Newly Adopted & Ill Eupterus

[GoldenFeather]

1 of 2; Part I
_______
Hello Everyone,

I’m here looking for help and to learn. I’m new to this, just began a couple weeks ago with my husband. We now have two fishes; a Featherfin Eupterus and his little tank mate – a 3.35” Golden Algae Eater whom we’ve adopted that we’ve name Nui (new-ee) Big and Li’i (lee-ee) Small. Nui is 7+” with tail. I don’t know their sex but call .+Nui he and the other she. They are in a glass 10g tank with filter, sm airstone on sm pump with hood (glass top) and light bar. The filter/Whisper 20 that no longer whispers but chugs now and then. Also the flow control has no affect, water flow is limited and it’s propped up higher to create extra oxygen. I think. They also came with a small dark blue 2” container (very old) of small food pellets which they wouldn’t eat.

I have been overwhelmed with not learning as quickly as I’ve needed. Being unable to find local assistance, we’re in one of the most remote rainforest in Hawaii. Finding out I needed to learn first, what it is I need to learn – due to this being a situation of taking over an existing aquarium with life in it vs setting up a new tank. Much online info is geared towards new systems. At the same time trying to rescue them from a horrible nightmare and my own mistakes, two of them life threatening due to my ignorance. Below I’ve tried to describe the current facts and symptoms. I’ll follow this post with some description of where and how I found them. It may be helpful in identifying some problems.

Most likely both fish are ill with skin issues and possibly have some internal issues. However, skin issues are not as apparent on Li’i for obvious reasons. With all they’ve been through, they are at this moment and have been for a few days, active with good appetites.

Symptoms...
Nui’s skin is covered with a silvery sheen, it looks like velvet to me. Though I think there may be problems as well. He also has some white spots, that look like they could be ick/ich. If so it may be recently began (with good cause). Other unhealthy markings are a couple raw scratches where he’s rubbed against objects. Some have healed and scarred others are new (3 of them). He does try to swim quickly with a sharpish turn now and then. At first I thought it because he wants to flex his fins and body being bound in this small tank. Now I’m not sure. It isn’t often maybe ever couple days or so. And then several times. Usually at night after the lights are out. He had an open ulcer looking hole on his back a week or so ago. It was about 1 mm (maybe) with a raw red spot in the center. It was at the back end on the right side of his dorsal fin. It seemed to heal overnight. He had a couple scratches on the same side which have also healed. On this same side as well I noticed a brownish/gold spot nearer his gills that seemed to have a texture to it, kinda dry. It is odd shaped, has corners, a fat little rectangle with a bend. Its also going away bit by bit. He has new scratches on his other side this week. They show white, I’m afraid its his raw skin. He has gained weight regularly since we’ve had him thank goodness.. It’s clear that his body flesh is not where it should be when I compare him to others his size and color. I think he may be an elder but still should be better fleshed. I found a post here questioning the species mortality details who shared a photo of his 24 year old Eupterus and he was well fleshed. There are a couple more areas I’m concerned with too. His eyes are cloudy but have been clearing a little and I’m questioning what healthy genitals should look like. I’ll do a search for that to see if I can find some info. His digestive cycle is working fine – I think. Though I don’t actually now what is normal re: color, size and shape.

I found that he likes to have his picture taken last night. I got a couple photos where you can see the skeletal structure beneath his skin. forehead and above/around area of his gills area mostly. His stomach was very depressed at first but is filling out again. They’re both improving I think, hope

Thank you for the time you've taken to read... it's much valued

_______

Part II continued next post

[GoldenFeather]

2 of 2; Part I
_______
Because I actually brought more harm to them than had already been done to them with a couple of my earlier efforts, I’m afraid to do anything more (except some water changes) without second opinions from person(s) who actually know about the care of Nui’s species. I also need help intelligently identifying issues properly, diagnosing health problems correctly and their cures/remedies. And because there are multiple issues, I need help prioritizing a plan take care the various complications and worries. I’ll continue to research the archives here with hopes of being able to comprehend technicalities involved, at least to some degree. Last, I’d welcome criticism from this membership if anyone thinks it’s needed. These are survivors at the very top of the list.

Below is a list of items I’ve identified as needed. “A” List: things I have on hand; and “B”: things en route and should arrive this week or early next.

“A” List...Supplies on hand:

• Filter Media Replacements
  New Whisper 20 (in box) ?
  Stress Coat
  Stress Zyme
  Generic pH test strips
  2 Small cartridges of Zeolite
  Tetra Tropical Flakes
  Hiraki Algae Wafers
  Shrimp Pellets
  Frozen Brine Shrimp

“B” List... Supplies en route:

• Medicine:
  Quick Cure (I expect it tomorrow or Wednesday. The multiple-chemical remedies were scarry)
  Food:
  Hiraki Freeze Dried Bloodworms (had the best elements %'s)
  Tetra Doromin Sticks (???)
  Water:
  Tests: API Master Kit; Sera Cl Test Kit
  Conditioners: Zeolite; Jungle ' Ammonia Clear Tank Buddies
  Hardware:
  Penn Plax Floating Theremometer
  Fluval Tronic Submersible Heater
  Tank:
  55 Gallon Glass Aquarium w/two Filters & a Glass Top (pick up Fri/Mon)
  - Stand

From the items above you can tell what I’ve been able to learn and if I’m facing the right direction(s). You can also tell what I’ve been able to do and not thus far.

** I do need to change the filter today. I think I need to take the media from the old one and transfer it to the new one vs using the fresh media. I’m just wondering about the intake valve since its full of bacteria. Part of me wants to leave it in, either on the new filter or just in the tank for a bit. I have a deep fear of throwing off what little bit of a cycle we’re able right now. If any at all

Nui and Li’i have broken and stolen our hearts.

