Ancistrus cf. cirrhosus Fry Illness -- Help Please!

[Starsplitter7]

I hope I am in the right place for this question.

My Ancistrus cf. cirrhosus started spawning in July. I do not intend to breed my fish; they did this on their own. I love my Bristlenoses, so I am thrilled, and moved the fry to a 10 gallon grow-out tank that I had been using as a quarantine tank, so it was cycled. The fish in the Q-tank were in there for R&R, not an illness. I moved 66 fry (about 10 days after they hatched), and another 10 or so stayed in the original tank with the parents. I have lost all the fry from the parent tank, except one, which is very healthy and 1.5 inches at this time. I have about 30 of the original clutch.

The second clutch appeared around the 25th of September with about 30 hatched fry. Those fry are about ½-¾ inch at this time. The original fry are between 1-1.5 inches.

The adult tank contains 3 males and 1 female grew, which grew up in a 20 gallon with 2 peaceful Skunk loaches, Black Neons and a 1.5 inch Golden Killie. The Bristlenoses and Skunks have lived together over 2 years, and the rest were added in the last 3 months after quarantine. There are no behavioral problems. None of the fish in the adult tank are affected at this time. The adults have been unaffected.

All fry except one are in the 10 gallon grow out tank. Some of the older fry are spread out among my other tanks to reduce the stress on a ten-gallon tank. Most of those fry are doing just fine. I have bogwood in all my tanks for the Bristlenoses and their fry to munch on. The wood has been in there for years, and it was boiled before it ever went into the water.

1. Water parameters
This week I had been gone for four days and the readings (BEFORE) were as follows:
a) Temperature range = 80
b) pH = 6.7
e)Ammonia = 0
Nitrate = 20
Nitrite = .25 (Surprise. I haven't had nitrite in my tanks for years.)
f) Water change frequency Normally 50 % every other day. Water conditioner = Prime
c) GH = Not available
d) KH = Not available
TDS Before: 321

After a 50 % water change today (AFTER):
a) Temperature range = 80
b) pH = 7.2 (Water in Fl is very basic, and my tank water is acidic.)
e) Ammonia = 0-.25 (API test gives a false positive when used with Prime.)
Nitrate = 10
Nitrite = 0
f) Water change frequency 50 % every other day. Water Conditioner = Prime
c) GH = Not available
d) KH = Not available
TDS Before: 321 (TDS of filtered tap water: 300)
TDS After: 317

2. Tank set up
a) Size = 10 gallons
b) Substrate = none
c) Filtration. = sponge filter and aquaclear filter for a 10 gallon.
d) Furnishings Plastic plants, coconut cave, piece of bog wood, smooth river rock
e) Other tank mates = 3, 1” Botia striata and 1, 1” Yoyo loach (in quarantine with no signs of ill health. The BN were ill before the loaches arrived.)
f) How long has it been set-up? July 2010. Cycled before that.
g) When was the last new fish added? 2 weeks ago (the loaches, but the BNs have had this problem about two months.)
h) Foods used and frequency? Washed and Blanched zucchini (2-3 X a week) and Hikari algae wafers several times a day when the previous food is gone. The loaches receive flake and 2 shrimp pellets every day and blood worms (once a week).

3. Symptoms / Problem description
White patch near the eyes appears, eventually turns into an abscess and the fish dies within about a week. Does not affect other fish, only the Bristlenose fry. Usually after they reach more than 1”.

Before I realized that there was problem, I distributed Bristlenose fry to other tanks to reduce their numbers in the 10-gallon grow out tank. Most of these do not develop the illness, but a couple do (I believe the problem stems from the tank water not being clean enough for the number of the fry). No other fish species develop this problem, and the adults do not have this problem.

4. Action taken (if any)
I tried a clean, cycled quarantine tank with nothing but clean water. The Bristlenoses died in a couple days. I tried with Maracyn 1, and they died within 5 days.

5. Medications used (if any)
Maracyn 1 – tried in a separate quarantine tank. The Bristlenoses I tried with the Maracyn all died by the fifth day.

