L091 Need Advice On Lesions

doctorzeb · Post by **doctorzeb** » 06 Oct 2003, 11:40

Woke up this morning and noticed these lesions on my new L091. The water parameters are fine. Low Nitrates/ nitrites. No ammonia, Ph 6.8, Temp 80.

He also has a whitish dot just above his mouth.

He also has sightly sunken eyes, that have a slight opacity to them.. this make me really worry!!!!

Any ideas

In despair

Rob

Post by **Barbie** » 06 Oct 2003, 18:37

Hi Rob,

I assume he's in a quarantine tank? You mention there are low nitrite levels in the tank, so I'd definitely do an immediate 30% water change. Nitrites are very toxic to your fish, just like ammonia is. After you to the water change, rinse out an existing filter's media in the tank, to help supplement the bacteria colonies in there.

With that said, any "sores" or lesions on your fish are probably going to need to be treated with an antibiotic, especially if its recently been stressed with shipping and such. I'd recommend a good broad spectrum antibiotic, or one for gram negative bacteria, depending on how your meds are labelled. Keep doing the 30% water changes every day while you're medicating the fish. I've never understood why the directions for the medications don't tell you that it keeps up your water quality, unless they're worried that most people are lazy enough they'd buy something that didn't sound like so much work. Who knows.

Hopefully this helps.

Barbie

doctorzeb · Post by **doctorzeb** » 06 Oct 2003, 19:38

Cheers Barbie

I've done a water change, but I'll have to wait till tomorrow to try and get an anti bacterial. As it stands his eyes are getting more sunken so I'm going to have to give him a treatment of Myxazin to try and get him through the night.

cheers
rob

Post by **Barbie** » 06 Oct 2003, 19:49

Antibiotic isn't antibacterial. What exactly is the active ingredient of Myxazin? That sounds like it might be antibiotic in nature. Antibacterial agents will reduce the amount of bacteria present in the water, but really don't do much for the fish in helping them recover.

Barbie

doctorzeb · Post by **doctorzeb** » 06 Oct 2003, 20:41

oops sorry Barbie, Meant to say antibiotic, fingures typing faster than my brain is thinking.

Here's the description for Myxazin.

Myxazin lowers the count of harmful bacteria in aquarium water, treating Fin Rot, Body Rot, Ulceers and other bacterial diseases. It will also control Pop-Eye Disease and Cloudy Eyes and Mouth Fungus.

Myxazin will not harm beneficial filtration bacteria.

I'm using it as a last ditch attempt as I have found it beneficail in the past for "keeping fish going". He has really went down hill in the space of around two hours. I'm hoping that if the lesions or ulcers are the primary problem, the Myxazin will at least slow the process down.

SH*T, I hate it when this happens! I always feel so Bl**dy useless!

Do you know what could cause the lesions, or could they just be a symptom of general ill health?

Hopefully

Rob

Post by **Barbie** » 06 Oct 2003, 21:13

To be honest Rob, I haven't had fish with lesions like you're talking about. I DID receive a pm hatemail about how I'm single handedly going to be responsible for creating teenage mutant ninja viruses with my advice to use antibiotics to treat him though. I personally use clean water, lots of water changes, salt, and increased temperatures to stimulate appetite with new plecos, and only treat them if something goes terribly wrong. In my opinion, that happened with your fish.

Antibiotics should ALWAYS be used for a complete cycle, as the directions state. If you don't, the antibiotics run the risk of causing a "resistant" form of the bacteria to be created. With that said, it only happens if the medicines aren't used properly, or noone would ever recover from pneumonia.

I'm sure the water changes I recommended would help the fish greatly, in and of themselves. I just like to cover my bases. That isn't a method that obviously everyone believes should be used, so hopefully they'll add their two cents here, rather than in my inbox

Barbie

doctorzeb · Post by **doctorzeb** » 06 Oct 2003, 22:04

Thanks Barbie

Your advice is really appreciated. Unfortunately it is quite difficult to get antibiotics for aquatic use over here(certainly from a vet) and I'm not sure what there is on the market, but I will be in first thing to find out.