Thank you very much in advance for any time or considerations you might share with us... It is greatly valued.GF
_______
end Part I

[Jools]

Assuming they don't look thin in the belly, I'd stop feeding for a few days. Just to lay off on the filter. On the plus side, you have two very hardy fish, so I think they can be brought around.

The skin condition will likely be caused by poor water conditions either in the past (their history isn't covered) or right now. Change 25% water daily, preferably with water you've aged overnight in a never-used-for-anything-else container/bucket.

Of all the stuff, the stress coat would be a good additive, in these situations it's always a fight not to do too much. Test everything you can and post the results. What's your tapwater like? Test that too! Can you collect rainwater?

What size is a 10g? That sounds quite small? Moving to the big tank is great, but it's also something to do one fish at a time. I'd move the Syno first.
What temperature is the water at?

Yes to the filter media retention in new filter housing, by why are you changing the filter as opposed to just cleaning the sponge?

Some pics might also help.

Jools

[GoldenFeather]

Thank you Jools,

I'll take your advice. The filter's mechanics are worn out I think. It isn't running well at all, the dial to adjust the flow has no affect on it. From the way its' hum increases and decreases sometimes it seems to be the filter. And the intake just isn't taking much water in at all. I had cleaned the sponge several days ago. So I bought a new filter, I was just waiting for confirmation on retaining the old media.

Sorry I haven't gotten the background details in yet. My first post was 98 paragraphs. Decided try to provide most critical info first. But not really knowing what that is, I may be going backwards. I'm unable to do any tests until they arrive. All I have are the pH strips. The pH is a little low today by them so I was planning to do a change. Our water quality is pretty good but there is chlorine but none of the other toxic chemicals usually in tap water. I can catch rain and definitely will now. When I first got them and had gotten them set up I learned about chlorine being so bad for them and had no conditioner yet. So I went back to my old place I had just moved from to get water. I'm on well water now but the well I was on before won 2nd best water quality in the nation a few years ago. I thought 'mmm that water should be great for them'. I don't think it was and won't know until I can test it as I always have access to it. They seemed to decline a little with it.

I've been doing water changes ever two or three days to keep things going for them in this little tank. But without any tests, worried about the cycle and having done some harm with the fresh well water, I'm trying to limit it. I've just been going by their behavior.

Someone else had said to stop feeding them and I was going to but their stomachs are definitely depressed and couldn't. They were so very skinny but are putting some weight on now thank goodness. I'm looking forward to the bloodworms though. So I decided to take my own council and continued to feed them. Plus, they don't mind me cleaning the gravel, at all. He actually likes to get close and watch. ??? Right now he's trying to itch his body. Does water change help with that?

They are hardy, that's for sure...thank you so much for the encouraging words on their survival through this. you've lifted a ton off my heart. They are incredibly personable... Nui's as responsive as a puppy. Honestly I think he wants pets when he's feeling good.

I need to get you the history soonest I can. I'll work on it now. I've almost got the images ready to go up. I had read a post on a single image upload rule so I'm having my husband put them on a site and I'll get the URL to you. Then I'll get their history and a summary on what I've done for and unfortunately to them up. Your guess is right though, they have been subjected to poor water quality.

Thanks again...

[Birger]

I've almost got the images ready to go up. I had read a post on a single image upload rule so I'm having my husband put them on a site and I'll get the URL to you.

You can add multiple images by using the upload feature supplied as you post a reply...It is better to downsize your photo just as if you were going to email them to someone.

Birger

[GoldenFeather]

Thanks Birger, Next time I do it that way...

I've posted the images at:
http://gallery.me.com/scottcrawford/100279

RE: Images

I’ve decided to get images up before getting background details posted thinking they might be of more use with any analysis that may be done. If other images are needed please let me know and I'll take care of it.

The water is a little cloudy still and I’ve let the algae grow on the glass as they constantly try to eat at its’ surface. Sorry about the outside (spots). The flash has caused some reflective spots that actually aren’t on Nui’s skin. The white streak beside the base of his right gill is tho’ one of the new scratchs.

Other symptoms I’ve observed are: (a) where the skin area of the face meets the body skin there is a division. His shows signs of deterioration. I don’t know if the skin has just died back a little from old age (I can’t find out his age) or been eaten/burned off by bad water or skin condition??? The edges are worn/deteriorated and lifting a little vs smooth and connected; (b) the flesh of his mouth (looking in) is white on the sides and more pink towards the center. I think there was less white than there is now a couple weeks ago. I guess I should also say that I see no fuzz, cotton or fibrous looking matter in this area (or any others); and (c) at the site of his genitals, there is a little protrusion when he’s relaxed, it withdraws back into his body when he moves or swims. It’s a healthy pink and I did get a photo of it. There’s also white flesh immediately around the circumfrance of the pink flesh/nub. Can’t see it very well in the photo but it may be enough for an experienced eye to tell if there might be a problem.

FYI/re: symptoms descriptions, – there is no fuzzy or cotton like fibrous matter anywhere on the fish. And there are no threads or worms coming out of their skin. But given their situation I will doubt nothing as possible.

Thanks again planetcatfish members... for any time at all and your valued expertise.
.
____ Part II follow-up with descriptive background info after I do a water and possibly filter change. GF

[GoldenFeather]

I forgot to ask this earlier but I'm hoping I'm not too late to get a response from someone before the night gets along much further. Our thanks to anyone still up and able to help out.

