After success with Ancistrus, what next???

[Aquafinatic]

Hello Everyone!
A little more than one year ago, I began breeding Ancistrus, (Albino L144). That has been going well. I've also been raising breeding groups of the longfin variety and a calico variety, and those are close to breeding age/size.

Now I would like to pursue keeping and breeding of a slightly more challenging species, so I'm asking for suggestions. If it can work out, I would like to shoot for the following traits, IF POSSIBLE, in my next species:

>>I'm not interested in raising the Common Pl*cos that my LFS has, in abundance. I don't know their scientific name, but I think you'll all know which ones I'm talking about.

>>If possible, I would prefer a 'smaller' species. I realize that 'smaller' is a relative term.

>>My preference is that no tank bigger than a 20-gallon-long would be required. That size of tank equates to approx. 76 liters. The dimensions are approx. 30" x 12" x 12", or approx. 76cm x 31 cm x 31cm.

>>I have RO water available, and my well water is of good quality, hard, with a ph of 7.9 to 8.0. I can blend the two, if needed, or use RO water and add a commercial buffer product to it, if that would be required.

>>If it's not asking too much, I would be extra pleased if the species that I pursue could have some cool-looking pattern or markings on it.

>>Although I don't mind a challenge, since this would be my second species, I'm hoping for one that would not be OVERLY-difficult to keep and breed.

>>Finally, I'm prepared to lay out some cash for the intial fry/breeding stock/breeders, but I'd prefer to not have to sell my home, in order to raise the money to buy these fish.

If any of you can suggest a species that fits these criteria, I would surely appreciate your recommendation(s). I hope my expectations aren't unreasonable. Thank you, in advance.

Cheers, everyone!
Aquafinatic

[MatsP]

There are several good species to move onto - all of which are relatively good match for your other criteria.

Hypancistrus

,

Peckoltia

,

Dekeyseria

. These are relatively frequently bred by other people in the hobby.

In my own experience, the

Sturisoma

and

Farlowella

are also good candidates.

--
Mats

[racoll]

Also depends on what you can get hold of.

No point getting your heart set on something, only to find out it is unobtainable.

Do a few tours of your local shops, and make a list of available species you might like to breed.

We can then tell you which is your best bet.

[Linus_Cello]

My impression from the following thread is that L333 may be a good next step. Larry Waybright seems to breed them like rabbits (and L134s, which may be the next step after L333). Contact him, he may have some (and it's easier to breed captive raised plecs than wild caught). I'm thinking of getting some L333 myself (anyone know if they're compatible with L114s? Sorry to hijack the thread).

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =5&t=29601

Edit: I mispelled Larry's last name. He's now responded to the topic. Larry had some L-333 for sale earlier this spring. He may still have some; he mail-orders them to you from Washington state, not too far from WY.

[2wheelsx2]

I think the Hypans would be next step in difficulty. Some people locally have bred L201 and L066 and of course L46, but no one has successfully bred L134 (Pekoltia) successfully that I know of. I got some L333 and L066 F1's I'm itching to try out as they grow out.

[MatsP]

[quote="2wheelsx2"no one has successfully bred L134 (Pekoltia) successfully that I know of.[/quote]
You mean locally to you, as there are several different breeders here on the forum, and they aren't terribly hard to find F1's of. Several other

Peckoltia

species have also been bred.

--
Mats

[2wheelsx2]

no one has successfully bred L134 (Pekoltia) successfully that I know of.

You mean locally to you, as there are several different breeders here on the forum, and they aren't terribly hard to find F1's of. Several other

Peckoltia

species have also been bred.

--
Mats

Oh sorry, I just realized I ran on the sentence and assumed everyone would read the implied local. Yes, I know that are bred all over the place, but no one has bred them locally here. Whereas with the Hypans, even people who have not bred Ancistrus have bred them. As a matter of fact, I have a tiny L201 which I don't remember buying, so I suspect that it grew up in my 125 gallon, but of course I can't confirm it, as I never observed a spawning or eggs.

[Mod edit: fix broken quote --Mats]

[Aquafinatic]

Also depends on what you can get hold of.

