Irresponsible shops...

[fishiechris]

I was in dobbies in Milton Keynes on weekend. I like it there to a degree... They get the odd oddball in but most if all, they don't realise and mislabel it! Had a few cheeky buys from the so far!
They have a beautiful mbu puffer in, the best I've seen and at £80 for a 9" fish I'm tempted.
Yet, in the other bow fronted tank they have a tiger shovelnose at 3/4" for ~£23. The fun begins when I mention they have crossed out the max size with pen! U can see it said 12". So are they irresponsible for hiding "max length" or educating on enquiries? Bearing in mind the mbu has potential for 30", should these fish be in garden centres or specialist dealers that have more of a clue? Your thoughts please...

[MatsP]

Unfortunately, I think this is more common than "true" fish-shops being dishonest. However, I'm not sure if the crossed out 12" is crossed out because they want to hide it, or because it's less than a third or so of it's ultimate size - so perhaps the crossing out is actually to "correct" the incorrect size.

I have strong opinion on selling fish that grow large. I don't think fish with a max size over about 18" max length should be available in shops - exception might be true specilized shops. Anyone who has the ability, financially and practically, to look after fish bigger than this would also be capable of ordering fish on special order, and there should be no reason for any shop to carry these fish in stock.

--
Mats

[Viktor Jarikov]

Hi Chris, e.g., I have a 2-2.5' TSN and the Indian Kitty Keeper Headbanger's TSN is 3-3.5' right now, so 12" was a mistake.

I am with Mats with a small tack-on that the free market, that Mats likes to alude to too, is what it is - where there is demand, there will be an offer. IMO, without govermental/global regulations, this practice that results in an inhumane treatment of fish stuffed in too small a tanks will go on and on. But 90% or maybe 99% of them probably die young, almost thankfully in these cases, - keeping fish is a far finer and more involved hobby than keeping a dog or a cat. Most, sadly, don't know that when they get tanks. And the issues, work, expense, etc. scale up exponentially with the max size of the fish.

This topic you are starting has been pretty beat up around here. Not trying to discourage you, just trying to be helpful. Perhaps, try a search function or someone who is highly active in this topic may kindly provide a few links.

[MatsP]

There are plenty of things that are legal to trade in, but you have to special order, because the companies selling them don't want to carry stock - or you have to go to very specialized shops for it. Say you want a Canon 300/2.8L telephoto lens - can you just walk into your nearest shop to get one? No, probably not. Specialist place like B&H (in your state, I believe they are still on West 17th Street on Manhattan) will probably have one or two in stock. Sure, the reason you can't just get it in any shop is that it's about two months salary on above average paying job. But something more affordable, but still unusual - say a Canon EF 45mm T/S lens, is yet again not available in shops even in big cities - you have to wait for it to arrive from some central location.

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples of "legal to buy, but not available in most shops", even at lower prices.

Bear in mind that fish at 18" needs a 6' x 3' tank base, which isn't something you just go to Walmart to pick up. So why should you be able to pick up the fish to go in the tank from Walmart or something equally accessible.

--
Mats

[Viktor Jarikov]

Mats, I must submit you know better on the topic and already are going deeper than I know. I just think there are other reasons that I don't know why it works with cameras and does not work with fish. Maybe because the owners' care for the lifetime of photocameras is a relative, predictable constant while fish care is known only by educated few... they think they are buying an entertaiment but instead get a liability... I don't know. Cost matters too. A lot. People who buy expensive cameras or fish usually know what they are doing, like you said above. With cheap stuff, there is more, far more of these to buy and no time/drive to research and teach themselves about this purchases. Anyway, I should shut up.

[MatsP]

Absolutely agree. And the reason that small shovelnoses are cheap is because they sell lots of them to ignorant people who buy them, and then in short order kill them, and buy something else instead.

In this country, it's very rare to see dyed fish in the shops, because shops with "honor" do not sell dyed fish. The big franchise chain of Maidenhead Aquatics do not, in general, carry fish that grow huge - I have seen SOME fish that I think don't belong there, but in general they do not stock huge catfish etc. They even make this clear with signs in the shop.

If it's seen as "not politically correct" to sell fish that outgrows 99.9% of peoples tanks, then shops won't have these in stock.