From what I've read so far on both Nui and Li'i, their water temperature needs are very close except that the Golden Algae Eater can deal in water a couple degrees cooler. To preface the question, the thermometer and heater I've ordered hasn't arrived yet. The temperature dropped last night to 59°. I haven't found an article discussing water temps vs room temps without heaters or chillers. I've covered the tank at night for the past week anyway but I don't know if it helps. I've also begun leaving the light on later in the evening to help warm it.

Question: is there a way to manually warm the water safely? And is there a way or formula to determine the temp inside the tank with the temp outside it based on size and volume?

Hopeful...GF

[MatsP]

59'F in the tank itself? That is really not a good idea for tropical fish. Some may well survive that for a short time, but I would certainly make it a high priority to get a heater fitted in the tank.

As an emergency, make a water change with warmer water - just do it slowly, as a sudden rise in temperature is just as bad as a sudden drop.

If you can warm up the room in some way, such as a electric raditator/fan-heater - the tank temperature will not go below your room temperature, so if you can get the room to, say 72-75'F, then the tank will also be at that temperature.

--
Mats

[Jools]

You can also warm the water with a desk lamp but be VERY careful, it's easy to overheat the water. It's all about the distance from bulb to water surface.

I entirely agree with Birger, the temperature is the main problem, when doing water changes, 25% added at 80F would not harm.

From the pics they are not in really bad condition, poor condition, yes. I agree the Syno (quite an old fish) needs food, but he'll do a week without food without harm in his condition.

Re rainwater, test it before you use it. If you're tapwater is good, then don't bother.

What gravel is that white stuff? Is it calciferous? Probably not a problem if it is, just interested and possibly not a good idea for the new 55gal.

Jools

[GoldenFeather]

Life saver. Thanks tons Matts.

No, I don't know what the water was as the thermometer hasn't arrived yet but if you say it is what the room is then it was around 60°. Hopefully tomorrow it will be here. Thank you for helping target the priorities. I have been able to get the water a little warmer with your help.

Unfortunately I don't have a heater of any sort. Low tonight is 49°/9° high 59°/15°. My fingers have become l accustomed to a temp that they feel good in. I can only tell by their actions. This has been a jungle rescue. Had a power outage on their worst day for five hours. They are incredible/amazing little beings.

I've just recalled a heating pad. Someplace? Maybe I could use it – place it next to the glass on one side on low? Then check the water regularly. I've covered the tank snuggly with a blanket for the night and morning; except over the light when on.

Matts, you really helped, thank you again. Who knows, I could have lost them tonight. Again.

Thank you....

[Jools]

Yes, covering the tank in warm towels will help with heat loss although it has to be done when the tank is at its warmest. What I do is use a large beer cooler which has significantly more volume than 10 US gal and plonk the filter in there too - I keep fish in this for upto several days while moving/cleaning tanks.

Jools

[naturalart]

Thank you for saving these fish. Considering that you are "remote" in terms of getting to a brick-and-morter fishstore It sounds like you are getting the right things for your fish. But I would add a generator to that list of you can afford it. A 'small' one to run your aquarium would suffice.

couple questions: 1) when you say clean the sponge, what does that mean? Just using tap or conditioned water and a good squeezing/beating against the side of the basin should suffice.
2) I dont understand "I'm wondering about the intake valve since its full of bacteria." Do you mean intake sponge or tube? At any rate leaving it in the new water or tank will definitely transfer good bacteria. Don't focus to much on the Zeolite.

Also you may be having problems with your old filter because you've lifted it above what the pump can handle, or your waterline is too low. Or you may just need a new impeller, or it may be as you say 'just old'.

Luckily these 2 fish are well known in the aquarium hobby. And they are both adaptable and resourceful fish. And I am reluctant to say this but: although I can't see the pic you posted because my old operating system wont allow it, I have a suspicion that some of the skin problems your eupterus (Nui) is having may be caused by the algea eater (Li'i). Gyrinocheilus aymonieri weather its golden or regular color has a taste for fish slime, skin and most other parts of fishes for that matter. Li'i may be rasping/scraping Nui's skin when the old fish is resting or cold and slow moving. Hopefully, raising the temp and feeding more nutritious foods will curb this. Otherwise you might consider leaving Li'i behind in the 10 gallon (my bias).

Stay away from the chemicals and meds as much as possible. Try and solve your problems first with good nutrition, healthy filters and regular, appropriate waterchanges.

Welcome to the hobby.

[GoldenFeather]

Hi Everyone and a forever thank you,

I've finally had the time to get the background done and up. I find it difficult to be concise when I'm impassioned (more upset in this case) about something. I've tried my best to though. Being a writer/storyteller, also contributes to more descriptive verbiage. So here's the background info...

Background on Nui & Li’i

We found these fish when we moved into a new apt. Being taken through a cottage on the property to select what furniture pieces we’d like to use. The aquarium’s what caught my eye as I’d always wanted to have one. She said it’d be great if I wanted to take care of it “there was a fish in there and I think it might still be alive”. “I don’t know (laugh) I’ve found several floating dead but I think one’s still in there”. Said she still sprinkles some food in now and then. Nui & Li’i’s caregiver and land owner her had passed away. In June. This is November? The situation is appalling, unfathomable, an atrocity. Nui and Li’i lived in this 10g tank, sitting in the east window (east side of the island) for 6 mo +. With barely any care whatsoever. I asked later about water changes; found she’d top it off from the tap now and then a (no conditioners). No food, no water, no conditioners, nothing. I agreed to take it but only with the condition that I would own it not use it offering to buy it.

Sadly, their owner Frank, an elderly man, had been terminally ill and bed ridden for some time in the cottage. Unfortunately he was unable to make provisions for them. The tank was dank, dark, thick, a bog or lagoon is what it reminded me of. And extremely unfortunate is the fact that I/we knew nothing at all and are still learning.

