Attempts to breed L14

[Benjamin Goh]

Hi all, as stated on this site, the L14 has never been bred before in captivity. however, heard whispers from my local LFS in singapore that some malaysian farms has successfully bred them, however, the techniques used will probably never be let known to us and will stay as a trade secret for sometime. so i got questions for the experts here. what size should their breeding caves be? i got a german-made cave which dimensions are 9"X3"X3", L x W x D. my plecs will be in seperately by the end of this coming week, no worries about being from the same spawn. three pieces in all. based on my limited experience and references to this site, i have identified a pair at least, have not seen the final piece yet. really good price for them, 3 pieces of over 11" costing me about 360SGD in all. any advices for me as i embark on this experiment?

[CanadaPleco]

I've been working with a pair for about a year no and no success so far. Think my cave is to big, the fish are huge, male is 12-13" female slightly smaller.

[Cristoffer Forssander]

My pair has a cave with dimension: 45*12*10 cm.
Last year, there was breeding attempt, during a big waterchange, but nothing more.
Males can be very agressive towards females.

During the breeding attemt, the male was biting the female over the back, forcing her into the cave.

At the moment, I wait for the feamle to get heavy gravid befor potting a cave into the tank again.

Any other as experiences?

Cristoffer

[Mod edit: fix a few "Swedish spelling" mistakes... Hope you don't mind, Cristoffer --Mats]

[Lloydy]

Hi Cristoffer, how do you reduce aggression between your L14s when they get bigger?

[Benjamin Goh]

Ahh. I'm getting a 9" female. Think it's sexually mature? Im hoping since its smaller in size, the male can get her into the cave easier.

[MatsP]

the male can get her into the cave easier.

That may or may not be a benefit, you know... I'm not saying don't do that, I'm just not entirely sure smaller "and more complying" is necessarily better.

--
Mats

[Benjamin Goh]

Haha it's just a thought. I mean since these fishes are believed to do the trapping method whereby the males trap the female into the cave, males should be larger to do the job efficiently right? I'm guessing it though. It's all up for discussion since there isn't much references to breed these fishes.

[MatsP]

Well, if the female is "willin", a smaller male can certainly do the job. My breeding pair of Ancistrus consists of a large female and a smaller male - when they bred the first time, the male was about 2.5"/6cm and the female 3-3.5/8-9cm.

But I have also seen the damage done by males trapping an unwilling female.

So, I'm not sure smaller female is better.

--
Mats

[Benjamin Goh]

ahh you got a point. i'll just let nature take its course then. 1 large female, 1 small female and a male to go along, will see how it goes. any more good advice you can give me?

[MatsP]

Nice clean water, cool/soft water changes, and good food, and "benign neglect". The more you "mess" with the fish, the more likely it is that they are not going to breed. But of course, if nothing happens for a couple of years, you probably should change something. But trying different thing every two weeks is probably wrong!

--
Mats

[Benjamin Goh]

When it's in the shop.


12" male in my tank now


My collection is done. 1m2f. Hopefully will see some wrigglers in time to come. All eating well!

[Benjamin Goh]

My new catch on a sidenote!
Panaque Titan (L418, Peru Green)

[Benjamin Goh]

[exasperatus2002]

Something I've taken from reading about other pleco's breeding, is that there should be a strong current near the cave & that the cave should be just big enough for the pair but small enough for him to block the entrance to keep her in.

[Benjamin Goh]

What cave size would you recommend? Haven found the right cave to start this breeding project

[Cristoffer Forssander]

I will try to make a special breeding set up today for my pair.
I will use a 300 + liter aquarium (perhaps a bit small).

No gravel, 24 000/ hour current, big size caves, bog wood and rocks...

I will get back, later today, with info and images.

Cheers

[Cristoffer Forssander]

Hello again!

Aquarium for breeding. Bottom, left. The murky one


Close up (sorry for the poor quality)


Cave: "Nature cave" 10 cm wide, 8 cm high and 45 cm long.


