned this week.

-----

• 

  Worm in glass... (1st caught)

The other worm didn't look as long as this one. I've tried to find others, no luck so far. What is it and how to get rid of it. The only medication I have is the Quick Cure I listed at the beginning of this thread - that I'd put away as we all thought his skin would return to health with a proper diet (which I'd cut and am only now beginning to return to) and balanced water. Well m. I'd bought it due to the white spots... on and down his side. I've seen these or "like" looking white spots on other Euptera, so put them down for natural. I seemed to take notice of them on his face last week or so. They don't look the same now though. Their edges are less defined, blurred a little

I have other photos if needed.

Thank you everyone...

"oh my poor Nui..... "

[GoldenFeather]

That's bad data in there, I really don't think it's 5". Anyway, the species you find for sale is this:

Pareutropius buffei

. 3" is still too big, I've not seen them bigger than 2" SL.

Jools

Can I post it in the "bugs" forum?

GF

[MatsP]

I've updated the size of P. debauwi to 104mm (4" approx), in accordance to the data in fishbase - don't know where the 5"/126mm measure came from. I also added a section saying that it's often incorrectly labeled, and the fish in the trade most frequently is P. buffei (we should also add a species identification - GF, can you raise a "bugs" request for that).

As to P. buffei, it's listed at 8.1cm in fishbase, which is a tad shorter than 3", but I'm reluctant to change that. I double checked that with Seegers book, and it also says "max size around 8cm". I don't really see the point in reducing the size by a few millimeter - I don't think it REALLY matters.

--
Mats

[andywoolloo]

that teeny weeny worm might be planaria,if it is it's harmless,comes when there is a bit too much food in tank I think.

Extra vacs and less feeding gets rid of them, if it's planaria, you can google it and see if it matches what you have.

As far as the sprinkles go on his whisks, maybe you just have an awesome camara. With my naked eye I can't see sprinkles on my guys whisks but I'll go peek again. also check the euptera pics on this site, see if they have some.

The white dots along the side are part of his lateral line I think, see this from this site



sometimes it's seen more noticiable on one fish than another.

this pic from PC shows the white on the face, probably good camara and probably normal like Jools says.



but I am not seeing the sprinkles on the whisks there.

[GoldenFeather]

that teeny weeny worm might be planaria,if it is it's harmless,comes when there is a bit too much food in tank I think.

Extra vacs and less feeding gets rid of them, if it's planaria, you can google it and see if it matches what you have.

Ah'ah. Nope. Not it. But have found some photos that match with googles image find. I took another photo of it swimming tonight (it's weakening but still alive). I'm posting it in hope that someone will recognize it in that position. The size is very like a tubifex but hadn't fed any to him for three days. I had hoped you were right, I have increased the food but it's the same as his normal diet was in the 10 gallon. So not too much for the 48 gallon I would think. Plus, he's only been upped to his normal diet amount the latter part of the week now.

I've had to feed Nui with the net this past week. He wouldn't venture outside his bridge or pipe. He acted like he didn't want to eat, won't rise to the surface. All food still there hours later even. I've tried through to morning and still no surface eating. And also, his feces amount and color first, doesn't match what it was before I cut his diet in the 10 gallon. Secondly, it has changed in shape and color. I apologize for speaking so frankly about such things publicly and mean no offense but see no other way of breaching the subject. I was wondering if you and/or Naturalart would mind telling me your Eupteras' diet content, amount and schedule. And also describe its' (the food's) end result (body waste) color, size, amount. I need to be able to measure what is normal. Even if they're not eating the same, I can get a realistic idea of what I can expect and when I am observing a symptom, red flag, issue. I've fed Nui frozen bloodworms the last three days, increasing the amount each evening. His appetite has returned. But wanting him to get back to getting his food on his own I've released the worms little by little into his make-shift "caves" with great response. I know he used to love getting his food almost in a frenzy. Loved it...

So here's the photo... if anyone recognizes it please let us all know please...

white worm from Nui's tank - now in glass

worm.jpg (25.62 KiB) Viewed 3109 times

Sorry about putting that drafting mess up... hit the wrong link

Googols, GF

[GoldenFeather]

The white dots along the side are part of his lateral line I think, see this from this site



sometimes it's seen more noticiable on one fish than another.

this pic from PC shows the white on the face, probably good camara and probably normal like Jools says.



but I am not seeing the sprinkles on the whisks there.

Hi Andy...

Thanks Googolplex style for responding to these things. It must be "turbercles" as Jools had said last time. I was thinking with a worm it had to be ich. Okay wel... Oh I had read up on "tubercles" and they also vary from fish to fish, like the dots along the lateral line as you mentioned. However, it changes on each fish increasing when they are near their spawning time. Which is when I'd asked Jools if we could find a wife for Nui...