Wanting to rescue them as quickly as possible was probably my first error. I got online to find out about things and in the time-frame we were working with I found chemistry info mute at that point as we had nothing listed we’d need to use. Finally I found a simple list of tips on how to do a water change and thought it would work best. One of te neighbors told me how as well. Her advice was to take out the fish and stuff to clean it all. Leave the fish in bags of water from the tank. Use the gravel to clean the glass and then rinse it all out, put everything back, done. There were a couple things I’d read that sent up red flags tho” ie: not using buckets/vessels that had had chemicals in them before; keeping the part of the filter immersed in water wet; to return old water back to various degrees. We returned about 79% They seemed to love it. But no food to speak of, 10% remained in the container which looked years old. The pellets were sized for a guppy and they wouldn’t eat it anyway. Found some Tetra Tropical Flakes and dealt that way for a bit.

They showed signs of a decline a couple days later. Not stress (based on stress symptoms I’ve read) but lethargic and sedentary. They also seemed to be breathing harder. Forgetting what little I’d learned and learning a little more I got the idea to check the filter. The media may need rinsing. I’d read that was what should be done now and then. When I opened the lid... my mind said ‘O.M.G.’....... It was full to the top, stuffed with algae. And I’m still thinking algae needs to be removed. It was so extremely bad I pulled it all out right then and there. I didn’t turn off the filter, nothing... I could have killed myself. Everything flowed straight into the water that was loose in the well. I thought they would choke on it, that those particles would conjest their gills, kill them (it didn't but it did make them worse). Hurriedly I cleaned the sponge and filter bag in the tap. It was an old worn out bio-bag without any fiber left.. No fiber, no cartridge to hold it up, just a leaky sack tied together with a falling-to-pieces-rubberand. I returned the sponge to the filter and bagged the bag which I put back later. I went online directly after to see about what I had done.

Then next day we had a 6 hour power outage. Thank goodness I had read something on generating oxygen with a dedicated container when power failed the night before. It was sad to realize they had gone through this several times without someone to make oxygen as we have regular black outs. And it showed. As soon as the filter and pump shut down so did they. It was like they were familiar with it and intended to conserve. I think I got more oxygen in there that day than that filter had the entire time I’ve had them.

Not having a syphon vac only an air tube I tried to clean the gravel. No good. Petco couldn’t help without seeing the water and testing it. I read about salt, made sure a Eupterus could deal with it if absolutely necessary. I tried adding 1 tsp per five gallons. It seemed to help a little. I didn’t know to change the water again, I was under the impression I needed to wait at least a week - 10 days. I was able to give water to my niece to take to Petco for me on the other-side of the island the following day. When she called the next morning from the store, she said “the lady says the fish in this water are dead”. She convinced her my fish where alive and I consulted with her via the mobile. She sold me a vac and a bottle of Stress Coat. I repeatedly tried to question her about various possible needs I’d have but she was convinced all I needed to do was clean the water.

She told me to remove 50% and put it back with S.C. and then do it again but with the vacuum cleaning the gravel. I questioned this repeatedly. She was adamant, she was the expert and correct. I had to wait four more hours for the vac to get here. When it did my niece repeated what the girl said. So I was going to do it. But then I wondered if I needed to add Stress Zyme as well (they were packaged together). I called back but the girl was gone. Spoke to another to ask. I found myself asking for a 2nd opinion on the large consecutive water change. She thought I was crazy to want to do it. I told her the other girl had advised this. She wouldn’t bend. I asked if she was an expert and she said yes. To wait seven more days before the 2nd one (I didn’t)

I did the change and it made an improvement right away. But I could tell they weren’t as relieved as they could be. So based on a slow continued up-climb I did a small 10% change the following day. Waited two days, did it again. The next day the slowed so I did a 30% and cleaned the gravel. I’m now on a basic schedule of a 20/25% change with vac every three days. They don’t mind it terribly, Nui actually likes it I think. The reason is his size vs tank size, I think it critical to continue feeding and we’re still without the kits, buffers or remedies. It is working... at least till this point.

I don’t think they’re suffering as badly now, the water is looking better and they’re active with good appetites. And large personalities, especially Nui who is so much like a puppy with me. I swear. He’s very communicative and Li’i’s a little thinker. The heater didn’t arrive today and the forecast is even colder 54°/12° – 51°/10° but at least the low is higher. They did well last evening. Matts came through in time – yeah. And then I found an article on hot water bottles/bags. I used small zip locks, three within the other and just kept switching them out with water at 140°-150° vs boiling which is what the article recommended. As soon as the first one was in Nui swam over and put himself beneath it. Fin up... relief. We’ll be doing it again tonight as their heater didn’t come in yet. I have a friend on the other side and am asking her to pick one up and bring it home tomorrow. I’ll be able to use it in their new tank maybe.

This is what they’ve been through, how I found them and what I’ve done to and for them. I’m so sorry to have subjected them to my learning curve. Good news is: good food’s arrived and so has the Quick Cure. If it will heal their skin afflictions I would like to use it. I’ve read about carbon and meds but don’t know if it will affect this particular medicine. Also, the media in the filter is about a week or so old and would need to come out. But their substraight also has carbon. It’s I don’t know how old. Its definitely 6 months old.

Oh, I also changed the filter last night after a gravel cleaning. It has made a world of difference in there. Now... I know what a filter is supposed to do. The other was drooling.

My heartfelt thanks to anyone who expends their valuable time replying and/or reading...

