Catfish availibility

[Moontanman]

I have an idea that might allow us to make better plans when we see a catfish we would like to get for our aquariums. How about a number or some other type of label to tell us how likely we are to see a particular catfish in a petshop? I know there are lots of catfish I see in the cat-e-log and I wonder if it is worth my while to try and get the pet dealer to ask about this or that species. I suspect that most of the fish in the cat-e-log are about as likely to be for sale as a light saber is going to be at my local gun dealer.

[MatsP]

I'm not entirely sure why this is in the "Resolved" status without any explanation, but one way to find out which fish are popular (and thus, for most intents and purposes also available for sale) is to use the Forum Search feature. For example, the fifty most popular Corydoras species:
List

To get to that, you select the Family (Callichtyidae) and Genus (Corydoras), then select Sort By (Hits). That way you get the most popular to view, which is generally speaking the most commonly available in the shops.

Of course, what is available in local shops also depend VERY MUCH on where you live, so if you live in North Carolina, you may not be able to find something that is really common in Europe (perhaps because it's been bred by some European fish-farmers, or it hasn't got enough demand in the US for importers to import it, or whatver the cause may be).

The other point is that this would be very hard to actually put a number on (or any other measure), because if I frequented Pier Aquatics (and not many other shops), I would probably think that almost anything is available, whilst if I frequent Pets At Home, there are usually about four different species of Catfish - so all the others are "hard to get"... How do you rate something that is available on some web-sites, but it's priced at 3-figures or more - is that "easily available" because it's in stock at one or two web-sellers almost all the time, but it's no great demand due to pricing, or is it rare, because there's only two available online-shops and not in "Pets At Home" (or Walmart or whatever)?

I think the "hits-count" is the best way to determine what's easily available. Yes, ther are some "not often seen in the trade" fish that have many hits just because people find them interesting, or because they are commonly caught by game-fishermen, who look up the size of the species when they've caught one, for example. But generally speaking, the number of hits reflect the availability of the species.

--
Mats

[Jools]

I'm not entirely sure why this is in the "Resolved" status without any explanation

Neither am I - I didn't do it! Maybe it was actually posted in here originally by mistake? Anyway, I have moved it back to the initial for now. I'd like to have a good discussion about this one.

Anyone else...

Jools

[Jools]

To get to that, you select the Family (Callichtyidae) and Genus (Corydoras), then select Sort By (Hits). That way you get the most popular to view, which is generally speaking the most commonly available in the shops.

Yes, and if I add a page that shows registered keepers of fishes, you might also get that information but without the zebra pleco or big game cats.

Of course, what is available in local shops also depend VERY MUCH on where you live, so if you live in North Carolina, you may not be able to find something that is really common in Europe (perhaps because it's been bred by some European fish-farmers, or it hasn't got enough demand in the US for importers to import it, or whatver the cause may be).

The other point is that this would be very hard to actually put a number on (or any other measure), because if I frequented Pier Aquatics (and not many other shops), I would probably think that almost anything is available, whilst if I frequent Pets At Home, there are usually about four different species of Catfish - so all the others are "hard to get"... How do you rate something that is available on some web-sites, but it's priced at 3-figures or more - is that "easily available" because it's in stock at one or two web-sellers almost all the time, but it's no great demand due to pricing, or is it rare, because there's only two available online-shops and not in "Pets At Home" (or Walmart or whatever)?

Maybe, maybe not. If you have a 5 point system where 1 is for something you're likely to find in Walmart and 5 is never exported, extinct or a fossil. 4 is exported once or twice and so on.

It would need revision from time to time (Blue eyed pleco etc) and this brings me to the main point. Someone with a lot of experience would need to go through all species in the clog...


Jools

[Jools]

I suspect that most of the fish in the cat-e-log are about as likely to be for sale as a light saber is going to be at my local gun dealer.

True, but sometimes this kind of things happens. I agree it's worth considering as I like the idea of incorporating it into Mats cool search facility so as to exclude fish you really will never find for sale or cannot afford even.

Jools

[MatsP]

To get to that, you select the Family (Callichtyidae) and Genus (Corydoras), then select Sort By (Hits). That way you get the most popular to view, which is generally speaking the most commonly available in the shops.

Yes, and if I add a page that shows registered keepers of fishes, you might also get that information but without the zebra pl*co or big game cats.