I sooo hope this is the case rather than ich. Nui's just feeling a little randy...

Okay, next

Thanks also for the photos Andy, they really help me understand things and in this case were a comfort. I appreciate that.

Googols Again (and again and again... Plex like),
GF

[MatsP]

Looks like Planaria to me. See this:
http://www.fishdeals.com/fish_diseases/ ... ite_worms/

--
Mats

[GoldenFeather]

I've updated the size of P. debauwi to 104mm (4" approx), in accordance to the data in fishbase - don't know where the 5"/126mm measure came from. I also added a section saying that it's often incorrectly labeled, and the fish in the trade most frequently is P. buffei (we should also add a species identification - GF, can you raise a "bugs" request for that).

--
Mats[/quote

Okay ,

I'd be glad to submit a request for "identification" in the "Species Information" for the P. daubwi... Do I have it right though? I'm thinking that's what you're referring to. Thanks for asking me... feels good. That "species" area is always the most interesting to read in the Cat-eLog.

Okay... Need to go worm hunting.. Hope yous over there 'cross the dark Atlantic have a beautiful day lighting your path throughout it!

GF

[GoldenFeather]

Hi All...

Taking Andy's advice I've done my google search and ended up deciding, unless otherwise corrected here that the worm is a "planeria". White I think when you and then brown/grey etc. They come from having uneaten food waste in the substrate and over feeding. Well we have and have done neither. But I recalled that I had given Li'i a new cave. An upside down flower pot with a hole in it. I placed it on a catappe leaf and left it there without touching it for now... mmm four days +. I moved it this a.m. to vac/syphon under it. It was loaded with her poop and two old wafers and a couple sinking catfish pellets parts.

Evidently I disturbed these worms when I cleaned it up. EeeYuckoagageeargh'uh. I hadn't wanted to move it for a while to let her settle into it. She actually did react to it which is unusual. She flipped when I moved it out and took her catappa leaf. Poor sweeting. I can now give them their catappa leaves again. Just one each though and that after soaking out lots of the color tone out of them first.

Andy, the instructions I found varied from yours for this worm... I'm posting the steps here they list to get rid of this. I think that we've caught it early in the process (???)... I don't know about the salt, I've read you shouldn't use it w/ finless fish ie: cats. Also, I've read you can in urgent situ's.

Instructions to remove Planeria (white) worm – I found online:
Source-URL: http://www.fishdeals.com/fish_diseases/ ... ite_worms/
"Here are my recommendations.

1. Clean Your Aquarium. In particular you should clean your gravel with a Gravel Washer.

2. Add Aquarium Salt to your aquarium up to a maximum of 1 Tablespoon for each 5 gallons of water.

3. Don't Over React. Clean your gravel every day with the Gravel Washer. When you've removed 20% of the water, stop and top your aquarium back up with tap water. Repeat this procedure every day.

4. It may take several days of gravel washing to get your gravel really clean. When it is finally really clean, begin removing gravel, until it is at most 1/4" deep. If you have an under gravel filter you'll need some more advice.

5. Add Quick Cure. Each day after you clean your aquarium and wash the gravel, treat with quickcure.

Repeat steps 1 to 5 listed above, until you don't see the worms any more. This procedure will take several days and require quite a bit of your elbow-grease, but it's the safest method for the rest of the fish in your aquarium.

Reduce the amount you feed your fish, as well as the frequency of feedings. ###

OKay,, if it's deemed here by friends that we do have this particular worm (planeria) and if it's thought I should follow these steps, then it needs to be modified. Not by me, I trust someone else, one of the gurus, to do the modification rather than I. Thank you for your invaluable time... you know I very much appreciate it. Very much...
Take care all you, Googols,
GF

[andywoolloo]

I never did anything for planaria cept reduce feedings or amounts at feedings and upped gravel vacs and water changes.

So Nui isn't eating or is just eating one thing?

I feed mine every other day, but they are big. Mine get a rotation of the following:

defrosted frozen Hikari (shrimp, tubifex, bloodworms, krill)

Sinking Kens sticks: earthworm, 5 stick blend

Sinking Omega One shrimp pellets

Sinking HIkari carnivore pellets

Sinking NLS cichlid granules

Tetra tropical granules

Spirulina flake

they also like the discus bio gold from Hikari

for my five i feed two little square packages of the defrosted frozen every other day. the other foods I just add some in. If there is some left after 5 mins you fed too much.