No point getting your heart set on something, only to find out it is unobtainable.

Do a few tours of your local shops, and make a list of available species you might like to breed.

We can then tell you which is your best bet.

Hi,

Your suggestion seems like a good approach. However... in the LFS's that are within driving distance from my home, all I ever see are the "common plecs", a couple varieties of the most common Ancistrus, and OCCASIONALLY an "odd" pleco here or there. With regard to those, I've only seen single specimens, and the LFS employees don't seem to be able to make a definite identification of the species.

SO -- I was thinking that I'd have to purchase breeding stock from either AquaBid, or from a fellow Planet Catfish member, who is perhaps in my half of the world...

[MatsP]

SO -- I was thinking that I'd have to purchase breeding stock from either AquaBid, or from a fellow Planet Catfish member, who is perhaps in my half of the world...

So, even so, you probably want to figure out what you can get first, then decide from there which ones are the best choices.

--
Mats

[Aquafinatic]

First, many thanks, you guys, for those suggestions. I had been hoping that there would be a few options for me. I have to admit, I'm pretty excited to try another species.

I read your responses carefully, then used the P.C. site to look up all of the L-numbers that were mentioned in your responses. I studied the photos. (Remember that I'm still rather "new" to Loricariids.) So I'm learning.

And by the way, Mats, that was extremely helpful how I could put my cursor on the names that you suggested, and immediately see an image of the fish. What a great feature.

I have two thoughts/questions, now. First is, I've taken the point that I should see what is available to me, first, even if it IS via the web, as opposed to a local fish shop. So I'll do that next.

But I have a question. In Mats' first response, he made (5) possible recommendations. I believe those names that he gave are GENUS names. Then, when other posters recommended certain L-numbers, I looked those up. They all seemed to be "members" of one of the genus that Mats had recommended. I *think* those L-number suggestions are the SPECIES names. I hope I'm understanding this correctly.

Okay - so here is my question. Let's say that Mats and the others suggest for me to puruse the Hypancistrus genus next. My question is: AS A GENERAL RULE, would the various species, within that genus, be of similar difficulty with one another, for keeping and breeding?

Thank you again, guys. I appreciate it.
(I may not respond for several days, as I'm going on holiday.)

[2wheelsx2]

Okay - so here is my question. Let's say that Mats and the others suggest for me to puruse the Hypancistrus genus next. My question is: AS A GENERAL RULE, would the various species, within that genus, be of similar difficulty with one another, for keeping and breeding?

The answer is that generally speaking, the husbandry and breeding requirements are very similar, but it's best to read up on that particular species individually, as there are some notable exceptions for each case.

[MatsP]

Like Gary (2wheelsx2) says, the keeping of fishes in a genus are nearly always the same to keep - there are slight variations in the ideal temperature and ideal water conditions, but when it comes to feeding and other requirements, they are nearly always the same. There are exceptions in some species in some genus, but those are exceptions rather than the common case.

When it comes to "how hard to breed", there is a variation even within a genus. It may be that they are harder to trigger into breeding, or we just don't know the "recipe".

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

I think the Hypans would be next step in difficulty. Some people locally have bred L201 and L066 and of course L46, but no one has successfully bred L134 (Pekoltia) successfully that I know of. I got some L333 and L066 F1's I'm itching to try out as they grow out.

By now you know that re: L134 statement was in error.
I have raised about 1000 L134 so far and this year I bred some of my oldest F1's so i now have some 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 inch F2 L134's. Not good photos but I took these shots of a scene in my L134 breeding tank a couple months ago.


These are fish I have for sale which are 2-1/2 to 2-3/4 inches F1 L134.



As to where to go from common Ancistrus? There are several ways to go.
Some of the beautiful black water Ancistrus are quite challenging.
You could try Sturisoma or the L10a Red Lizard Hemiloricaria.
Not all Hypancistrus are equal.
Some are easily bred and very prolific like L333 and L66. Water chemistry is not very important.
H. contradens seems to be another easy species which is quite attractive.
L260 and H. zebra are of about equal level of difficulty, imo and tend to produce few fry per spawn and are generally intolerant of poor water quality and prefer soft and slightly acid water although some breeders do fine with them using only tap water.