I just hope he makes it through the night. I've aereated the tank a little more, and I guess I'll just have to keep my fingures crossed.

thanks again

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 06 Oct 2003, 22:17

Rob a few questions do the leisons look waxy or more of a hard appearance? how long have you had the fish and when did this become apparant, has it just appeared? if it did share a tank have you made sure non of your other species of fish in the tank are effected?

doctorzeb · Post by **doctorzeb** » 06 Oct 2003, 23:53

Hi Magnum4

the lesions look waxy, sort of like a mouth ulcer. i've only had him for about 10 days, although he had been in the shop for about 3 months. He is in a quarantine tank so nothing else in infected.

I didn't notice anything on him yesterday, but I suppose I could have missed it. He has deteriorated a great deal today, and even over the past few hours his eyes have become sunken. I'm really confused, because the water is good, and there seemed to be no prior symptoms, although come to think of it I did see a small white protrution from his ass!.

I just hope he's still there tomorrow.

Cheers for all the help, and here's hoping!!!!!!!!!!!!

rob

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 07 Oct 2003, 14:56

I think doctorzeb your best course of action for the moment is try and get it to eat if it's not already, water changes when necessary and move myxazin up to the higher every 12 hour dose, keep a close eye an the leisions and update us if any more become apparent.

doctorzeb · Post by **doctorzeb** » 07 Oct 2003, 15:52

Well, He's made it through the night, (which I didn't expect), another water changed planned for tonight, and I'll try and get him to eat. I've spoken to a vet, who just happens to know a fish vet specialist in the area. So I am in the process of trying to get hold of him.

Once again I think it's a case of keeping my fingures crossed and hoping for the best.

I just wish I knew what casued it.

Thank you all very much for the imput once again.

I'll keep you all posted

doctorzeb · Post by **doctorzeb** » 07 Oct 2003, 20:25

Well, It's still not looking good.

I spoke to the Fish Vet Guy, and like many of yourselves, he suggested a salt mix of 2 Tablespoons per gallon, added over a reasonable period of time.

Here are the pics, bearing in mind these are just over 24 hours from the previous

This lesion is about 1.5mm deep and has taken only 24hour to appear from nothing!

A lesion arounf the gill opening that was not there 5 hours ago

Discharge from the nasl vent thingy, and sunken opaque eyes

Disintegration of the dorsal fin, 24 hours!

Now I'm getting a bit upset, there is part of me that says knock it on the head, and another that says give it a chance.

On the plus side, the vet guy is back in the are tomorrow, so if he make it through the night, he's actually willing to come out to the house to help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's hoping!!

BK · Post by BK » 07 Oct 2003, 22:16

good luck with the fish, hope it pulls through okay.

S. Allen · Post by **S. Allen** » 07 Oct 2003, 23:26

man those are creepier looking than an STD... I hope he comes through, such a pretty fish.

And yeah, the decision for or against euthanasia's probably the most difficult one involved in pet keeping. put them down it ends pain, but you took their last chance. Keep them living and they may get better, but they also continue suffering. Unless your a $^&*#(ing jerk who says "Nah, don't treat her or put her down, she's got 6 months of work left in her."

doctorzeb · Post by **doctorzeb** » 07 Oct 2003, 23:55

And yeah, the decision for or against euthanasia's probably the most difficult one involved in pet keeping. put them down it ends pain, but you took their last chance. Keep them living and they may get better, but they also continue suffering

Hi scott ,I think you hit the nail on the head there

He's doing alot of moving about tonight, which does make me worry. I've kinda resigned myself to the fact that he'll probably be foating in the morning.

If not hopefully this fancy vet guy can breath some new life into him.

I think at this point I feel the end justifies the means. Ok so the use of broad range antibiotics and spectrum treatments can have adverse effects, but if it's either die in your sleep or wake up......as a hobyist, I know what my preferce would be.

Here's hoping.

rob

Plec0maniac · Post by **Plec0maniac** » 08 Oct 2003, 07:18

hi not being negative but thats kinda the same disease that hit my tank last month.. except that your plec doesnt have white patches on the body

doctorzeb · Post by **doctorzeb** » 08 Oct 2003, 10:36

Well, as hard as it is to believe, he is still hanging in there, and touch wood the rate of degredation on the ulcers and fins seems to have decreased.

I think I've really opened a can of worms here, even my wife is sitting next to me actually interested in what the forum is saying.
Next thing she'll be telling me it's ok to buy more fish and set up more tanks, wh-hey!