The pair


Male


Female



For the moment. I use a streamer pump that gives 10 500 liters/h.
A week from mow, I will turn another two streamer pumps at 12 5000/ liters/h each.

I have a temp at 26 degrees and will rise the temp to 29 degrees of nothings happens before this.

My pH is 6,3 and conductivity is 200 uSm

Any suggestions. I was recomended the high waterflow from Janne Ekström and I will try he´s recomendations.

Cheers.
Cristoffer

[MatsP]

That's 200us/cm? or 200us/m (which is 200us/100cm => 2us/cm, or about 1ppm TDS)

--
Mats

[Cristoffer Forssander]

Oh, sorry.
200 uS/cm of course!

Cristoffer

[Lloydy]

24000 lph in a 300l tank. Wow that's a massive turnover! Is that correct?

[OlePaulsen]

Crossing fingers for both projects!
Would be amazing if they breed!

[MatsP]

It does sound like quite a lot - 80 times turnover. I have run 20 times turnover...

--
Mats

[Benjamin Goh]

24000 through to the filtration? Or just powerhead creating currents within the tank?

May I ask what filtration you're on?

Last thing, the largest cave I can make locally is only 12", doubt it would work. Any inputs?

[Benjamin Goh]

My L14s do look different from yours. All three have significantly flat heads as compared to the sharper head shape of yours. Any one with an explanation? Maybe collected at different points of the river?

[Cristoffer Forssander]

Yes, three pumps: One that runs 10 500/h. Two that runs 12 500/h.

35 500 lph + central filtration and air filtration.
15% water change each day.

Just Streamer pumps (powerheads), Coralia 7 and 8 I think it is. To turn the water.

Then I have central filtration, mecanic filtration. A total volyme of 280 liters of filter. (for 2500 liters of water).
Don't know exactly how much it is but perhaps 1000/liters/h. And there is a air filter in each aquarium, biological (don't know how much this is).

I would have a total turn over at around 120. I'll try to see how they reacts...

The more flat head of mine is the male, the narrower is female.

The cave is big enough for the male, but perhaps its a bit too big. I'm thinking on andding a smaller cave to and see what he whants to have.

[Cristoffer Forssander]

I have spawn of L240 in the aquarium next to this. THery chare the same water via the central filtration - I hope the L14 will rect to the hormones in the water from the L240s.

I sometimes use ancistrus to trigger more difficult plecos...


Cheers

[Janne]

Using Coralia for current 10-12.000 L/h is like to use a powerhead of 2-3000 L/h, they just move around the water a little with some waves on the surface. 35.000L/h sounds much but everything depends on what type of pumps in use, if this volume would be created by one large pond pump the water would blow out from the aquarium
I think you should increase the temp. to 29-30C and not let them go in such low temp. as 26C, feed them more because the female is not ready yet for breeding.

Janne

[Benjamin Goh]

which type do you use to create the current?
this

or


have yours tried to spawn before? my male never tried bothering the females at all, and the females always battle it out during feeding time.

[MatsP]

Christoffer posted that he's using a Koralia 7 or 8.
So like the first one in your picture - here's a link to the Koralia 8 pump:
http://www.charterhouse-aquatics.co.uk/ ... -2720.html

And what I think Janne is saying is that since Koralia pumps are "low pressure", the actual flow of the pump itself is higher, but it's also not as "concentrated" as a the second type of pump, so you need more volume per hour from this sort of pump - certainly my 1000 lph Eheim pump makes more water movement in a 400 liter tank than a 1600 lph Koralia pump does in a 270 liter tank, if that makes sense.

--
Mats

[Benjamin Goh]

Ahh, my tank has really little flow, shall add alittle to it. Any thoughts about whether a flat head would confirm that its a male? I got piece with flat head, but it has been vented at the shop before I brought it home, I sexed it wrongly?