L134 seem easy to breed to me but that is not necessarily true in general.
However, L134 are now being bred in large numbers by breeders around the world.
I disagree and paraphrasing what MatsP said that within a genus breeding is
similar. It is true as to method but as to difficulty. Some Ancistrus are very difficult to breed. Some Hypancistrus are very easy while others are rather challenging. What is true is that how they breed is fairly constant within the genus but how easy or hard varies widely.

[2wheelsx2]

Sorry Larry, I knew you and many others have bred L134's (even in Canada), but no one locally that I have met (as corrected by MatsP).

[racoll]

While

Hypancistrus

might seem like an attractive proposition, be aware of a few issues:

1.

Hypancistrus

are banned from export from Brazil (who used to supply most of the species). This means that groups of mature adults are hard to come by now. You may be able get F1, but you will have to wait a lot longer to get the group mature enough to breed.

2. When buying F1s from a breeder, bear in mind that if you want to set up your own breeding project with them, they will all likely be brother and sister. You really want to avoid inbreeding as much as possible, so try to buy stock from different sources.

If you are in any way impatient, I would go for a group of large, wild caught

Peckoltia

spp., as these are still exported, and should be relatively breedable, hopefully within a reasonable time-frame.

Something like

Hemiancistrus guahiborum

might be worth a try too, and these can be picked up pretty cheaply. Not sure how easy they are to breed though.

[apistomaster]

I breed wild plecos which are theoretically unrelated in colonies of 3 males to 4 or 5 females. I generally have several broods from different parents at any given time. I raise them in large aggregations from these multiple parents who do not always breed with the same male. A great deal of heterozgousity(is this a word?) is maintained and by the time they are sold, the fish are so close to the same size I have no way of knowing which fish came from which parental combination. This is very different from inbreeding the progeny of a single pair so in my opinion, the risk of inbreeding depression is really quite low when using the progeny of unrelated wild fish. I would not expect any inbreeding problems to arise until the progeny became homogenized but by my mental calculations, based on a 2 year period minimum between generations, it would take a very long time to become a genetically homogenous population. More than enough time to introduce new wild stock to keep the genetic differences high enough to avoid noticeable problems related to inbreeding.

[racoll]

A great deal of heterozgousity(is this a word?)

Yes, this is the correct term, but it's spelt "heterozygosity".

I don't think there is any problem with your breeding arrangement Larry, but I think some breeders are not as diligent as you in this regard, and will sell definite siblings to other would-be breeders who will then breed straight off with these brothers and sisters.

Not ideal for long-term maintenance of these species in the hobby, especially with the future of the wild stocks hanging in the balance.

[Aquafinatic]

Wow gentlemen -- what a great discussion!

I just returned home from the Great State of Arkansas, and I'm eager to study your responses.

I want to thank all of you, again, for these weighty and thoughtful responses. I get all excited reading these, and take in the information like a thirsty sponge. It is not an exaggeration for me to say that being able to have these kinds of discussions, and access to this valuable information -- adds another dimension to this hobby for me. I tend to become "stale", or bored with doing the same thing for a long period of time, but approaching this hobby with fresh challenges, with the help of Planet Catfish and all of you, keeps everything exciting for me.

Cheers to all!
p.s. If I don't weigh in for a period of time, I'm having a surgery tomorrow, so don't know when I'll be able to use the computer.

[huffmagx]

I am reading these posts intently and learning a lot!! BTW those L134's are FANTASTIC!!! Beautiful fish!

[apistomaster]

I am reading these posts intently and learning a lot!! BTW those L134's are FANTASTIC!!! Beautiful fish!

And I would be glad to sell you some. It is already cooling down and if fall comes early I will not be able to ship as late in the season as I usually can.
6/$200 plus a flat rate of $45 for Express mail and materials.
I buy boxes of the highest quality which cost me $13.50 each.
The fish will be about 2-3/4 inches and old enough to spawn by next spring.(~2 years old)
These older fish which end up being held over the winter will be sexable and young breeding size/age. I will be selling pairs for a much higher price next year but I will also have some younger fish a year old at 6 for $200 to $225 next year depending on supply and demand.

