oddball among the albino ancistrus

[aqua]

Hello, I have a breeding pair of albino/gold ancistrus. They both have red eyes. The female is a long-fin and has no bristles, while the male is rather chunky and has relatively few for an ancistrus; he doesn't have a face-full like some I've seen. They have spawned at least 4 times. The fourth is still in egg stage or at least the fry haven't appeared. The fry from the third spawn are still quite small, but one of them is the subject of this post. That one is dark. It first appeared to be brown with some markings. Then the head appeared to have dots of white or gold with the rest being checkered or striped. Now, it's spotted all over except for the tail, which is dark with some clear stripes. I have no other fish in that tank, so it's definitely a result of these two albino fish that, as far as I know, "can't" have a fry that isn't albino. Does anybody know what's going on here (genetically speaking), and what this fish would be called, besides an aberration or anomaly? I've searched, but can't find any sign of this ever happening and would like to know if it would breed true to its color if paired with another albino. It's a really beautiful little fish and I hope it survives its little fry life.

[MatsP]

Without actually analyzing the DNA we can't really know what has happened beyond it being a mutation of some sort. And without seeing a photo of the fish itself, it's hard to know if it has a name, and if so what...

Mutations happen all the time. Most of them make no difference, because they happen in areas of the DNA that isn't actively "useful". Imagine you put a few sticks into the sand in an sandpit, and then throw stones at the sandpit (over your shoulder so you don't see where you are aiming). If you hit a stick, it's a mutation that makes a difference. The rest of the time, if you hit the sandpit but not a stick, then it's a "benign mutation". Of course, multiple benign mutations can eventually lead to changes.

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Mats

[aqua]

Thank you. We're trying to get a picture. Unlike its siblings, this one is actually very shy.

[JoePlec]

picture desperately needed here haha.

[apistomaster]

I have never encountered anything in literature or empirical experience where any two animals of the same pure albino strain producing anything but more albinos.
But there are some strains of piebald red eye common Ancistrus in the hobby so perhaps it is possible for what appears to pure albinos exists but are actually heterozygous for other pigmented traits which might allow for such a deviation from the expected?
When and if you can post a photo of this "oddball" maybe it can be explained?

[JoePlec]

Id go along with that apisto but not 1 fish out of hundreds.

[panaque]

Without actually analyzing the DNA we can't really know what has happened beyond it being a mutation of some sort. Mats

The chances of a random mutation happening that 'fixes' a previous mutation that caused the albinism is vansihingly small.
If the parents carried different albinism causing mutations in the same gene then recombination or more likely gene conversion (erm...: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_conversion) could lead to one fully functioning gene. This would also be a very very rare event but not entirely impossible. Your dark individual would be heterozygous so if crossed with a sibling produce 50% brown and 50% albino offspring.

[aqua]

I have a picture, but I can't get it to load on the image site (ImageShack) that I used before to post a picture here. Any suggestions for a site that's easier to use?

[MatsP]

If the image isn't too big, you can just upload it as an attachment.

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Mats

[apistomaster]

Are you sure you are choosing the IMG...IMG selection?
Photobucket is what I use but they are both very similar sites.
One other handy tool I like is the Windows Power Toy's Image Resizer. It gives you several size choices and small usually uploads easily to all the forums and as e-mail attachments I have tried. There are versions for different Windows OS and 32 bit and 64 bit versions. Choose the one that applies. If you are using a Apple product then I have no knowledge about their OS versions and widgets.
I like the fact it retains the original photo and makes a small copy stored in the same folder and is clearly labeled "small".

[Loracidlover]

You could have a go using tinypic, you don't need an account like with photobucket, it just uses a captcha system.

[Mike_Noren]

The chances of a random mutation happening that 'fixes' a previous mutation that caused the albinism is vansihingly small.

That depends on the particular mutation. If it's a simple point mutation then back mutation is quite likely.

[aqua]

I'm not sure what to do to load it on the page. I hit the IMG but don't know what to do next. It doesn't give me a "paste" option when I right click, which is all I know to do and which works when I put the picture on a document.

[MatsP]

When you use the "reply" button on the page.

