L14 - At what size can they be sexed?

[Lloydy]

Hi everyone,

I have been keeping L14's for a while and currently have 4 of them in my main tank. I have had them between 1-2yrs and most were bought while still very small.

I reckon they are between 4.5-6" at the moment and I was wondering at what size I can start to work out whether they are male or female.

If people think they can be sexed at this size then I will try to catch them and take a few photo's. If not I will leave them in peace for a few months. Or should that be years?

[MatsP]

I suspect they are on the small side. Getting a photo from above would clearly tell us, tho'.

--
Mats

[dconnors]

I would think that if they were well fed and not too skinny that they should be sexable. The only way at this size however, would probably be to vent them, as I don't think at that size they would be showing noticeable outward signs of sexual differences. They are definitely large enough to see the vents though. Good luck!

[Benjamin Goh]

I would think that if they were well fed and not too skinny that they should be sexable. The only way at this size however, would probably be to vent them, as I don't think at that size they would be showing noticeable outward signs of sexual differences. They are definitely large enough to see the vents though. Good luck!

sorry to dig this up. able to explain what it means to see throught the vent? has anyone successful bred this L-number? im attempting to, with a trio.

[MatsP]

I'm not aware of anyone breeding these (or any other Scobinancistrus) in aquaria. It is highly likely in part due to the fact that they grow large, and most people don't have enough space to keep a group of them, large enough caves for them to breed in.

Venting means looking at the "bits" around the anus where the female fish expells the eggs and the male ejects the sperm (or milt). Pointy bit means male, rounded is female.

--
Mats

[Benjamin Goh]

I'm not aware of anyone breeding these (or any other Scobinancistrus) in aquaria. It is highly likely in part due to the fact that they grow large, and most people don't have enough space to keep a group of them, large enough caves for them to breed in.

Venting means looking at the "bits" around the anus where the female fish expells the eggs and the male ejects the sperm (or milt). Pointy bit means male, rounded is female.

--
Mats

Heard Malaysian farms had bred then successfully hence my optimism. What cave dimensions would you recommend?

[MatsP]

Cave size is really a case of "matching with the fish" - a rough guide is the fish length * 1.5-2, width width of fish (behind the head) + 1 pectoral fin length, and a bit higher than the height of the fish with the dorsal down. This is not a precise formula.

--
Mats

[macvsog23]

Hi

The amount of very young L014 being sold in the UK makes me think some one could be breeding them the means to get the eggs fertilized may not be natural.

[MatsP]

Taksan posted about large breeding projects in Asia. They are large "river-like pond" projects, with massive flow and huge volume of water.

But I also suspect small L14 are exported (despite being illegal) from Brazil, probably via Colombia or Peru.

--
Mats

[Benjamin Goh]

Yeah somehow they have to be bred cause there's simply way too much L14 in the market right now. For Singapore where the market for them is so small, I have alr seen considerable amount of them for sale. Hmm why would they have to smuggle them out? Are they banned for export in brazil?

[MatsP]

I do believe they are banned from export in Brazil, yes.

According to the list at the end of this document
http://www.ornamental-fish-int.org/file ... lation.pdf
none of the Scobinancistrus species are allowed to be exported. The way it works is that ONLY fish that is listed on the list in Table I is allowed to be listed.

--
Mats

[Benjamin Goh]

Female?

[Jools]

Taksan posted about large breeding projects in Asia. They are large "river-like pond" projects, with massive flow and huge volume of water.

Yes, he also said Panaque(Panaque) were being bred - I think it dangerous to repeat that without firmly presenting it as a quote? I have no evidence of Panaque or the river like projects, and neither do two of the leading exporters from the area or a leading German importer. However Scobinancistrus are bred and are on several lists, had a chat with Ingo about it too and he confirmed. The issue is that they are more expensive than WC, however if not WC available then, this is a less of an issue.

Sexing pic below (

L253

), the smaller female is 310mm SL. I agree about the size of the L014 mentioned here, to small to tell except possibly by venting.

Jools

[Benjamin Goh]

mines 10" now. is it still to small to be sexed?

[Janne]

I do believe they are banned from export in Brazil, yes.
According to the list at the end of this document
http://www.ornamental-fish-int.org/file ... lation.pdf
none of the Scobinancistrus species are allowed to be exported. The way it works is that ONLY fish that is listed on the list in Table I is allowed to be listed.

This is not correct, this list is old and not relevant. All known Scobinancistrus with L-numbers incl. L14 is allowed for export since 2008, before that the positive list looked a little like in the link to OFI even if some species are missing in their list for both allowed and protected species; looks like someone have rewrite the list's from IBAMA's homepage and missed some species instead to copy the whole list.

Anyway, the breeding season for L14 is now and started in late December beginning of January and Rio Xingu is flooded with babies. Each week from now on and a few months forward thousands of L14 in sizes from 4-5 cm will be exported around the world every week.

Janne

[dconnors]

Janne, I am just curious here, but will L14 be affected by the dam project @ Belo Monte? It seems that since these are allowed for export it would be wise to undertake these as a breeding project?

[Janne]

Scobinancistrus aureatus is widely spread in Rio Xingu, at least down to Sao Felix do Xingu and will not be affected as much like small local endemic species living in the big bend. It will be affected in some way but it's more difficult to foresee then it's with species you know only occur on a certain place. The population of Scobinancistrus pariolispos in Rio Tocantins and Araguaia is very low compared with other Scobinancistrus species in Rio Xingu and Rio Tapajos, maybe the Tucurui dam had some negative affect on that population; there was no real environmental study made before they built the Tucurui dam so it's impossible to know if the population was bigger before the dam or not.

Janne

[MatsP]

Janne, thanks for your clarification. Do you have a link to the current list of what is allowed to be exported? Clearly, google is not a good tool for finding it - as I believed I had found the correct list...

--
Mats

[Janne]

Here is the list of permitted species, this one will be exchanged against a new list published in February (maybe).

Janne