[huffmagx]

I am reading these posts intently and learning a lot!! BTW those L134's are FANTASTIC!!! Beautiful fish!

And I would be glad to sell you some. It is already cooling down and if fall comes early I will not be able to ship as late in the season as I usually can.
6/$200 plus a flat rate of $45 for Express mail and materials.
I buy boxes of the highest quality which cost me $13.50 each.
The fish will be about 2-3/4 inches and old enough to spawn by next spring.(~2 years old)
These older fish which end up being held over the winter will be sexable and young breeding size/age. I will be selling pairs for a much higher price next year but I will also have some younger fish a year old at 6 for $200 to $225 next year depending on supply and demand.

You know I may just have to take you up on that after I figure out what I can keep with what I already have of course... I have another post on here somewhere with some really good advice and I think I am starting to catch on a bit more.

My issue is a finite number of tanks and an infinite love of the fishes!! Ain't it always the case!! I would get another tank but I don't think I'd be allowed in the house with "just one more" so I need to stick with what I have for now.

I currently have reg. albino bristle noses , L201's and LO66 . I had some L333s but lost them due to a heater malfunction - yeah that was not a good day. So not sure where these little beauties would fit into that equation?

What could I add to that mix? Tanks are fairly large with the smallest being 29 gals and all planted.

[apistomaster]

Well, in this 75 gal tank I have 8 L134, 7 Hypancistrus contradens, an adult trio of albino long fin common Ancistrus and a few short fin normal and one sf albino BN.
Oh an 2 Corydoras sterbai that escaped being caught when I shipped out about 16 breeders. Then I have a dozen Green Neons and a dozen wild caught Red Phantom Tetras.
I have 14 F1 wild Royal Blue X wild female semi-Royal juveniles in the tank. They will be in there about 2 months. By then I will have to swap out the 6 adult Alequer Discus in my 125 gal and move the F1 Blues to the 125 to complete their grow out phase to young adults.
Both of these tanks have a 950 gph wet/dry filter and an Eheim Clasic #2217 canister filter.
My 125 gal wild Alenquer Red Discus tank has 10 L134's and one large male Bushy Nose for algae duties. That is all I have in that tank.
I have kept L134 with L333, L066 and a single Gold nugget back when I had 10 adult Heckel Discus. Of all the small species of plecos I have or have had, the L134 are the best show type of small plecos. They are shy like other plecos but not nearly as much. Food brings them out. Another technique in a planted show tank that works well is to provide natural stone caves, small pieces of drift wood or even some of the small caves mad of synthetics. Roughly line them up along the front 1/3 line back from the front so they are in the back of the foreground. When you have a group of L134 they will choose adjacent caves where they can keep an eye on each other and between that quirk of their behavior and the fact they will be where most sinking food land first like frozen blood worms or earth worm stick they are not very hesitant to come out an compete with each other and other fish to get their share of the food. L134 are my favorite species. I like them more than any Hypancistrus including my H. zebras and L260
I will be wanting to sell my 6 large wild Red Alenquer Discus next Spring in case anyone is interested. My wild red Alenquer Discus:



I will be buying a couple top of the line wild Royal Blue males to breed with a couple of my F1 Blue females to open up two less related lines and I will have a few sibling F1 Blue pairs. But over time, I will be able to minimize the hazards associated with inbreeding. I quit raising Domestic forms of Discus about 4 years ago. I began breeding wild Discus before there were any fancy domestics available commercially. I am tired of the gaudy Domestic strains and am returning to my roots in my old age by returning to breeding wild or nearly wild Blue/Royal Blue Discus. Suffer my young f1 Blues.





[IMG]http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/ ... 1Blue3.jpg[/IMG

[huffmagx]

Just stunning fish Larry! You have quite the collection to be admired.