So for one or two with your other fish in there, maybe half a frozen square? and some pinches of the other foods on the other days? You must chop the frozen hikari block sqaure in half tho and wrap the other half in saran wrap and keep in freezer. Do not let the whole block defrost and them save it in the fridge. If any of it defrosts and you dont feed it right away get rid of it.

[MatsP]

I've never treated the tank against planaria either - I have seen them from time to time in my tanks, at which point I know I've put too much food in. Just feed a bit less.

Fish very RARELY starve to death...

--
Mats

[naturalart]

Hello GF, I have to tell you I don't keep any S. eupterus right now. I fell in love with my S. shoutedeni's and had to get rid of my eups because of space.

I'm not totally convinced that the worm you have is a planarian, but it may well be. It could also be a stray "tubifex" worm that got away. It could have also hitchhiked in on one of the cattappa leaves, or even from the ten gallon. I agree with making sure your gravel is clean and watching for excess food in the tank. One can easily feed fish to death.

Fish go through stuff just like humans do. Nui probably ate something that didn't sit well with his stomach, and consequently was sick for a few day. If his appetite is back and he is acting normally I wouldn't worry too much.

giggleplex

[MatsP]

Okay ,

I'd be glad to submit a request for "identification" in the "Species Information" for the P. daubwi... Do I have it right though? I'm thinking that's what you're referring to. Thanks for asking me... feels good. That "species" area is always the most interesting to read in the Cat-eLog.

GF

It is just something to remember it by in the bugs section, as I'm currently working on something else, and I need to look up the ID difference and write it down in my own words (or someone else that can edit the Cat-eLog can do it). But if it's just in this thread, it's likely we'll forget.

--
Mats

[GoldenFeather]

but I am not seeing the sprinkles on the whisks there.

No not on this one, no whiska bumps. He's not close to that spawning time...??? But on his pectoral fins.... see those ridges. I'm wondering about them. I had read an article (not the same one that spoke to spawning season and bumps) that said the reason they call them Squeakers is because rub this fin against their sides to produce the sound. Also, there are little ridges along that lateral line we spoke of earlier with the white dots... maybe that's what they scrape them against? ... I forget how they described the sound. They didn't say "squeak" though. Is this the fin they speak of and would those ridges be how they produce the sound when they ruent types she was quite attached to. The little boy said he thought they were hungry so shared his iced tea with them...argh

Well, thank you once again for seeing us through a seemingly emergent crisis. When you don't know what's going on everything seems so drastic. At the same time, we have had some drastic experience too.

We hope today, that everyones' fishes are in thriving health and pure pleasure...
GF

[MatsP]

The noise-making comes from the inside of the fish, where they have little ridges that they can rub against each other. The false jaguars that I got from Grokefish some weeks back make a noise something like the vibration in my mobile phone laying on a table. The first several times, I thought it WAS my mobile phone, only to realize it wasn't.

--
Mats

[andywoolloo]

really, Mats? cool.

[GoldenFeather]

Ah! way cool... I bet if you were in the water you'd feel it, in fact touching the glass you might feel it if you heard it that well. What a gift to receive... Has he continued or was he maybe just meeting others? Sweetest looking things... ahh...some.

GF

PS:
I'd read someplace early online doing this that if you pick them up they squeak because they're frightened. Then advised readers not to scare them too much. More misinformation?

[GoldenFeather]

<SNIP>!!!
..."didn't say "squeak" though. Is this the fin they speak of and would those ridges be how they produce the sound when they ruent types she was quite attached to. The little boy said he thought they were hungry so shared his iced tea with them...argh"

GF

WHAT the... heck did I do. I have no clue how I did that and it's too late to edit. I'm sorry everyone. I need to use the "Preview" more.

RE: The "Catfish communication"... carried on by Mats in a wonderful experience above with his special Grokefish.

---

The other was from a conversation I had with a nurse in triage the other day when I had to visit. She'd said she had had five different fish species in a wonderful tank she was much in love with. We began talking of fish because I asked her for a couple test tubes which she gladly gave . She evidently had left her little boy with a babysitter. Returned home to a dark tank and all of her fish were floating. .the rest is above... his iced tea


GF

[MatsP]

Mine (remember, these are NOT Synos) do it when they are "scared" or "threatened", yes. Typically when the L128 is trying to get into the favourite hiding space of one of them.

And would you think it was fun if I scared you because you make a funny sound when you get scared? Clearly, we shouldn't try to scare our synos into making noises as a "party trick", which is what I think the information was referring to (I don't KNOW what the thoughts where of the author, of course).