--
Mats

[Marc van Arc]

If it's seen as "not politically correct" to sell fish that outgrows 99.9% of peoples tanks, then shops won't carry those products.

That's an impressive statement, but I bet you every shop in the UK offers

Pangasianodon hypophthalmus

and

Pterygoplichthys

spp.

Also, being an amateur and not a wholesaler, I strongly object to the use of the word "products" wrt fishes.

[MatsP]

Marc,

I edited the "products" part.

And MA branches certainly do NOT carry Pangasiids. They usually have a few large Pterygoplichthys "returns", and at least once they've had smaller ones in one of my regular MA branches, when I asked about them, they explained it was a "wholesaler mixup". (The MA @ Oxford/Wheatley had

Pangasianodon hypophthalmus

in a sump tank, but they were 12-14", and "returned" from a customer that had kept them for a few years and felt they were too large for their 4ft tank). I'm not saying there aren't any MA branches that carry large fish, but certainly it's not something they do regularly.

--
Mats

[Marc van Arc]

I'm not saying there aren't any MA branches that carry large fish, but certainly it's not something they do regularly

In that case Dutch shops still have a lot to learn in this respect.

[Jools]

That's an impressive statement, but I bet you every shop in the UK offers

Pangasianodon hypophthalmus

and

Pterygoplichthys

spp.

Actually, MA have a policy of not buying

Pangasius

and that's over 100 shops - there is even one in Scotland. A progressive move. Also, our mutual acquaintance Hugh doesn't sell them. I've not seen any at a few chain shops I've been too. I think the fact you can buy them in Tesco to eat and they have had a fair bit of TV coverage here to (being sold by unscrupulous fish and chip shops) helped.

Pterygoplichthys

being smaller and comparably less active / self damaging has some role maybe, and it's good to see more and more stores selling

Ancistrus

. Call me optimistic, but I think the internet has helped a lot with this.

The one that more "bothers" me are members of Ariidae - they're all WC.

Jools

[MatsP]

I would like to point out that there are other shops here in this country that do NOT follow this example.

But I still think that it's entirely possible to make it unacceptable for shops to stock fish that are "tank-busters".

--
Mats

[Jools]

But I still think that it's entirely possible to make it unacceptable for shops to stock fish that are "tank-busters".

Yup, for me one of the most important things is to keep common names on this site in line with the chain shops. It's my view this can be achieved more easily, with less risk and more positively by information rather than legislation. I'm not a fan of the latter.

Jools

[Carp37]

When I was a teenager in the 80s, just about every large aquatic shop I visited had Pangasius for sale- now it seems to be a rarity in my area (South Yorkshire). Arowana and pacu are also much less commonly for sale than they used to be. Tiger and lima shovelnoses, and giraffe cats still seem to be pretty commonly for sale at small sizes though.

[macvsog23]

One point on MA they are about the only LFS that will refuse to sell to any one who has not got a filter.
Also the ask the right questions before selling.
In all I think a posertive company and One I will buy from with no problem.
They are a starnge setup as the managment are all ex shop floor people.

Regards Bob

[Jools]

It's a really tricky one that, having worked in a store (did you too Bob?), it's very difficult to suss out if the buyer knows what they're doing with a fish. My pet peeve was some guy who'd been keeping fish for a year (or so) bringing his newbie pal along and telling him all the wrong things.

Anyway, it's a lot better than it was, that's for sure.

Jools

[Barbie]

As the local LFS owner that has enraged people when I refuse to order red tail cats and reef sharks and other fish that have no business in aquariums, I love to see these threads ;). It won't stop one single person intent on buying them from finding one, but maybe it will give a few people the opportunity to snap their head loose from where ever it got lodged before they torture the poor things. That's my own personal pipe dream. Now, if only my persistent ethics paid more, hehe.

Barbie

[macvsog23]

As the local LFS owner that has enraged people when I refuse to order red tail cats and reef sharks and other fish that have no business in aquariums, I love to see these threads ;). It won't stop one single person intent on buying them from finding one, but maybe it will give a few people the opportunity to snap their head loose from where ever it got lodged before they torture the poor things. That's my own personal pipe dream. Now, if only my persistent ethics paid more, hehe.

Barbie

Fantastic a person with guts.
To tell a numpty that wants “A BIG FISH" to go away when it cost you money is showing guts.