[apistomaster]

Thank you. These are only the fish in my 2 largest tanks which I try to keep looking at least a little like my show tanks.
I have 20 longs, 29h and 40 gal breeders where I raise all my Plecos and Apistogramma.
My dormant Killiefish bug is acting up so I acquired some pairs of Simpsonichthys boitonei, my favorite killy and S. zonatus,. both are small Brazilian annuals.
I also have some African annuals, Nothobranchius patrizii. Killies and Apistogramma are kind of my hobby part of fish keeping. Everything else is organized more for maximum production of fish. I am rebuilding my breeding colony of Corydoras hastatus and am going to try to also raise Yellow Shrimp with them. In the past I had Cherry Shrimp in my C. hastatus breeding colony. I have begun a new catfish project. I am raising a group of L10a Red Whiptails and they should be able to begin producing by next spring. They are disliked by some because they have mysterious origins but it hard not to like a pretty and unusual Loricaridid which only reaches about 4 inches and are very good to have in peaceful community tanks, planted or otherwise.
But since I took up the goal of breeding small, pretty pleco species I have found most are able to coexist in a display tank without problems. I don't have any experience with the larger or rather, midsized pretty species like L200 and l128 except the one gold nugget I had. Others will tell you this and I will just urge you to consider keeping fewer species like only 2 in a display tank but keep them in groups of 5 or 7. That way you will eventually obtain breeders but until then, a tank with 2 groups of the small species is actually much more interesting than simply collecting many one of's. They all work out well in a planted or rock and wood community tanks with some Tetras and maybe a trio or two SA Dwarf Cichlids like one of the Apistogramma species and or a group of Lyre Tail Checker Board Cichlid, Dicrossus filamentosus. These latter cichlids tend to live more in the lower third to middle third levels. they do not use caves and spawn in the open, usually on a small leaf much like Angels and Discus while Apistogramma species are more bottom oriented cave spawners. This keeps them from much direct competition and there are many beautiful Apistogramma species to choose from. Just when it looked like I had lost my touch with Apistogramma and was down to one aging trio of A. trifasciata, I got a decent spawn and took no chances and hatched them out artificially. i have about 45-50 which are just beginning to be mostly sexable, They are probably my favorite species. They have style and looks of more expensive species but are actually one of the best beginners species. They are among the small and slender body types and the males develop a nice :head dress of extended first 3 dorsal fin rays and males can be a very shiny Blue, They only get about 2-1/3 inches for the males and the females turn bright yellow like Apisto females do when they are spawning and brooding. it is a remarkable color transformation.. A trio or 2 trios in a community tank will provide plenty of action and color near the bottom and often they manage to produces some fry that survive being exposed to predation by big mean cardinal tetras and the like.

[Linus_Cello]

Larry- Any other recommendations for good beginner apistos that do well with plecos (what about A. cacatuoides )? For a 75 gallon tank, how many Apisto species would be ok to mix, 2 or 3? (The 75 gallon tank will have Pseudacanthicus cf. leopardus, Congo Tetras and maybe Columbian Tetras) John Patterson is coming to speak at our club this weekend; hopefully there will be a good selection of apistos for sale.

[apistomaster]

Hi Linus,
The 3 best first Apistogramma species recommended to beginners are, A. borelli, A. cacatuoides and A. trifasciata.
Only one trio of each species are recommended. It is usually best to choose one species each from the various body plans. For example, A slender species like A.trifasciata and a more stocky shape like A. borelli. The more similar they are in shape the more likely the interspecific aggression is to occur. But of these 3 species, A. cacatuoides is a relatively speaking, giant Apistogramma species when full grown but in a 75 gal any two of these three could share a tank. A. borelli is the smallest of the three but it is a slow growing species, especially considering it's size. A. trifasciata is one of the fastest growing Apistogramma species but like A. borelli, it is among the smallest of the Apistogramma species.
A. borelli and A. trifasciata share an overlapping range in the Matto Grosso and head waters of the Rio Paraguay if you like to be more ecologically correct. A. cacatuiodes are from Peru.
All three species are not demanding of special water chemistry. They are sensitive to nitrites but all Apistogramma are. So clean water is all you need with a pH between 6.0 to 8.0. and soft to moderately hard water is acceptable even for breeding.

All other Apistogramma species are more demanding of water chemistry to various degrees.