--
Mats

[GoldenFeather]

Mine (remember, these are NOT Synos) do it when they are "scared" or "threatened", yes. Typically when the L128 is trying to get into the favourite hiding space of one of them.

And would you think it was fun if I scared you because you make a funny sound when you get scared? Clearly, we shouldn't try to scare our synos into making noises as a "party trick", which is what I think the information was referring to (I don't KNOW what the thoughts where of the author, of course).

--
Mats

I agree with you 110%...Sadly the author clearly implied one should just "try it out" is how I read it. It encouraged. Like and worse (ahh so much worse) daily, is done and without number to... animals, insects, birds, fish... basically anything with "life". And "that" often the cost.
***

OMG Mats!!! the L128 is Beautiful... Is your L128 blue? Can you share some photos? I cant get over how I'm thrown head-over-heals every time I look at a new catfish??

You share that she/he, your L128 (((((sounds))))) out when feeling displaced... a clear example of their "distress" signal/communication. Does this mean that your Grokefish was feeling an insecurity being newly introduced to the tank? Or was that one a different type of communique? And do all catfish communicate audibly?
***

I've always loved looking at fish, skin diving, streams, tide pools, aquariums... We have an extreme giant tank (marine) on Maui at the Ocean Center . It has _everything_ there is in our island (specific) ocean has in it, including a Tiger Shark at least 5'. I've sat down there for hours in front of it – just swimming all over it with them in my mind. But these catfish are really special and so fantastically diverse!

Thanksxgoogolxplex,

GF

[GoldenFeather]

I want to bring up the "planeria" worm again. I've read repeatedly that the worm is harmless to the fish. And even some here had them and been able to rid their tanks of them with some simple steps. But I have some questions...

First, they have to come from someplace. If it's food that causes them to pop into existence, what food. They must be from some dormant larvae? What food would they be in? My guess is "frozen bloodworm". Both Mats and Andy have had it... I know Andy includes "frozen bloodworms" as treats or every few days. Mats, do you feed these as well? I hadn't fed him any of the "frozen brine-shrimp" (not those). In the 10G I kept a close watch on the bloodworms, food in general and made sure to get all of them out of the tank before ending the night. Except those that went up the filter intake tube. And I think I shared with you that I've been spoon/net feeding Nui due to his shy behavior being so bad it's kept him from eating. Or venturing further than his little make-shift cave. I'd done the same in the 10G in the beginning with him. He was just raised on goldfish pellets ONLY! I had to coax him to it. We've repeated that here except when I released the bloodworms I let them go for awhile to help get him to go looking for them. (hasn't worked yet). And that release ='d planeria perhaps. If Mats uses them too (frozen bloodworm) it may be there? There has to be larvae someplace?

Second, I don't know that they are completely harmless. Li'i had some symptoms that make me think I'm write. Observing her I notice she gives her head a little shake now and then. Reminds me of a cat or dog when they've got something in their ear(s) like mites. I'm posting the photo I caught below even though its blurry. I took a picture of the worm on Nui's fin. But when I first saw it, it was wiggling in place and moving back and forth at Nui's gills (left). He was trying to get in. When I tripped the shutter it had moved and shows up as a white streak on top of his fin. He was moving back towards his gills. This little cave/bridge thing he now hangs under, has a good current through it. It also has an airstone... Nui wants loves bubbles. (used to be for oxygen in the 10G and now he just likes the feel of them on his body ( I think)). So the current and bubbles would not allow a tiny worm like that to remain in the area. It had to be fighting just to remain there and then to position itself next to his head, a feat. I'm positive this was its' agenda.

Poor Li'i, actually slept in the little flower pot (upside down with small hole poked through) where these things came from and resided evidently. It was full of waste and food. I hadn't moved it for four days wanting to let her settle to it. Anyway, with the holes in her head, she had no chance of avoiding those things accessing her gills. None. If they did. Does this make sense or do you think I'm losing my cookies.

Here's the blur worm:

Planeria worm trying to get into Nui's gills

,,.
I caught three more today cleaning the gravel and under objects. Just a friendly "FYI" I've found I can get them out in the open to net them (slowly) if I fan areas with my four fingers held together to stir things up well. Works great. They get caught up in the whirl and are out in the water instead of down below in the waste ares.

My heartfelt thanks Everyone for bearing with me...truly,

GF

[MatsP]

The planaria probably comes from plants, gravel and fish - I don't know exactly. I doubt it's any particular fish-food that causes this. The worms themselves aren't a problem - they are just a sign that there is leftover food (or other edible stuff) in the tank.