Take Care ~GF

[GoldenFeather]

Thank you for saving these fish. Considering that you are "remote" in terms of getting to a brick-and-morter fishstore It sounds like you are getting the right things for your fish. But I would add a generator to that list of you can afford it. A 'small' one to run your aquarium would suffice.

couple questions: 1) when you say clean the sponge, what does that mean? Just using tap or conditioned water and a good squeezing/beating against the side of the basin should suffice.
2) I dont understand "I'm wondering about the intake valve since its full of bacteria." Do you mean intake sponge or tube? At any rate leaving it in the new water or tank will definitely transfer good bacteria. Don't focus to much on the Zeolite.

Also you may be having problems with your old filter because you've lifted it above what the pump can handle, or your waterline is too low. Or you may just need a new impeller, or it may be as you say 'just old'.

Luckily these 2 fish are well known in the aquarium hobby. And they are both adaptable and resourceful fish. And I am reluctant to say this but: although I can't see the pic you posted because my old operating system wont allow it, I have a suspicion that some of the skin problems your eupterus (Nui) is having may be caused by the algea eater (Li'i). Gyrinocheilus aymonieri weather its golden or regular color has a taste for fish slime, skin and most other parts of fishes for that matter. Li'i may be rasping/scraping Nui's skin when the old fish is resting or cold and slow moving. Hopefully, raising the temp and feeding more nutritious foods will curb this. Otherwise you might consider leaving Li'i behind in the 10 gallon (my bias).

Stay away from the chemicals and meds as much as possible. Try and solve your problems first with good nutrition, healthy filters and regular, appropriate waterchanges.

Welcome to the hobby.

Naturalart – thank you for the helpful analysis and questions. Regarding a generator, it's a good idea. I'm going to check craigslist to see what they're going for. That's where I found the 55g and it only cost me $100 with two filters and a great wood stand/cupboards. That 5/6 hour black out was a medium range one, the worst has been over 24 hrs but that is very rare. In fact the only one I've been through.

To answer your question, I think Jools suggested I clean the filter sponge first before swapping out the old for new. The background message I just posted (that I forgot to title Part II) describes the event. A very thick-brained moment. Nope, no conditioners... nothing.

Regarding item "2": I meant tube. I went ahead and changed filters also summarized in the background post.

I did find several instances where articles and posts discuss Li'i's species and the violence/death/harm they cause their tank mates. I've kept a close eye on it. In fact, last evening I saw she was laying near his tail... she was cold and snuggling up to him. I've never seen her on her. I see him go for her tail though. But it's very slowly, almost a tease because he follows her to the next place. I think they are bored in this tank, well Nui is. He SO needs a larger body of water. At this point I can't see separating them. And if anything, she's quite leery of him. I'd like to share something that happened while they were most ill.

Li'i was near death I believe. She was on the gravel for two days straight. On the second day I began to think I was losing her as she was beginning the list. I became so worried that I went into the tank (very slowly) with the net to check. I gently touched her side and she didn't move. Well she rocked with the water current. I did this three times... on the third time she shot up into the water and right back onto the gravel. Her species gravity or body somehow allows them to sink fast. I pulled out and back from the tank to observe. Then I moved forward again to see how she was doing again. When I did, Nui came out from behind his tree swimming straight towards me. I thought it was a good sign - coming out out of curiosity (he's a very curious fish). He stopped positioning himself directly over Li'i fanning his fins down on each side of her. Could he have been any clearer.

I think they've become friends that are rather dependent. This may pass with some time in a healthy environment. I'm still cautious and taking to heart what you say... Because, Li'i is still eating algae. It seems to me that most everything I've read said the territorial and aggressive behavior seemed to begin when they matured and began eating fed food. ? I need to find out when they mature. I know for sure that she's at least seven months old. But I suspect she's close or more than two yrs. She could turn... especially when they move. Earlier someone (I'm sorry I forget who at this moment) advised moving Nui alone and first. I have questions as to why but they can wait.

I may be interpreting Nui's physical-language incorrectly... ?? Do others have communicative Eupterus'?

Thanks again Naturalart, GF

[GoldenFeather]

Still no heater but I'm able to keep them warm with the water bags and bundled up in wool with plastic around the glass. Seems to work good.

The shift in food adding the Bio-Pure bloodworms seemed to liven both of them up. Even tho' Li'i's supposed to be an herbivore/not. She just can't catch things because she can't float well. I do see more aggression with both.. and am keeping a keen eye on her. She's spending most of her time staying out of his way.

If anyone has seen the photos (http://gallery.me.com/scottcrawford#100279) could you help me determine if he has a skin disease? (hmhm.. Right now he's floating upside down with his tummy to the water bag)

Naturalart suggested the possiblity of healing him with good food and environment. If this will work I'd of course rather go that route. But if not I need to know if the Quick Cure should be the medicine used to take heal him (and her likely)? Or what it is I need to get? I can't diagnose correctly by photos I find online. I'd only be guessing in ignorance.

Thank you...

[Jools]

I don't see any sign of disease, just over production of mucus and the white eye caused by the water conditions. Get these guys into good stable conditions (no quick changes) and then up the food and they'll be OK I think.

Jools

[naturalart]

When I had my S. eupterus they were, as you say, very curious. And they were very gregarious as well. Syno. eupterus is on of the few syno's which are naturally, very active during the day. And my fish could figure out very quickly weather a simulus was benign or malevolent. Their awareness was really quite amazing. Weather Nui was protecting Li'i or not I couldn't say but neither would I say its not possible. More species than I can remember have exhibited instances of interspecies maternalistic/paternalistic, protective and even altruistic behavior.You saw what you saw and I'll leave it at that.

And yes I would keep an eye on Li'i's amazing rasping abilities.