Below the "submit" button, there is a "upload attachment". You then brows to your file, and click "Add the file". Once you've added the file, you have a couple of options next to the file. If you click "place inline" it will put your photo in the post itself. If not, you'll have a smaller photo that links to the larger photo at the bottom of the...

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Mats

[aqua]

I tried Photo Bucket, too. The problem is that they won't open my Windows Photo Gallery. They open a few of the pictures and documents, but not the ones I'm looking for. I have the ancistrus fry saved in the photo and documents sections, but neither will open on the image sites. I also have pictures of the parents, but they don't come up, either.

[aqua]

This is the best I can do for now; I hope it helps. I'll keep looking for the pictures of the parents. They didn't come up this time, but I'll find them and post them later.

[apistomaster]

It does not make any sense to me how your albino parents could produce a normally pigmented fry.
There is a similar mysterious instances of a few fry in a group of Apistogramma agassizi "Fire Red" where the poster claims to have 3-4 fry in a brood which appear to have pink eyes and lack of pigment on www.apistogramma.com.
No photos and the fry are still in their late larval free swimming stage. If true it is also difficult to explain.

I do know that Mendelian Genetics is being influenced by the rising science of epigentics and things seem to be getting more complex than they used to be. More on epigenetics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

[MatsP]

It certainly looks like a "normal" fry. I have a strong feeling this is a natural mutation - it's just mutated back. I'm pretty sure it only takes a single gene to make a fish albino - just the "right" gene [and not necessarily the same one all the time]. Many other genetic changes aren't so easy for the fish to live with - a single gene gone wrong in the production of haemoglobin would be immediately fatal, and the same applies to many other things in the body of a fish.

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Mats

[JoePlec]

Its a beautiful thing that has happened. I would grow him/her on and breed it and see what happens next time.

[aqua]

Thank you for all your replies. We've just discovered another dark one among the latest spawn. It looks different from how the older one looked when it was that size. The older one had clear markings that change over time while this one is just dark all over and is much more difficult to see when it's on the dark sand.

[Firestorming]

Fingers crossed you can raise both the "mutations" (it seems odd calling the usual colouration a mutation) and cross them to see what happens. It would be an interesting long term thread on here with how it all works out.

[LeeRoy]

I think that this would be something that I would, raise them out to see what they look like when grown.

LeeRoy

[Aquafinatic]

Hey guys!
I just discovered this post, and I think I have something to report, that is going to add to this discussion.

Several weeks ago, I had (2) males and several female ancistrus in a 65-gallon tank, while I was doing some
rearranging of tanks. ALL of those ancistrus/bushynose were gold with red eyes. I had been told that they
were albinos, and I believed that they were. Prior to putting those fish into that tank, some of them had spawned,
and all of the fry had come out looking like their parents: gold with red eyes. Before I finished my project,
two batches of fry showed up in that tank. In one cave I saw the usual gold-colored fry. In the other tank, I saw
dark brown fry. Dozens of dark brown fry.

Not only am I sure that there were no brown-colored fish in that tank, I can tell you that I had no brown-colored
Ancistrus in my house!

The weeks went by, and I only discussed this with two people. I didn't know what to think, and partially because of
the large number of adults in the tank, I didn't try to draw any conclusions. So here is Chapter Two.

About (3) weeks ago, I took the father of the dark brown fry, and put him into a small tank, with just one of the
females from that previous, larger tank. They spawned, and the fry lost their egg sacs a few days ago. Guess what?
ALL OF THE FRY ARE DARK BROWN! I still don't get it, but I figured I should chime in here, since this seems to fit
right in with this discussion. At least now I know, for certain, that I wasn't dreaming, and that there wasn't a
"mystery" female in that big tank that I didn't know about.

I'd be interested to hear any explanations.

Cheers!

[MatsP]

There have been reports of "different type of albinism", which does indeed make sense. Let's say there are 5 steps in the bio-chemical process to make the brown colour for the fishs's skin. Now, if we disrupt the DNA somewhere in the "right" place, it will break this process. So there are five different places where you CAN break this chain of processing - and ANY of those five places will make it go wrong.

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Mats

[apistomaster]

Moderator, Barbie, told me when she had a long fin albino breed with a short fin albino, all or many of the fry had normal color. This was over 5 years ago.