--
Mats

[GoldenFeather]

The planaria probably comes from plants, gravel and fish - I don't know exactly. I doubt it's any particular fish-food that causes this. The worms themselves aren't a problem - they are just a sign that there is leftover food (or other edible stuff) in the tank.

--
Mats

Okay, got it. As long as they're not in any sort of risk from them. I can rest now. I re-read your post and realize I'd read it wrong. Oho, the L128 is the cultprit! Then what are the fish you are speak of, not the above, not Syno's??? You make us wonder ... "Mine"...? what.

Please,
GF

[MatsP]

The fish I'm talking of is a group of three

Liosomadoras morrowi

that I got from the forum member "Grokefish", as he was reducing his stocking. And it's not a question of "culprit" vs "innocent" - they are just both liking the same cave - there's plenty of other caves to go around, so they should have to quarrel over them, but they do...

--
Mats

[GoldenFeather]

The fish I'm talking of is a group of three Liosomadoras morrowi[/clog] that I got from the forum member "Grokefish", as he was reducing his stocking. And it's not a question of "culprit" vs "innocent" - they are just both liking the same cave - there's plenty of other caves to go around, so they should have to quarrel over them, but they do...

--
Mats

Morning,

Thank you for letting me know... about the Liosomadoras morrowi. I was imagining, even though you said "not Syno" something like perhaps. The photo you shared made me think "cousin". Not... I read the Cat-eLog and looked at other photos. What a beautifully ancient looking fish. Well, I've had my first introduction to predatory catfish. Googols... Mats.

This all raises more questions for me. Everything does and I do spend time reading but don't always find the little details I'm wondering about right away and may never. And I remain constantly thankful for being welcomed to ask them here. If, I go beyond some yet to be established limit for them, please let me know. I don't want to wear out my welcome...

Since my experience is all based on Nui's teachings... your Liosomadoras morrowi are attached to their own selected dwelling cave. And even though you L128 was venturing inside of theirs, does it also have its own selected cave? Which makes me want to know if "ALL" catfish maintain a territorial boundary which they seem to set by a cave - or hiding place/bridge in my Nui's case (and previously a rock). Nui's extends beyond both ends of the hiding area to its surround space for maybe around 7" or 17.78 cm.

Also, we've spoken of this before regarding Synos in the thread and their need to keep their environment maintained ie: 'sand color changes' with Andy's 5 Loves... and the '2 objects' in Nui's 10 gallon, etc. Now I'd like to know if your Liosomadoras morrowi are also affected in the same way by their environment... or changes you might make to it.

Thanks again and Happy Monday everyone..
GF

[GoldenFeather]

Hi Everyone...

I have to go to the other side of the island soon... and while there will pick up the Silicate Sand!!! Yeah!!! I'm just JAZZ'D about it.

This post tho' is a response to Naturalart's offer to help sex Nui (did I say that right?) if I were to be able to provide a good photo of his belly side. I've been trying since, when I can, when he's out. But going through my iPhoto file (Nui & Li'i's file) I found one I'd taken of him while he was enjoying his midnight swim in the 5" water in between his water change? Recall that...? It was a way for him to enjoy life a little each night. Anyway I got this great shot, at least I think it is, of his belly up to the water. You can barely see the area needed but maybe with an experienced eye it will be obvious. Hope it helps you do this Natural... if not, I'll just keep trying.

Here it is... Nui's beautiful belly.

Nui's Midnight Swim

Googolplex, GF

[GoldenFeather]

Bristle-Nosed Catfish
Ancistrus cf. temminckii was first found on O`ahu in 1985. Species in the genus Ancistrus are distinctive because of their prominent snout tentacles occurring in both sexes, with the tentacles having the greatest development in breeding males. The largest Ancistrus cf. temminckii specimen collected in Manoa Stream was 78 mm.

This species appears to preferentially select high velocity riffle and run habitats, and is less common in pool habitats. In Manoa Stream, bristle-nosed catfish densities are high and may also be in part contributing to the near absence of the native goby Awaous guamensis.
###

Hi Again All,

I found this on a Biological Survey Report conducted by the Bishop Museum last decade (2004-2009). They didn't complete it, as there's also a Cory here. But this is what they have on catfish in this report. At the top of the page they have "BAD GUY" in red bold letters. Our Ancistrus was on the "invasive species" list.... which is scary because at times they decide to eradicate something on the list. And that's necessary too, but now my heart will break... and I'll have to protest..gadz.

But on their behalf we do have more endangered species "loss" than any other place in the world. Something like per number per square mile. I'm not sure what that means but do realize there's good reason. Well, I'll stop there as there's good positions on both sides of that longstanding controversy here.

Have a good day..
GF