I have a separate Q-tank I can use for treatment, if you have a treatment recommendation I should try for the fry that are showing symptoms. Also any suggestions to keep this problem at bay?

Right now I have no fish with symptoms, so I have no pictures. I will submit a picture when there is another problem.

Thank you so much for your help and advice.

[MatsP]

2. Tank set up
a) Size = 10 gallons
b) Substrate = none

There's your problem! Add some sand, gravel or whatever, and I guarantee that your fish will survive much better.

--
Mats

[Starsplitter7]

I am not sure this is the case. The parent tank and the Q tank both have sand and/or gravel, and the disease was present in those tanks. I can certainly add sand to the fry tank and see if that helps them out. Or move them to the Q tank where there's sand already. That may be a lot easier. I was under the impression that bare bottom would be much easier to clean. Is it that they are moving around in the muck and getting sick? I could create a planted growout tank for them with sand (like their parents' tank).

[MatsP]

It is a common observation that bare-bottom tanks are not good for the fry of Loricariidae. I can't explain why, but it's certainly an observation by several breeders. Further than that, I can't really suggest any cause for abcess around the eyes.

--
Mats

[Starsplitter7]

Thank you so much. I will try the sand bottom and see if that works better. The parents' tank was sand, and I had problems there too, but maybe if I put them in a sand tank, then they may do better and I will lose fewer fish.

I will try that. Thanks.

[Starsplitter7]

I spent two hours moving most of my Bristlenose fry to their new tank (my 3-month olds and my 1 month olds). I transformed my quarantine tank with sand and gravel from established tanks. I moved water sprite from my other tanks, and heavily planted the quarantine tank. I added smooth river rocks, a cycled sponge filter, two cycled HOB filters, and an aged piece of bog wood from the parent tank. The fry were very excited about the bogwood. I added the loaches from their nursery tank, and the loaches look pretty happy too. And I put in part of my breeding population of cherry shrimp. The loaches will be moved to the loach tank, when they are older, so they do not finish off the shrimp.

As a bonus, my albino bristlenoses also produced their first fry this week. They are about a week old, so they will be moved into the new grow out tank as soon as I can catch them. So I have three spawns of Bristlenoses right now. In five years of fish keeping I have never had egg layer fry, and now I have three "litters".

The picture shows the BN dad and a fry from the July spawn in the adult tank.

[Starsplitter7]

Here's the Albino Bristlenose dad in his caving fanning eggs and fry. You can see the adult tank has sand and is planted.

[Starsplitter7]

Here's a picture of the new nursey. I have marked the BNs on the picture, but there are at least 10 more BN visible and 2 more shrimp.

[Starsplitter7]

This is a picture of the old Quarantine tank. I clean it every other day. I will move all inhabitants to the new nursery as soon as I catch them.

[Starsplitter7]

In the new planted nursery tank. A month old BN and an adult Cherry Shrimp.

[PeterUK]

2. Tank set up
a) Size = 10 gallons
b) Substrate = none

There's your problem! Add some sand, gravel or whatever, and I guarantee that your fish will survive much better.

--
Mats

I have never ever used any sort of substrate with my BN's. I have sold hundreds and still have more juv's and fry than I know what to do with so I definately dispute this !

Filtration. = sponge filter and aquaclear filter for a 10 gallon.

I have 2 x 14 gallon tanks that I use for breeding BN's. These are an adult trio normal brown and a pair of albino's.
Both tanks have the adults and 100+ juv's and fry of several sizes
In both tanks I use a 380L (83.6 gallon) sponge filter and the air is REALLY pumped through and i have recently added a double bio sponge type filter as well . Like one of THESE.

IMHO using a 10 gallon filter in a 10 gallon tank is just not worth the bother or maybe it is if you are keeping 1 or 2 guppies but NOT fish that produce such a large amount of waste as BN.