If you ever move up to 100+ gallons maybe you might consider a small group of S. eupterus. They are really quite entertaining.

[andywoolloo]

Hi. As far as syno euptera behaviour, I have 5 in a 75. 3 yrs old approx.

I remember when I added the youngest one he was quite smaller then the rest. One of the big ones watched out for him, or it appeared he did. When the others would be too boisterous he would block them from him, or like I say, it appeared he did to me.

He would get in between them and be like.. 'now now, easy turbos, he is wee.'

I do have one who seems to be incharge if any rough housing seems to be getting too frisky, the same one who the other seems to show a unison respect for. But who knows, they are hard to tell apart now.

They are very inquisitive, more so outgoing now then when they were younger. They come up to the front and stare at me when I kneel down, they whisker and look for long times.

Mine love the driftwood tangles and large black abs tunnels. They love defrosted Hikari anything just about. They also love Ken's or Aquatic Eco sinking earthworm pellets, Ken's sinking 5 stick blend, Hikari canivore tabs, just about anything really!

They've been known to investigate fruit and veg also. I do 50% water change every 4 days on all my tanks. I use Prime decholor, I keep their temp at 78 pretty much. I run two Rena Xps (canister filters) on that tank, an XP3 and an XP4

[GoldenFeather]

I don't see any sign of disease, just over production of mucus and the white eye caused by the water conditions. Get these guys into good stable conditions (no quick changes) and then up the food and they'll be OK I think.

Jools

What relief, thank you very much Jools, it's a serious weight off mind/heart. I'm guessing but the excess mucus would be protective due to the soupy water they'd lived in? Will his eyes heal as well?

We weren't able to get the 55g Fri due to heavy rains. Planning to pick it up Tuesday. Not having to worry so much about diseases I can spend time needed to research setting it up and transferring Nui over (and possibly Li'i). Someone had suggested transferring Nui first, and aloneholding off on Li'i. Someone else suggested Keeping Li'i in the 10g due to the aggression and habits inherent in her species. Any thoughts on this?

I've been concerned with getting a new/used tank for them. I have a steam cleaner and am thinking that would be the way to go. Because it produces 220°ƒ steam you don't need any soaps/chemicals to kill bacteria. If there are any "Do Not's" in regards this method.

I have another question if you don't mind regarding the new tank and objects. I have a collection of shells, rocks, coral. Is it possible to use things I've found in nature, beaches, freshwater streams, and earth? I was thinking of steaming them as well. But things from the ocean may need to be boiled? Would this work?

Thanks again, GF

[GoldenFeather]

If you ever move up to 100+ gallons maybe you might consider a small group of S. eupterus. They are really quite entertaining.

Hello... I was wondering if I could get another one or two to be with Nui in the 55 gallon? If what they had at Petco were S.E.(s) they were babies? Would it be alright to add baby Eupteris'?

In regards to adding fish to the 55g – , I've seen posts mentioning a few different species with their S.E.'s. Do you happen to have any recommendations?

... (((((smiles)))))
GF

[Jools]

I'd run your new tank for at least a month (if it were me, longer) before adding more fish, it's hard to wait, but really you could undo a lot of good work by rushing this. You want to be sure your existing two fish have entirely recovered and are not harbouring anything. However, at least you have a 10gal quarantine tank for new arrivals! In fact you, could buy baby

Synodontis euptera

and grow them out for a short while in the smaller tank. All in all, fish kept on their own for a long time may react unusually to new arrivals - it's just a try it and see but I'd be more worried about how the CAE would react.

Jools

[naturalart]

Well it's obvious you've got the bug But as Jools suggested, make sure your fish are fully recovered before transferring them to the new tank. Only then would I look at purchasing the younger S. eupterus. and quarantining them in the 10gallon (2 weeks). If you're purchasing from Petco (3 weeks). And dont listen to the clerk or labels, compare them closely with the cat-elog images. You don't want to end up with a hybrid. You could also end up with S. aterima or negriventris; which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing from my point of view. But then I'm a syno kind of guy.

[naturalart]

Other fish could include small rasboras, rainbows, tetras, platies. maybe a gourami or two. Refrain from buying from a tank that has sick fish in it, even if its just one.

I personally don't think its necessary to go the steam cleaning route for a tank, particularly not a new tank. clean warm water and correct scrubby should suffice. If things get tough on a glass tank try a razorblade. If you end up with plexiglass, petco should have the correct scrubby for that, its usually white. You don't want to scratch up your tank with the wrong scrubby.

As far as aquarium "furniture" I would stay away from too many shells or coral. They could harden your water. S. eupterus prefers a neutral to soft water. They can tolerate hard water but I don't know that it helps them longterm. 1 or 2 small shells would seem fine. Driftwood that's been in the stream for a long time should be ok but then I'm not familiar with Hawaii's trees. You want them purged by the water of any harmful chemicals or alkyloids. Hardwoods are better. Research. In general stay away from metals or painted figurines from Petco. I don't know what lava's effect on an aquarium is. Maybe someone else can speak to that.

[GoldenFeather]

As far as aquarium "furniture" I would stay away from too many shells or coral. They could harden your water. S. eupterus prefers a neutral to soft water. They can tolerate hard water but I don't know that it helps them longterm. 1 or 2 small shells would seem fine. Driftwood that's been in the stream for a long time should be ok but then I'm not familiar with Hawaii's trees. You want them purged by the water of any harmful chemicals or alkyloids. Hardwoods are better. Research. In general stay away from metals or painted figurines from Petco. I don't know what lava's effect on an aquarium is. Maybe someone else can speak to that.

Hi All...

