Adonis raised in tanks still reach 39"?

[knifegill]

Does anybody have an Acanthicus Adonis over 16" that was farmed and tank-raised? And please don't just post famous pictures from the internet of giant wild-caught specimens. I want to hear from a person who purchased a two-inch Adonis and grew it out to legendary size. If you exist.

[Richard B]

I don't know if it is a farmed fish or a wild caught, but Wharf Aquatics in Nottingham has/had a massive one in their big display tank which was a small fish grown up in aquaria

[MatsP]

I wasn't aware that these are farmed - I was under the impression that the ones we see in the trade are all wild-caught.

What is harder to say of course is the size they will practialy attain in a tank - it is highly likely that the "usual size" is less than 39" because there are so few people who have the tank capacity, filter capacity and provide the right conditions for the fish to grow to it's full potential. However, that just shows that it's difficult to keep large fish in captivity - if you were to catch a killer-whale and keep it in an average swimming pool, it probably won't reach it's real size either, and if you have a son or daughter, and feed him/her half the recommended amount of milk-powder in the feeds, your child will grow up smaller than his/her friends of the same age - but if you were to do so, I'm sure the legal system would put you in prison or at least take the child off you. So doing something that has the same effect on a large fish should clearly also be considered rather cruel.

In your opinion, what makes the fish grow larger in the wild than in an aquarium? Or are you just trying to prove my point, by showing that the fish DOESN'T normally reach it's full potential in captivity, and thus should not be kept in a tank?

--
Mats

[knifegill]

In my opinion, what makes most fish grow larger in the wild is that generations of speciation geared toward that exact environment it was hatched in can be fully taken advantage of. The digestive enzymes, the way it processes the exact wavelength that reaches that longitude, the seasonal shifts and population stability all weave themselves into the genes of the fish. Without this play of nutrient and water parameters, prey and predation, the individual fish will never develop as predestined genetically. In an aquarium, its basic caloric needs are met or exceeded, mild toxins are constantly threatening the organism and natural behaviors which would have led the fish to make all sorts of food discoveries and resting periods are not happening and the fish just sits there, aging prematurely and waiting for its next nutrient-deficient-in-spite-of-our-very-best-efforts calorie load.

The number of years afforded a wild fish may also be longer because of these same factors lending to a larger size thanks to the years of steady growth.

I am mostly asserting that aquariums are unsuitable, but not in the obvious size and filtration inadequacies. A member on MFK who is know for the longevity of her stock and precise control of water quality has a five year old Adonis which is only 15". I'm sure she is keeping the nitrAtes reasonable low. So my thoughts and questions are as follows:

Is a five-year-old A. Adonis at 15" perfectly normal and healthy and will it continue to grow steadily?

Could he be more sensitive to nitrAtes? Any amount of nitrAte is a stressor, even when kept as low as standard care dictates, say between 5ppm and 15ppm. Is it more of a problem with this specific fish?

Perhaps this pleco is actually smaller than it should be because in the wild it would have been eating a perfect blend of small crustacea with wild lush algae all day long as opposed to alternating doses of vegetable matter and meaty foods with fasting between feedings.

How big are most captive adonises by year five?

Frankly, my questions are as numerous as the variables surrounding fish growth.

And yes, I have it on good intel they are indeed being spawned en masse.

[MatsP]

What I think you are saying about the natural habitat and the fish's adoption to it makes sense - the fish is adapted to their natural habitat. Although for fish like Acanthicus adonis, they have a wide distribution, and I don't think it's right to say that they are adapted to the EXACT environment they are born in when they live in rivers that stretched many thousands of miles and vary quite a lot in water chemistry and other aspect. Sure, there may be some minor genetic adaptions in the local population. But I believe these fish are fairly adaptable.

When you say it's 5 years old, do you mean from when it was hatched, or when it came into the tank? How big was it when it came into the tank?

Let's first state that 5 years is not at all old for this type of fish - I'd expect these fish to live for a very long time, if small Hypancistrus can live for 15 years, then you'd certainly see how a large species like Acanthicus could easily reach 20 years old. Once they reach 12-15" that they grow fairly slowly - and the fact that food isn't always available in a tank makes them grow slower - and of course, the dietary requirement of the fish may alter throuogh its lifetime.

How low is "reasonably low nitrates"? It is well known that nitrates are a growth inhibitor in some fish. I don't know if Acanthicus are more or less sensitive than other Loricariids. Remember, these fish live in the bigger river channels, so in nature, nitrate levels would be low throughout the year.