Of course, what is available in local shops also depend VERY MUCH on where you live, so if you live in North Carolina, you may not be able to find something that is really common in Europe (perhaps because it's been bred by some European fish-farmers, or it hasn't got enough demand in the US for importers to import it, or whatver the cause may be).

The other point is that this would be very hard to actually put a number on (or any other measure), because if I frequented Pier Aquatics (and not many other shops), I would probably think that almost anything is available, whilst if I frequent Pets At Home, there are usually about four different species of Catfish - so all the others are "hard to get"... How do you rate something that is available on some web-sites, but it's priced at 3-figures or more - is that "easily available" because it's in stock at one or two web-sellers almost all the time, but it's no great demand due to pricing, or is it rare, because there's only two available online-shops and not in "Pets At Home" (or Walmart or whatever)?

Maybe, maybe not. If you have a 5 point system where 1 is for something you're likely to find in Walmart and 5 is never exported, extinct or a fossil. 4 is exported once or twice and so on.

It would need revision from time to time (Blue eyed pl*co etc) and this brings me to the main point. Someone with a lot of experience would need to go through all species in the clog...


Jools

Yes, a "5 point system" would work. The hardest ones will be the 2,3,4 levels...

And as you say, it's a lot of effort to go through the database.

Perhaps a better thing would be to use the "registered keepers" to score the fish? At least then we'd get it "automatically". It'll probably be a bit hairy to write the SQL statement to figure out which fishes have the highest number of registered keepers, but I haven't tried it.

Jools: Could you send me a template for the registered keeper table, as I don't think I've got it on my "play-database" [I'm 99% sure I haven't got it - unless it's called something completely illogical].

--
Mats

[Jools]

Could you send me a template for the registered keeper table, as I don't think I've got it on my "play-database" [I'm 99% sure I haven't got it - unless it's called something completely illogical].

Done. It's called "my_cats" but I have been fiddling with it recently, so good to have a fresh copy.

Maybe just 1, very common, 2, common, 3, infrequent, 4, rare/specialist LFS, 5, as described above if we don't do anything automated?

Jools

[Moontanman]

Why would you think that how many times a fish is looked at or "hit on" has anything to do with it's availability? I often look at fish that I know cannot be for sale in petshops just because I like to look at them and dream. Kind of like window shopping. I know how to find out how many hit's a fish has had. Just knowing that this fish is available at all would be a big help in trying to find out if it was available to your local petshop. In my area the petshops are hardly aware of which continent a fish comes from much less if a fish is available or not. If you mention the Latin name all you get is a blank stare or worse the petshop guys says "I'll order it for you check back next week" When what he really means is, "I just want this fish nut out of my face so I can loaf a while longer before I go home to play video games. Just knowing a particular fish is in the trade would mean you could at least ask for a fish knowing the guy might actually be able to get one for you. Even better would be knowing who is importing a species of fish, of course that is probably pushing your luck on that idea.

I'm not entirely sure why this is in the "Resolved" status without any explanation, but one way to find out which fish are popular (and thus, for most intents and purposes also available for sale) is to use the Forum Search feature. For example, the fifty most popular Corydoras species:
List

To get to that, you select the Family (Callichtyidae) and Genus (Corydoras), then select Sort By (Hits). That way you get the most popular to view, which is generally speaking the most commonly available in the shops.

Of course, what is available in local shops also depend VERY MUCH on where you live, so if you live in North Carolina, you may not be able to find something that is really common in Europe (perhaps because it's been bred by some European fish-farmers, or it hasn't got enough demand in the US for importers to import it, or whatver the cause may be).

The other point is that this would be very hard to actually put a number on (or any other measure), because if I frequented Pier Aquatics (and not many other shops), I would probably think that almost anything is available, whilst if I frequent Pets At Home, there are usually about four different species of Catfish - so all the others are "hard to get"... How do you rate something that is available on some web-sites, but it's priced at 3-figures or more - is that "easily available" because it's in stock at one or two web-sellers almost all the time, but it's no great demand due to pricing, or is it rare, because there's only two available online-shops and not in "Pets At Home" (or Walmart or whatever)?

I think the "hits-count" is the best way to determine what's easily available. Yes, ther are some "not often seen in the trade" fish that have many hits just because people find them interesting, or because they are commonly caught by game-fishermen, who look up the size of the species when they've caught one, for example. But generally speaking, the number of hits reflect the availability of the species.