NOT! (ok thats my delightful wife speaking)

So it seems evident that there are many opinions on the use of broad range antibiotics for aquarium use. I understand the arguement against and correct me if we're wrong, but purelt focusing on the domestic aquarium. My fish gets cured, but in the process a bacteria has beomce reistent to the antibiotic used. This can lay dormant, until the fish is removed from the quarantine tank and introduced to other fish. Once this introduction takes place the "mutated bacteria" can then be spread throughout the tank and other tank / fish that comes in contact. i.e. through sale or passing on of fish.

SO, the primary problem is that this resistant bacteria is the resultant effect of in lamens terms," an antibiotic treatment cycle not being completed".

On the other side, quite simply, how can we learn if the practice is not carried out. I am about to fork out way more than the fish is worth (if you know what I mean), for a fish vet guy to come out and diagnose the fish. If he feels necessary, he will administer an appropriate antibiotic. Surely it is not in his best interst to promote the mis-use of anti-biotics. Which is why it is so difficult to get them for fish in this country. If I wanted to get antibiotic food for my fish, I would have to take him into the surgery(during which he would probably die anyway), and the vet may say, "hmmm...sorry I can't issue a treatment, because I don't recognise the symtoms, and cannot therefore make a diagnosis"

Basically, here in the UK there ARE controls in place, and if used responsibily the use can be justified. I am lucky in the sense that this specialist lives 40 miles away, and is probably more qualified than ourselves to decide on appropriate action.

The reasons for the strict controls are due to reasons stated by pturley,

Antibiotics that show a primary effectiveness against one type of bacteria (IE: Gram negative bacillus, and not coccus) can and do act as selective pressures in the Cocci-type bacteria (or spirochetes, or gram positive, or... ... OK, well you get my drift.). Then, given that bacterial conjugation (passing plasmid DNA between cells)of resistance factors is not a type specific activity and occurs between broadly differing strains and types of bacteria, YES, you are building a better bug by the use of antibiotics in aquarium fish.

Yet the means to cure the fish are created by people who ensure that there are regulatory restrictions, (even if not legislative), in place..

I therefore feel that this is justification, under the correct condtions......

Tell you what, this is getting interesting.

I just hope my L091 can sympathise with all of the theoretical bulsh*t that goes into trying to save his little wet life!

Where's Jerry Springer when you need him.

flyinmike · Post by **flyinmike** » 08 Oct 2003, 13:45

(In my experience and opinion only) In a well established tank there are many types of bacteria besides the beneficial ones that we encourage. These don't have any effect on a happy healthy fish but you take a pleco with some fin tears or a scrape from being netted, or just stressed from the move, and WHAM! I use Melafix whenever I get new fish to help carry them through the "adjustment" period. It seems to work well and any visual damage is usually healed within the recommended 7 day regime. I have only had to use it ince as a cure. My angels apparently got badly stressed when it took quite some time to net a small firemouth from their tank. Fin rot (bacterial infection) hit hard and fast. Two angels had their fins nearly gone the next day! By the end of the seven daysMelafix had not only stopped, but reversed to the point that you could almost detect no fin loss. The best thing of all is it is all natural and can be used with any fish. It may be too late to use in your situation but for next time??

doctorzeb · Post by **doctorzeb** » 08 Oct 2003, 14:13

Could be a plan Flyinmike.

I did treat the fish with Myxazin (just a very very light does, as you would for sterilising nets etc) when I first got him to reduce the chance of stress, but I thinknyou could be right. The vet is on his way, much to my wife's horror, and he has viewed the forum topic to see the pictures. Which I think he found rather entertaining. He thinks it could be a bacterial ulcer infection. So if that is the case, I would have thought a stressed fish with a few tears etc would be suceptible. Like ourselves, the minute we get run down we reduce our imunity to things we would normally brush off!

I'm amazed he is still alive, so I've almost built up some hope.

Got to say thanks to everyone however, I was overwhelmed by the response, and some very interesting discussions.

rob

pturley · Post by **pturley** » 08 Oct 2003, 17:24

Rob, good to hear your fish is still hanging in there...

For the Moderators of this forum: What happened to my post?

Sincerely,
Paul E. Turley

EDIT: Found it! Been moved to "Speak Easy".

Post by **Barbie** » 08 Oct 2003, 17:54

You're really lucky Rob to have a fish vet at your disposal. Most of us don't. When I worked as a vet. tech. I would take pictures of problems and I bought a good diagnostic book or two of bacterial and other problems for the vet to compare slides to. He was a trooper, but it was obviously something he had no real feel for. There's nothing even remotely available for fish here locally in Spokane.