*1st, for those who want or need to skip the read, I've a list of questions at the base of the post. I guess those alone w/the spaces between say the most... aloha,

We've been thru a bit here since Fri... haven't had a moment to write. Between Fishes, Cats, Hubby, house and work, HOW do you do it? Nah, I think the time factor will much improve once they're stable. They haven't been. I can look for several reasons but I think it just comes down to a matter of size ie: Nui vs tank.

The API master came and a chlorine kit. I got it to check on my own as well. Our well is descent but not great. The pH from tap is 7.0. I began testing Monday and found pH and ammonia far off the mark. I did some water changes about 20% or less. But found it didn't help much at all. I was worried that Nui's skin was burning. I'd read something about it (another page). Last night i went to do a chg and screwed it up by letting myself be called away, just before I began. I intended to clean the gravel. I set the vac-tube to the side w/out initiating a syphon. When I returned it had initiated itself and emptied a good 25%. I treated some water and added it back. Then I did a quick gravel clean. As quickly as possible going gentle and easy at the same time. All in all it ended up a 40-45% change. I haven't test anything since. I'm planning on just letting it go a bit and focusing on the new tank. I have a couple questions you could perhaps answer please, if you have the time...

1.) should I get pH Up or crushed coral? I have coral here. Can I use it from the ocean? It rolls up on shore after big rains. Like river rocks they're smoothed out. If I can, I think it might be faster than waiting for a shipment?

2.) are there any tips or "do's & don'ts" in regards setting up the new tank for Nui?
3.) when is the right time to transfer him?
4.) i'd like to move Li'i now if Nui's wait time is much longer. I think she may be sucking on him. The spot on his spine directly where it meets his tail is changed some. There's never been any pigmentation there but I'm seeing a bit of a blush?
a.) could a GAE like Li'i suck the dots off Nui?
b.) could Li'i survive in a single gallon fish bowl with a good air pump and stone and/or the old filter? I've one I've never used.
5.) what other test kits are _critical_ to their care?
6.) having the test kits started has made me realize I have nothing to help them out of immediate danger or problems with regard to the water chemistry. What products are needed?
7.) is there a natural or organic way to resolve the imbalances... instead. Are they better?

A Heart Felt Thanks, to those who take the time to read, I consider time an invaluable resource in our lives these days. I don't want to foolishly expend anyones, mine included. If you have the time to answer a question or provide some tips, advice or criticisms it will be very much appreciated.

Have a wonderful evening.. or day... wherever you are in the world! GF

[GoldenFeather]

Hi again,

Something else with this tank is that I've let the algae go, worried about their need for it as they're both regular algae hunters/eaters. Nui can't find much unless it grows on the few leaves. His are they barbles, the branched thingies on the sides of his chin; stop him from cleaning/sucking flat surfaces. He tries tho'.

Would it be okay to clean the glass of algae now that its well in bloom throughout the tank? Does it help the water or is it bad for it?

Thank You, GF

[MatsP]

pH of 7 or a little bit lower is definitely what you should aim for. Higher pH is definitely not better. Having said that,these fish are fine in a wide range of water conditions. As long as it's wet and reasonably clean and right temperature.

Avoid any pH adjusting products like "pH up". They don't make anything better - "snake oil".

Before setting up the new tank:

New tank:
Fill the new tank with dechlorinated water (after putting gravel/sand and whatever decorations you want).
Set up heater. If you have a new filter, set that up too.
Leave everything running for at least a day, and check that pH and temperature are the same (or close, at least).

Once the new tank is set up and you know everything works, you can move the fish. If you are sure the water is very close to the same, just net them and put them in the new tank. If you are concerned that they need acclimatising to their new tank, then use a bucket or some such with the fish and small amount of water from their old tank and drip/scope water from the new tank, slowly. The goal is to more than double the volume of water over say 20 minutes.

At the same time as moving the fish, move the old filter to the new tank. It has all the "good bacteria" that is needed to destroy/detoxify the waste from the fish.

The "golden algae eater" is a sucking loach, and they have been known to suck onto fish from time to time. This could cause problems for the other fish that gets sucked...

The Synodontis I wouldn't expect to eat much algae. It is probably more a case of trying to find some nice chewy bits stuck in the algae. And those barbels are there to "taste" or "smell" the water for foody bits.

No fish deserves to live in a gallon tub of water... Definitely not something that is several inches long.

There are four tests that are key to fish's health - in order of importance:
1. Ammonia (NH3/NH4) - this should always be zero.
2. Nitrite (NO2) (not to be confused with nitrate) - Should be zero.
3. Nitrate (NO3) - as low as possibly, less than 50.
4. KH / pH - these are not the same thing, but basically, one reflects the state of the other. pH between 6-8 or KH higher than 75 ppm (4 dKH [German degrees]).

I'm not sure I've answered ALL your questions, but I think I've covered most of it.

--
Mats

[GoldenFeather]

pH of 7 or a little bit lower is definitely what you should aim for. Higher pH is definitely not better. Having said that,these fish are fine in a wide range of water conditions. As long as it's wet and reasonably clean and right temperature.

The "golden algae eater" is a sucking loach, and they have been known to suck onto fish from time to time. This could cause problems for the other fish that gets sucked...

The Synodontis I wouldn't expect to eat much algae. It is probably more a case of trying to find some nice chewy bits stuck in the algae. And those barbels are there to "taste" or "smell" the water for foody bits.

No fish deserves to live in a gallon tub of water... Definitely not something that is several inches long.