[Starsplitter7]

I have two filters plus the sponge filter. I agree, if I had a larger filter I would be using it -- all my tanks are double or more filtered (I have multiple filters on every tank as a safeguard). I wasn't expecting my BNs to breed, so I have to make due with what I have. I think I must have a water quality issue.

What kind of loses do you have with your fry?

What kind of pump are you using to push the air in the sponge filter?

I had the fry in the tank with the adults, but I was told by my fish club and a forum to move the fry from the adult tank. There was concern there wouldn't be enough food for the fry, especially since the adult tanks have other species of fish.

Tomorrow I will move my male albino BN, with his cave and fry to the fry growout tank.

[PeterUK]

What kind of loses do you have with your fry?

I dont have loses.
So far this year I have sold 600 juvs and have (at a guess) 250-300 fry at the moment and have never seen a dead one yet. That is not to say that I havent had any, its just that I have never seen any.

What kind of pump are you using to push the air in the sponge filter?

I use a Hockney koi 65 to run all of my entire fish shed (65 litre per minute)

I had the fry in the tank with the adults, but I was told by my fish club and a forum to move the fry from the adult tank. There was concern there wouldn't be enough food for the fry, especially since the adult tanks have other species of fish.

I think it depends on what other species of fish are in the tank.
I keep all of the fry and juvs of all sizes with the parents until I net them out to be sold.
Not enough food for the fry ?
What muppet told you that
If there is not enough food, just add more until there is
I cut a 7 - 8 inch Courgette (Zucchini) in half lengthwise, stick a spoon in at either end to hold it down and drop it in the tank and replace when gone (usually every other day) no blanching or other such stuff, just cut it up and let them munch away, after all how many blanched veg do the find in the wild ?
I also drop in a few bloodworm pellets and a sprinkle of tetra prime.

Tomorrow I will move my male albino BN, with his cave and fry to the fry growout tank.

Why ? For what reason ?
The male will protect them from most fish and I would bet my hard earned money that the loaches will not touch them.
Stop fussing and leave them to get on with it.



BN tanks are the 3rd and 4th from the left

[PlecoCrazy]

2. Tank set up
a) Size = 10 gallons
b) Substrate = none

There's your problem! Add some sand, gravel or whatever, and I guarantee that your fish will survive much better.

--
Mats

I had a friend who bred some and had the exact same problem. Our hindsight led us to believe lack of substrate was the problem.

[Starsplitter7]

In my common BN tank, they parents live with skunk loaches, black neon tetras and a killie. I moved the male and the cave when I found the killie swimming around the tank with the clutch of eggs in his mouth. I removed the eggs from his mouth, moved the male and the eggs to the growout tank. He managed to hatch those eggs. Good boy.

I moved the second male when I found the eggs outside his cave obviously removed by one of his tank mates. This is a large community tank with dwarf loaches, queen loaches, cories, rubberlips, ghost catfish, mollies, . . .

I think my fish club member told me to move the fish, because even though I give them zucchini, many of the fry aren't on the zucchini. They are on the glass. Skunks and killies have been known to be aggressive. I didn't intend for my fish to breed, so this has all caught me by surprise.

Once the egss have been removed from the cave, I figure if I do not intervene, the eggs are lost. When I moved the albino male with his cave and eggs, he left the cave. But he returned 10 minutes later and has been caring for the eggs, so I am not worried.

I think because I am a beginning keeper, and do not have a breeding set up, nor the money for a breeding set up, this leaves me without the resources to care for the fry properly, which is leading to my losses. In my local area the economy has collapsed and almost all independent fish stores are closed, so I have no venue to sell my fish. I can sell a few bags of fish monthly at my fish meeting, but I can't do large scale sales to justify a breeding set up. I have to make due with what I have. I was hoping to make my set up better so that I am able to minimalize my losses.

[Starsplitter7]

I just wanted to thank everyone for your help. Since I moved my fry to planted tanks, my fish have been doing much better. Now my regular BN and my albinos are breeding regularly every other month, so I have lots of fry, and they are happy and healthy.

Thank you.