--
Mats

[Moontanman]

Ok, so I didn't know exactly what you ment by hits on catfish but I still don't think we can rely on registered keepers to tell us which catfish are available. I have (acedentally) posted fish to "my catfish" before I knew what it was really for. I was just keepinh track of the fish i liked. I had to remove all those fish from my list (well over a hundred) to correct the mistake. It did seem to take a lot longer to remove them than it did to put them on! Even so I'm bettiong most people on this list do not register every fish they keep or even some of them. One thing I have been trying to look at is where the picture was taken. If it appeared to be taken in the bush (heh heh I'm sure that black limo at the end of the street is just parked there for no reason! any way Just becuase a fish isn't being registered doesn't mean it's not being sold!

To get to that, you select the Family (Callichtyidae) and Genus (Corydoras), then select Sort By (Hits). That way you get the most popular to view, which is generally speaking the most commonly available in the shops.

Yes, and if I add a page that shows registered keepers of fishes, you might also get that information but without the zebra pl*co or big game cats.

Of course, what is available in local shops also depend VERY MUCH on where you live, so if you live in North Carolina, you may not be able to find something that is really common in Europe (perhaps because it's been bred by some European fish-farmers, or it hasn't got enough demand in the US for importers to import it, or whatver the cause may be).

The other point is that this would be very hard to actually put a number on (or any other measure), because if I frequented Pier Aquatics (and not many other shops), I would probably think that almost anything is available, whilst if I frequent Pets At Home, there are usually about four different species of Catfish - so all the others are "hard to get"... How do you rate something that is available on some web-sites, but it's priced at 3-figures or more - is that "easily available" because it's in stock at one or two web-sellers almost all the time, but it's no great demand due to pricing, or is it rare, because there's only two available online-shops and not in "Pets At Home" (or Walmart or whatever)?

Maybe, maybe not. If you have a 5 point system where 1 is for something you're likely to find in Walmart and 5 is never exported, extinct or a fossil. 4 is exported once or twice and so on.

It would need revision from time to time (Blue eyed pl*co etc) and this brings me to the main point. Someone with a lot of experience would need to go through all species in the clog...


Jools

Yes, a "5 point system" would work. The hardest ones will be the 2,3,4 levels...

And as you say, it's a lot of effort to go through the database.

Perhaps a better thing would be to use the "registered keepers" to score the fish? At least then we'd get it "automatically". It'll probably be a bit hairy to write the SQL statement to figure out which fishes have the highest number of registered keepers, but I haven't tried it.

Jools: Could you send me a template for the registered keeper table, as I don't think I've got it on my "play-database" [I'm 99% sure I haven't got it - unless it's called something completely illogical].

--
Mats

[MatsP]

"Hits" is how many times someone has viewed a page, and yes, there's nearly no pages with zero hits (because if nothing else, me, Jools, Marc Van Arc, Silurus and some others will have hit the page a few times just to check out the information and update it and such).

But if some fish have 10K hits, and others have 200 hits, you can probably assume that the 200 hits page is not a "commonly available fish". It's not a perfect system, but it's definitely a better system than if you were to just randomly guess the availability of fish.

Another thing that helps you give an idea is the NUMBER OF pictures of the fish. There's only so many views of a fish that you can get in "the bush" (or from a preserved specimen in a lab). So if it's got 8-20 images, it's probably one that is being kept "frequently".

As to the LFS' ability to connect a scientific name to what they can order from their wholesaler/importer/exporter/etc, that's all to do with the quality of your local shop - and unfortunately, even if the "availability" is 1 for the fish, it's not going to mean that all LFS's knows that Ancistrus dolichopterus is what's listed as L183 on his "wholesale-list", for example.

A really good shop will let you look at the wholesale-list if you ask nicely (or at least will tell you what's available under for example "Catfish" on that list). [As the wholesale list shows the price they have to pay for the fish, they may not want to show you "how much profit they make" - but that can be solved by covering that part with a piece of paper or some such - not that it's exactly a secret that they pay less than half of what we pay for most things]

--
Mats

[racoll]

If you want to do it by hand, I would be happy to do a few families. Probably most of the fish in over half the of the families in the cat-elog will be 5s.

I go to fish shops enough.

I think they're getting sick of me....

[MatsP]

I agree, it's probably easiest to just fill "everything" with 5, and then hand-edit the ones that aren't that number.