There are four tests that are key to fish's health - in order of importance:
1. Ammonia (NH3/NH4) - this should always be zero.
2. Nitrite (NO2) (not to be confused with nitrate) - Should be zero.
3. Nitrate (NO3) - as low as possibly, less than 50.
4. KH / pH - these are not the same thing, but basically, one reflects the state of the other. pH between 6-8 or KH higher than 75 ppm (4 dKH [German degrees]).
e
I'm not sure I've answered ALL your questions, but I think I've covered most of it.
Mats

Mats; Our thanks...

You've definitely cut it right down the center and laid out a clear comprehensive path for me to follow. Exactly what I need. I suppose Li'i is actually longish at 3.35" - its just next to Nui's 7.5" she looks tiny.

Regarding the pH - it is a relief to understand better the situation. Last evening before I changed the water it was very much a -6.0, a palest yellow. It scared me. How low do I let it go before I need change out some water?

[GoldenFeather]

Posted: Wed-12/08/10
The skin condition will likely be caused by poor water conditions either in the past (their history isn't covered) or right now. Change 25% water daily, preferably with water you've aged overnight in a never-used-for-anything-else container/bucket.

Of all the stuff, the stress coat would be a good additive, in these situations it's always a fight not to do too much. Test everything you can and post the results. What's your tapwater like? Test that too! Can you collect rainwater?

I'm going to begin posting the test results and wait for direction when they're off now that the tests are in – as Jools recommeded early on.

I'm thinking about water and Jools idea to catch it. I don't have an unused container, but may pick up a barrel next time I'm out. For now, in order to take advantage of the rains, I was wondering if I could use those plastic trunks used for storage (with lids)? They've been used for filing, fabric etc. Could I put these to catching for them? Rainwater is incredible. Here its really soft at least to my touch when I've used it personally. If you've recommended it I want to follow through and catch it for them.

RE: Well water. Our well water is chlorinated which I dislike but must be warranted. Our last place wasn't. I didn't mention this early on, but.. When we first brought them in? I had done their first fresh water change w/75% old water. But no conditioner/Stress Coat. The same day I read about chlorine in the water. It didn't seem to bother them, but I got some asap. In the between though, I recalled my last place had no chlorine in it. It had won No. 2 place in a national water quality contest several years ago. So, I felt confident in going and gathering some there and bringing it to Nui and Li'i.

When I did the change... I noticed a fairly quick decline in their activity and responsiveness. I'm wondering if non-chlorinated well water could actually be harmful to them? I don't think there's any harmful bacteria for us in it. Well I lived with it for over 15 yrs. But perhaps for them? I'd like to find out because if it would be better than our tap water I'd like to use it – I still have access to it. There was so much going on at the time too... This was just before I had the bright idea to clean the filter out.

I'm still heating their water with the hot water bags. It's working out fine for both them and I. I've taken Naturalart's and Jool's advices and now blanket them up while still warm and only have to do a hot water bag 1 - 3 times a night The thermometers in and that helps. It's remaining about 74° - 76° during the day then dropping to 70° & - that in the wee early hours of the morn. They seem to like it a little warmer than that I think. Like closer to 80°.. The heater came in and can't use it. Fluval 100 watt. The ad said it was 11" but its like 14'. I don't know if it will be at all effective in the 55 gallon. Should I return it?

Between Jools, Naturalart and MatsP... I can't go wrong. Thanks a googol... GF

[MatsP]

As long as the "new" water is similar to the "old" water in terms of pH [1] and temperature, it will be fine to do very large water changes every day - there are some breeders that want their fish to grow quickly that change 80% of the water twice a day! The more frequent you do your water changes, the more similar the "new" and the "old" water will be [if it's from the same original source], as there is less buildup of "stuff" that changes the water parameters.

Bear in mind also that you have fairly large fish in a small tank. The consequences of that is that the water quality changes quite quickly, and any water parameters directly related to the waste-production of the fish will affect for example pH. The waste production lowers the pH in the tank - how much depends on what the KH level is - this is the "balance" that keeps thep pH stable. If you have low KH, then the water will drop the pH quite quickly.

There is a guideline of "1 inch of fish per gallon of water", so you may say that the tank isn't that much overstocked. However, that applies to small, avergage shape fish. You have one large fish that is quite bulky. A bigger tank will stay more stable.



[1] Technically, pH isn't the most important factor. The important factor is "osmotic pressure", which means the amount of minerals/salts in the water - this is also often called "Total Dissolved Solids" or "TDS". Fish, generally speaking, don't like this to change suddenly. Because in most natural circumstances, pH is directly reflecting the TDS - it is technically possible to come up with combinations that are similar TDS but dramatically different pH, but this only happens if you either have very weird minerals in the ground around your water source [not the ground around the pipe, but aroudn the well, river or lake where the water is originally sourced]. It is unlikely that you have such a situation.

--
Mats

[Jools]

Totally agree with Mats around pH adjustment products, they are fiddly at best.

To tidy up a few Q's (and from a man in the land of soft water). This may be more important if you find your rainwater is good but soft too. Adding coral (collected) isn't a great idea if only because it tends to be sharp and your

Synodontis

doesn't have any scales. If it tries to hide it may scratch, injure and infect.

I suspect in Hawaii most rocks found are igneous, so not going to help with water params (or hinder).

Adding some (as oppossed to changing out with) coral sand (essentially crushed sea shells and corals) to existing substrate is what I do. I have water that dissolves an oyster shell in about a year. For some of my fishes this is ideal, for others I either mix some coral gravel in with the regular inert gravel or I add shells (I like seafood) or put a mesh bag of it in the filter (easier to remove). This has the effect of rather stopping the pH drop below a point (I can get to pH4.5 if I neglect a tank) rather than raise it to a level which 100% coral gravel would tend to do.

Hope that helps.

Jools

PS It's all about no big changes, but lots of good small ones!