RTC problems

[bowhunter28]

I just got a new RTC and I am having some issues with him. He is in a tank by himself. Water parameters are as follows: Ammonia-0 Nitrite-0 Nitrate-20 Ph-8.2

He is 2-3 inches long. He ate well when he first got here and now he is not eating at all. Also he keeps rubbing himself against the rocks just like fish do when there is a high ammonia problem. Is it my high Ph that is making him behave this way? I purchased some seachem neutral regulator that is supposed to bring the ph to 7. However, all it has done is make the water cloudy.

Does anybody have any Ideas or suggestions of what to do? I have kept many cichlids that require a ph close to 7 in my regular 8.2 ph without problems. Are RTCs that sensitive to high Ph? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[MatsP]

I'm fairly sure that high pH in itself isn't a huge a problem. However, as a large predatory fish, it can produce sudden bursts of ammonia - and higher pH makes ammonia more toxic.

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Mats

[wrasse]

If your water is hard its not easy to alter the PH... it just buffers back to where it was before. Like you, I would be happier with a more neutral PH. You might ask the shop where you bought it what their water parameters are.

The cloudy water doesn't sound right. Might it be a bacterial bloom? Big water change, lots of aeration and flow and maybe don't feed for several days.

[MatsP]

I suspect the "cloudy water" is because the buffer contains phosphate, which is a nutrient for algae (or possibly bacteria).

So, pH = 8.2 is a clear indication of hard water.
I'm not sure where in Indiana Bowhunter28 is from, but according to this site:
http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/characteri ... l#Hardness
water in Indiana is generally hard (I'm going by the text, as I'm not 100% sure where Indiana is on that map - I think it's right where the red blotch is south east from Lake Michigan)

As Wrasse says, pH adjustment in hard water is hard (no pun intended). The only really good way to do pH adjustment in hard water is to remove the hardness. Further, you shouldn't use a regular tap-water water softener, as that introduces salt into the water, which is a more critical factor for the fish.

Here's where it gets complicated. In MOST waters, there is a pretty straight-forward relationship between hardness and pH. It is technically possible to have water that is soft, but has high pH, but it's fairly rare to find this in nature. It is very common to find high pH in hard water, and extremely rare to find low pH in hard water. Further, hardness and TDS (total dissolved solids - the mineral/ion content in the water) are also relatively closely related in most places - it is rare to find soft water with high TDS, and usually high TDS is equivalent to hard water. The dissolved solids value affects the osmotic balance - the fish's tendency to absorb/release water. All fish are adaptable within a range, but if you go too far outside their natural range, they will not feel happy.

Now, this is where pH buffers actually make things worse - pH buffers are essentially a salt that has a pH stabilizing effect - it keeps the pH at a certain level (for example, Calcium carbonate, which is what makes your water hard will pull the pH to 8.5 or so). So, whilst the buffer will adjust the pH, it won't make the fish feel happier unless it ALSO wants higher pH - this would typically be the case for those who live in soft water areas and keep fish from African rift lakes which have a high pH and relatively hard water. These fish definitely do appreciate a good bit of minerals in the water, and won't like a pH 6.5 soft water that you often get in softer water areas.

So, my opinion is that you either get yourself a source of soft water, such as an RO system, or you leave the pH were it is currently at. I'm also of the opinion that the pH is not your actual problem. The fish may be suffering from parasites, or some other problem, but pH isn't the main problem.

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Mats

[bowhunter28]

Wow, thank you for the responses. The cloudiness is just from the powder buffer that I put in. I am certain that it is not a bacterial bloom.

So basically I am fighting a losing battle with trying to change my ph. I have had other south american cichlids adjust to higher ph but wasnt sure if that is what I should just try to let the RTC adjust to him.

Just to clarify, I should just leave my Ph a lone and see if he adjusts? Also if there are possible parasites, should I start medicating with some melafix? Or something different?

Thank You for the help guys!

[MatsP]

The best type of medication for parasites would be an antihelmithic compound, such as Metronidazole, Praziquantel, Flubendazole and others. There are some off-the-shelf medications with these compounds in them, and these compounds are really low impact on the fish, but is effective on the parasites.

I don't think melafix is effective in this case [I've never used Melafix - I know a lot of people think it's great, but in my opinion it is a fairly mild medication, which works well for illness that is best cured with more/bigger water changes and some general TLC, and not effective against "real" problems where you need "strong stuff"]

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Mats

[mickey3]

Have you looked really close for any signs of ich? Sometimes it's not so obvious. The fish can show the symptoms you are describing before the white spots appear. What is the water temp? Does the fish hyperventilate? Does it have any fin or barbel deterioration? The pH is pushing the limits a bit but should be ok. Since the fish is not eating, Praziquantel would be a good choice if it is a parasitic worm and not ich. Praxiquantel is well tolerated by redtails. A good praziquantel product is Prazipro by Hikari. Rid-ich Plus by Kordon works safely on RTCs and is good for treating ich as well as some other external parasites. Neither of the above products mentioned interfere with the biological filter. Make sure you have good aeration. Also once again hard water is not optimal but RTCs adapt without difficulty in most cases. Also get the temp up gradually to at least 82F to speed up the ich cycle and stimulate the fishes appetite. Like Mats said avoid the Melafix. In this situation it is not strong enough. I would start with Rid-Ich plus.

[bowhunter28]

He actually had some fin damage when I got him and has healed nicely. I didnt feed him for a couple days and he just accepted some blood worms. I think he is just having some trouble adjusting to the hard water. If the problem continues or arises again I will think about some treatment, but for right now I think things are looking up for the little guy.

[MatsP]

I would definitely check with the shop to see if they have different water in the shop vs. what you get out of your tap. Many shops do run tanks with regular tap-water, but some don't, and they will use RO (Reverse Osmosis) water in their tanks, which means the tank is soft water. I personally feel that a shop using RO water should make this very clear to the customer if the regular tap-water is hard, as it can certainly shock the fish if you go straight from soft to hard (or other way around).

If the shop is running regular tap-water in their tanks, then you need to look for another source of the problem.

Also bear in mind that these fish are gluttons that will eat a huge meal one day, and then fast for a couple of days - when they are mature, they will feed once or maybe twice a week.

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Mats