And yes, I agree, keeping any large fish in a tank that isn't suitably large [and a 15" fish needs a fair size tank, a 30" fish needs something enormous - according to the basic 4L x 2L x 2L guideline, it would need to be 10ft x 5ft x 5ft - that is 6750 liter or 1800 us gallons - and that would definitely need strengthened floors! To GROW large fish quickly, it would probably need more space and large frequent water changes.

--
Mats

[Mike_Noren]

Given optimal conditions this species grows too big for normal aquaria.

Given poor conditions, e.g. prolonged periods of starvation, it can be stunted to smaller size - but then why keep this species instead of a smaller species?

If what you want is a pony, don't buy a clydesdale and try to keep it from growing.

[MatsP]

Well put, Mike!

--
Mats

[sidguppy]

out of sheer curiousity I had to look that up......



didn't Jethro Tull dedicate an album to beasts like this?

qualifies as "Heavy Horse" in my book

[knifegill]

Good humor here. Love it.


The pleco was a valentine gift five years ago, so I assume it was purchased at the usual 2" to 3" size.

I agree that the Adonis is adaptable but also assert that river aufwuchs, which the wild fish gets, differs greatly from aquaria aufwuchs.

By reasonably low nitrAtes I do mean in the 5ppm to 15ppm range. This is a fairly standard range for well-maintained tanks. I'm experimenting remote with a freshwater deep sand bed to test its nitrate-reducing capacity, for the record.

I sure hope nobody would advocate keeping this species in improper conditions intentionally like the horse analogy. But my point here is that we aren't providing nature. Life in even the best tanks is still life in a tank.

Considering little platydoras easily live 20 years, there's no saying how old some of the adonises we've seen reeled in could be. I would easily suspect thirty or more years old. Which is why I'm wondering if they grow something like an inch per year once mature. But so far it seems nobody really knows the answer to that.
I guarantee the fish I speak of is well-taken care of as aquaria go.

Is there any data on the growth rate of wild specimens? My little baby is only 3", but my first adonis (died of bloat, RIP) came to me the same size but got to be 10" within a year and a half. This was in captivity with frequent water changes (of dechlorinated tap water) and good variety of foods (vegetables and prepared food, not algae and little invertebrates) so I want to know, without powerfeeding (oh, early deaths to those poor fish if done incorrectly) that my fish is reaching its potential.

My thinking is that within five years, I should be able to get this fish past 18" like most large cats. Am I wrong?

[MatsP]

To answer this question, we would need to have several keepers that have kept these fish in excellent conditions. It is not a rare fish, but it's rare to find tanks, filter systems etc that are sufficient to keep these fish under good conditions, which means that there is a bit of a difficulty in finding something that is statistically useful. Just one or two reports is not particularly meaningful.

And correct food is of course another matter. I'm not sure there is a huge difference in WHAT is in the aufwuchs in an aquarium compared to the wild, but certainly there would be a difference in quantity - surely a 2-3ft long fish will cover much more than a few square feet that a tank would offer.

--
Mats

[knifegill]

This would be the reason I've posted here. Of all the web places to find responsible adonis owners, I'd think this site ranks high. Sure, a few anecdotal accounts aren't much to go on, especially if they represent the median. But if even one keeper can attest to a great adult size attained in captivity in short time, I'd have a little something to go on.

[Mike_Noren]

Is there any data on the growth rate of wild specimens?

That kind of information typically only exist for commercially important species, rarely for hobbyist fish.

[MatsP]

Is there any data on the growth rate of wild specimens?

That kind of information typically only exist for commercially important species, rarely for hobbyist fish.

And these aren't even eaten by the natives, as I understand it. Possibly due to the fact that they are reputed to eat human waste - and I don't mean potato peelings...

--
Mats

[Suckermouth]

Is there any data on the growth rate of wild specimens?

AFAIK, the only information on loricariid growth rate is for

Panaque nigrolineatus

and

Hypostomus regani

; it was found that growth rate was highly variable among individuals and that fish size was not well correlated with age; these are fish from the wild. There may also be something on it you can pull out of the introduced Pterygoplichthys literature but I'm not aware of anything; I'd guess Pterygoplichthys would grow fairly fast, though.

[grokefish]

I don't know if it is a farmed fish or a wild caught, but Wharf Aquatics in Nottingham has/had a massive one in their big display tank which was a small fish grown up in aquaria

It is worth going there just to see this fish!!!!!!!!!!!

And also I now know what to feed my Adonis, save me having to leave the living room to go to the toilet, I spose.

[knifegill]

Thanks, that was the answer I wanted. Data does not exist. Okay. I'll just do what makes sense, then. Big tank, lots of algae/greens and pellet with occasional meaty treats. And wood to rasp, gotta have that wood. Edible wood, too, not pet store mopani.