On this subject

I agree people will buy big fish and try to keep them. If the fish trade continues to be seen as it is in the UK as "Pets" it will happen again and again.
Dog’s cat’s mice turtles all brought on impulse with no understanding of the natural habitat and life of the animal,
My self I would have a form of test question licence call it what you want before buying any vertebrate.
Look at the dog in its natural state this animal will never be alone from birth to death it will always be part of a pack reproducing, killing, eating and dieing within the packs rules and protection. We take a singular puppy and keep it outside of the natural environment, with us as the pack and then we go to work or to the pub and just walk out on it?
Then when it jumps all over us with sear delight at being allowed to become part of the pack again we get upset because it may damage our cloths?

People can say the same with fish taken from the natural environment and subjected to unnatural conditions. I hope that most fish keepers try to create a natural habitat for the fish they keep I know I do.

In the UK we have the Animal Welfare Act 2006 (in force from April 2007)
http://www.alternativevet.org/animal_welfare_act.htm
For me it pretty well brings an end to big fish ECT. Sadly because the general public care more for a dog than a fish it is not implemented and when it is implemented regards fish the press mock it.
Well I have rambled on thanks for listening.

[macvsog23]

It's a really tricky one that, having worked in a store (did you too Bob?), it's very difficult to suss out if the buyer knows what they're doing with a fish. My pet peeve was some guy who'd been keeping fish for a year (or so) bringing his newbie pal along and telling him all the wrong things.

Anyway, it's a lot better than it was, that's for sure.

Jools

Jools I work on a Sunday at a LFS
I have found many ways to check what knowledge a person has.
To be honest a few words can tell if that person is a fish keeper or just wants a fish,
The "Experienced numpty" is also my pet hate they get so upset if you ask them any questions that dot have the answer "Its a nice fish and its a pretty shape" or some banal clap along that line.
I ask a few questions to every one who buys a fish.
How long has the tank been running?
How many fish do you have in your tank?
How often do you do your weekly 10% water change?
From these questions I get a good idea of what they are capable of keeping.

I have the proud boast of never having sold a fish that has come back in a bag with the words "this fish you sold me died"
I also delight in the title of senior sales prevention office

Regards Bob

[Jools]

I agree Bob, it's tricky though when there are three times as many customers in the shop than staff, someone's brought in an Oscar in a bucket to get the water tested, you're trying to prise an anenome off something it is rather attached to and some guy wants a small fortune for his F1000 1" kribs. By that I mean sometimes you don't have time to get underneath the "can I help" while not appearing aloof.

So, I think the real skill is in getting the guy that was going to buy something dumb to buy something less dumb, from a business perspective, that's about customer retention. It's my belief in the long run that makes a business thrive.

Jools

[MatsP]

So, I think the real skill is in getting the guy that was going to buy something dumb to buy something less dumb, from a business perspective, that's about customer retention. It's my belief in the long run that makes a business thrive.

Indeed - customers who have very poor success in their first ventures into aquaristics do not end up long term customers. And one way to avoid the customer buying dump things is to not stock really dumb thing in the first place! ;)

And, yes, I've been in shops where the number of customers by far outnumber the staff, and sometimes it can be testing the patience of both customers and staff...

--
Mats

[macvsog23]

I have found a short burst from my trusted MAC10 will get the people to pay attention!
Smileys not working folks

[nicofish]

speaking of which im going to a store like that today.
they are the only ones that get anything worth looking at.
they tried to sell me a pim pictus for 20 dollars claiming it was RTC. pictus normally cost 8 bucks around here

some of the fish are in terrible shape mostly just the mollies and guppies they keep the rest of their fish somewhat decent.

I doubt im going to buy anything but sometimes it just fun to look

[nicofish]

by far the best mistake was red belly pacu being sold as piranha.

I feel bad for the guy who buys one of those..

[Viktor Jarikov]

Are you sure? They should know pirahna cannot be sold legally anywhere in the USA.

[nicofish]

lol yes I know but those "Red pacu" had teeth

and then there was another tank that actually had piranha labeled as piranha

the shop is not entirely "legal" lol

I didnt go I decided against it seeing as I dont have a quarantine tank or money so if there was something cool in my size range I probably would have cried.

so I whent sledding instead

[Viktor Jarikov]

Pacu is from piranha family.