I really hope he comes through it ok. It will be interesting to see how he recommends treating the fish, I think.

Barbie

doctorzeb · Post by **doctorzeb** » 08 Oct 2003, 19:21

Hi guys

well the vet has been, and yes Barbie, I really am lucky, apparently there are four members of the practice throughout the UK and that is their sole business. They deal primerily with commercial but enjoy helping out the odd aquarist. Got to say, He found the forum rather entertaining and understands both sides of the arguement. He especially realises your point pturly, which is why they opperate such stringent controls, but I'll post the rest of my comments in the post in the speak easy.

My L091 has had the full works, pete (the vet) even brought a microscope with him (a little bigger than the one you were looking at barbie

). After some swabs and scrapes, we was able to rule out a couple of things including Flexibacter columnaris.

Iâ??ve to continue with the salt solution and Myxazin and keep my fingers crossed. He will create a bacterial culture from the swabs and inform of the results in the next 3 days.

Heâ??s certainly putting up a good fight.

Cheers again everyone

rob

Post by **Barbie** » 08 Oct 2003, 19:30

That's awesome to hear Rob

Hopefully he's going to manage to hang on and give the antibiotics time to work, if he's gotten this far. I've wondered a few times about giving injections to fish, and considered trying it a time or two, to the extent that I actually hunted down some drawings on how and where to give them. I'm just a chicken I guess. I've been giving injections to farm animals and the like for years, but with fish it just doesn't seem so cut and dried, not to mention, its hard to know if the same dosing criteria as far as mg/pound would translate into fish terms without a vet to consult with. Needless to say, I can't see myself getting adventurous enough to test it anytime in the near future

Barbie

S. Allen · Post by **S. Allen** » 08 Oct 2003, 20:59

Zeb, i really have to ask... How expensive is such a service?

And glad he's still struggling through, hope things work well for him

doctorzeb · Post by **doctorzeb** » 08 Oct 2003, 22:09

Hi Scott

It's going to come to about Â£50 - Â£60 which is about $80 - $90 i think. I guess considering the fish cost Â£25 it's false economy but the way I see it is if it was one of my zebra's I wouldn't think twice.

I was even surprised when my delightful wife gave me the go-ahead. It's also for the piece of mind aspect, this way I will know what to look for, whether it can reoccur, and what I can do to prevent it. When I get the swab results back I will know exactly what it is, something I've never been able to say before. Usually with most fish diagnosis, it's a case of "well it could be this, or it might be that". I can't stress how lucky I am to have this service so close by I don't think it is something offered a great deal.

Usually vets will be the first to admit that fish are not there speciality, and when you get people such as yourself and others on this forum the expertise fantastic and based on personal knoweldge . i.e when you become obsessed with a particular species, you try and learn as much about it as possible, unlike veterinary medicine where it is primerily a braod spectum and not species specific.

Oh yes, and he seems to be doing better!!!!

rob

S. Allen · Post by **S. Allen** » 09 Oct 2003, 03:57

heh, ok... that's actually fairly reasonable... I don't think I have a pleco I could afford that on right now, but the stingrays indeed would get consideration.

doctorzeb · Post by **doctorzeb** » 09 Oct 2003, 11:40

He's still hanging in there!!

If he does survive (touch wood), I think it'll be a while before I have a beautiful fish again, and I'll have to keep a close eye on him as he will be susseptible to future infections for a while.

rob

doctorzeb · Post by **doctorzeb** » 09 Oct 2003, 18:32

Looks like I spoke too soon.

Just went into the lounge and saw what was a beautiful , (and increasingly expensive) L091, wihc didn't even time to get itself a name, was lying belly up. It's basically just happened a few minutes ago as he still looks as he did when he was alive.

Think I'll go and have a beer and toast his short little life!

Cheers for all the help guys, I think I will refrain from any other L numbers in the comunity tank!

rob

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 09 Oct 2003, 19:02

Well, we all lose fish, but it's never nice to hear. At least in this case we may get some interesting feedback from the aquavet?

Jools

doctorzeb · Post by **doctorzeb** » 09 Oct 2003, 19:32

Yup

And I've got to say, even after studying Biology for 2 1/2 years (and dropping out to become an engineer), I know more about bacteria than I did a week ago. More mind numbingly dull and irrelevant facts to spout in the pub!

rob