[knifegill]

Body length from nose to caudal peduncle is now just over 3". Total length from nose to end of whips is six inches.

[taksan]

Mine was 2" about 5 years ago .... is about 24" now .....

[knifegill]

That's a new variable! I'd surely enjoy seeing mine reach that size soon. So that's 24" body? How long is he including his whips? Would you be willing to share your dietary choices for the fish as well as, perhaps, any water details you think might be relevant?

[racoll]

In an aquarium, its basic caloric needs are met or exceeded

I very much doubt it. Given adequate water quality, almost certainly the limiting factor for growth in the aquarium is food supply.

Like most loricariids, they are likely to feed almost constantly in the wild, and our twice day feedings are unlikely to be sufficient to fulfil the growth potential of this large fish.

The trouble, as you know, is if you pile the food in you are likely to suffer water quality problems, which may also stunt or kill the fish.

[knifegill]

This may be true for many, but I feel that I do provide constant food for my Adonis. It means vacuuming gravel and changing water twice a week but he's always got a vegetable to gnaw on and algae to hunt for, wood slime to consume and even stray worms and scuds in the gravel to a degree as well as my current affliction of midgefly tube larvae to ingest. Granted, once he passes the 10" he'll be moving into a different tank, but I feel confident that I'll be able to provide the same food flow there as well. He almost never stops pooping so I'm pretty sure I'm doing right by him, and nitrates rarely exceed 25ppm in there. I'd like them lower, so I'll probably be thinning out the stock a lot soon. My first adonis (died of mysterious bloat) made it to about 9" in under a year which may be typical for the species but has me feeling confident at least.

[ceh]

i have one 11" dont gorow more but he lost almost all wite spots

[taksan]

That's a new variable! I'd surely enjoy seeing mine reach that size soon. So that's 24" body? How long is he including his whips? Would you be willing to share your dietary choices for the fish as well as, perhaps, any water details you think might be relevant?

I dunno exactly but he's a big fish now I haven't seen him for a few months as he's living about 9000 miles away from me now. I'll check him out next week when I'm home for Xmas. He's a nasty piece of work too ... quite a aggressive fish towards Gibby's etc and I'm fairly sure he killed a Raphael I had. He eats a lot of sinking tablets etc. He's in with a heap of Peacock Bass and various other fish in a big 4000 liter tank. They are not difficult to keep provided you have the water and do the water changes. Not exactly a pretty fish when a adult got nicknamed the BUG (Big ugly guy).

[knifegill]

I think they only look more awesome with size. To me they're big, spiky war machines. I can't wait for the day I scrub off a whole squash and toss it in to have it be gone the next day.

[taksan]

To me they're big, spiky war machines.

Whatever floats your boat I guess .... :character-beavisbutthead:

[Mike_Noren]

He's in with a heap of Peacock Bass and various other fish in a big 4000 liter tank.

That's probably a good setup if you want it to grow big: lots of space and lots of protein-rich food (large cichlids are voracious and messy eaters).

[Firestorming]

I know that it is not quite the same, but just to add some more food for thought.
I bought 2 Pterygoplichthys gibbiceps to be the sole inhabitants of a 700L tank. One albino and one "standard", both were purchased at the same time from the same store at the 2 1/2 inch mark.

I set the tank up with plenty of room and a 3500lph cannister, feeding has always been high quality food at regular intervals and spread evenly to reduce the chance of a biffo as they grew.

Even accounting for the chance of opposite sexes the growth rates have been very different,
The standard one rocketed up to 8" and has now slowed down, the albino was "runtish" (at 5 1/2-6") I thought but it has now shot up to 14" and the standard one is sitting at 10".

I believe that just like people some have growth spurts at different stages and might be genetically pre-disposed to grow at an accelerated rate. I thought the long term effects of fast growers might be interesting to note, so I have started keeping a journal.
I know of some fish that when kept in warmer oxygen rich water will grow at insane rates, but appear have a reduced life expectancy, like watching a life in fast forward time lapse.

I dont have access to many large Loricariidae in my part of the world, but I still think this info from a different species can demonstrate the variables that are found both in nature and aquaria.

[mi-tatsu]

I don't know if it is a farmed fish or a wild caught, but Wharf Aquatics in Nottingham has/had a massive one in their big display tank which was a small fish grown up in aquaria

It is worth going there just to see this fish!!!!!!!!!!!

And also I now know what to feed my Adonis, save me having to leave the living room to go to the toilet, I spose.

the wharf fella is long gone they sold him about 4 -5 months ago