Perhaps, my English needs work but

Nicofish: "by far the best mistake was red belly pacu being sold as piranha."

to me means that instead of a piranha, the RBP was being sold. That's why my question.

But now, I understand your second sentence better!

Nicofish:"I feel bad for the guy who buys one of those.."

[Jools]

So, in a refreshing LFS(ish) visit today I buy four horse face loaches. The first thing the guy asks me is do I know what size they get to. Now, not being recognised, here's where I have an opportunity to be a real idiot. They were labelled and the TL said 20cm - I could have easily read that back to him. Or some other remark. But I felt I should dutifully explain they were going into a 6' tank with barbs and that was cool. Once I explained they had sand to hide in he was really quite onside. That was good. I was a bit taken aback by the 20 or so Mbu puffers for sale mind you, but I saw no Pangasius!

Then I overhear a customer being offered (by the other memeber of staff) to write down the name of fish being bought so they don't forget / know for reference. The customer (a man buying for his present son) says, "don't bother, he'll lose it and if they die we'll come back here anyway". Classy.

I brings me back to my general view that bad shops exists because bad customers exist. It's just business. Hats off to those that try to do the right thing, you can't win 'em all.

Jools

[macvsog23]

"if they die we'll come back here anyway"

That statement would get the numpty ejected from my shop and with no fish.
I do not sell to have it killed.

This is not one of my jokes any one who makes a statement like that in my ear shoot is not fit in law or a humane society to have care of fish.

It is this only fish and so cheap I will just buy a new one that is causing the problems.

[Viktor Jarikov]

I brings me back to my general view that bad shops exists because bad customers exist.

my 2 cents: While this interpretation appears viable, it is not the only one. The father may simply not believe in his young sons' abilities or not quite yet. This might have been but a pessimistic remark with no depth to it and a 50/50 chance of being wrong. We all started somewhere, esp. when we were very young. I still kill fish every now and then. It is (1) the intentional killing or (2) obvious, blatant, cold negligence for the well-being of an animal that may be condonable. A sincere but likely-to-fail or may-fail effort cannot be condonable. In the case cited, it is not clear which one it'd be.

[macvsog23]

I brings me back to my general view that bad shops exists because bad customers exist.

my 2 cents: While this interpretation appears viable, it is not the only one. The father may simply not believe in his young sons' abilities or not quite yet. This might have been but a pessimistic remark with no depth to it and a 50/50 chance of being wrong. We all started somewhere, esp. when we were very young. I still kill fish every now and then. It is (1) the intentional killing or (2) obvious, blatant, cold negligence for the well-being of an animal that may be condonable. A sincere but likely-to-fail or may-fail effort cannot be condonable. In the case cited, it is not clear which one it'd be.

I agree we all have deaths with our fish it is not the death that winds me up it is the total inability to understand that this animals death is avoidable and the attitude that it has no worth outside of a monetary value.
It is some thing I find disgusting.
It is all well and good to say education will change this. It will not, what will, is prosecutions for abuse and punishment.
Sadly we have to understand that some people see fish as just visual entertainment and of no more value than a toy.

The entire industry is geared this way.
Ask any person how cares and works in a LFS how many people they serve who care?
I do not mean people who work in a LFS like pier just an average "pet shop"
Yesterday I dealt with over 20 people who asked to buy fish. I “Educated “ 6 and refused to sell to 1, sold fish to 4, sold dry goods to 10 and gave up on the rest.
Only the 6 people were prepared to listed to what I said and look up on the internet information the rest were incapable of understanding the basics of fish keeping ie a tank must cycle you cant just pop fish in, cold water fish are different to tropical and why would you wish to put a newt in a tank with neon’s?
This is despite me giving them a small booklet I make up with lots of information and help in it; I normally find this discarded by the exit door.
One asked to buy 2 x baby Discus and 2 x Rift valley fish and also a small Pim that is possible

Pimelodus blochii

. When informed they came from different river systems and needed an understanding of fish keeping and water quality his reply was “But I need to put some nice fish in my tank because it looks dull” his tank was a 24” x 12” x 15” stuffed full of guppy’s and covered in algae due to never having a water change, he brought a Pleco once to clean it but it “died on him” so plecos are crap he said.
Try being calm and helpful when faced with that?