The ones that aren't would be in:
Loricariidae, Callichtyidae, Mochokidae and Pimelodidae and a scattering in others (Schilbeidae for example with the glass cats) would have 1-2's in them.

I'll see if I can hack up a little application to list all the fishes with an input box for a number, so it's easy to edit all at once (or per family perhaps). [Perhaps modified by the "Registered keepers count"].

Don't think I'll do it 'til next week tho' (certainly not until Jools says this is how we do it).

--
Mats

[racoll]

I agree, it's probably easiest to just fill "everything" with 5, and then hand-edit the ones that aren't that number.

Good idea. That will save a huge amount of time, and I think it will be more accurate than tying it in with number of registered keepers. Zebra plecs are an example of a fish kept by many people, yet not very available.

It will just depend on how long it takes to edit each page.

[Jools]

If we're going to do this, do you think we should also consider indicative price ranges?

Say, under £5, £5-10, £10-25, £50-100, £100+ and not seen for sale?

Another point, availability has to be taken as an average of over the past X years. What is x? I'd say 3 or 5 - anything much less and you have too many updates.

Final point. Do we also need an availability comments field? Such as "never exported" or "not exported since 1985" or "wild caughts much less available than farm raised" and so on?

I feel if we do add an availability field, it will have a BIG entry in the glossary.

Jools

[Jools]

Even so I'm betting most people on this list do not register every fish they keep or even some of them. One thing I have been trying to look at is where the picture was taken. If it appeared to be taken in the bush (heh heh I'm sure that black limo at the end of the street is just parked there for no reason! any way Just becuase a fish isn't being registered doesn't mean it's not being sold!

I think the weight of numbers means that Mats is right here. Bear in mind the "my cats" feature is only a few weeks old - it already clearly identifies common threads . In a years time, it will, by the law of averages, be very indicative indeed.

Also, you don't need every member of this forum to register all their fish to see patterns, even if only 10% do then you still, again by the law of averages, you will see what is commonly available.

I'm off to go and create a new page showing numbers of keepers per species.

Jools

[Jools]

I'm off to go and create a new page showing numbers of keepers per species.

Coffee, porridge and a few hours later...

Show all registered keepers
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/my ... k=username

Show all species with keepers
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/my ... sk=species

Show all species in order of most keepers
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/my ... sk=keepers (I like this one

Show one keepers species
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/my ... e=arapaima

Show other keepers of that species
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/my ... e=arapaima




Jools
PS This is self populating, so the catelog page for a species MUST be visited in order that the total number of registered keepers be calculated and stored BEFORE the species shows up on the "my cats" pages. )

[racoll]

Also, you don't need every member of this forum to register all their fish to see patterns, even if only 10% do then you still, again by the law of averages, you will see what is commonly available.

While you are absolutely right Jools, my concern is that the lists of some members are a bit fanciful. I can't say they aren't keeping those fish, but I have suspicions. If just one person selects

Neblinichthys pilosus

for example, then that could automatically tell the system that it more available than it really is.

Another point, availability has to be taken as an average of over the past X years. What is x? I'd say 3 or 5 - anything much less and you have too many updates.

Final point. Do we also need an availability comments field? Such as "never exported" or "not exported since 1985" or "wild caughts much less available than farm raised" and so on?

My suggestion would be to have a field with any one of the five availabilities eg:

Common
Frequent
Infrequent
Rare/specialist LFS only
Very rarely/never found in trade

Then have a comments field below, where things like "exported from 1985-1995", "tank raised only" and "export now banned" etc could be added. This wouldn't be required for every species.

I think the availability should reflect whether it is available now. Obviously some will need updating every so often, although I doubt the majority will change.

[Moontanman]

This looks like the best idea yet, maybe no more fine tuning is needed. As long as everyone is honest it should work rather well.

Also, you don't need every member of this forum to register all their fish to see patterns, even if only 10% do then you still, again by the law of averages, you will see what is commonly available.

While you are absolutely right Jools, my concern is that the lists of some members are a bit fanciful. I can't say they aren't keeping those fish, but I have suspicions. If just one person selects

Neblinichthys pilosus

for example, then that could automatically tell the system that it more available than it really is.

Another point, availability has to be taken as an average of over the past X years. What is x? I'd say 3 or 5 - anything much less and you have too many updates.

Final point. Do we also need an availability comments field? Such as "never exported" or "not exported since 1985" or "wild caughts much less available than farm raised" and so on?

My suggestion would be to have a field with any one of the five availabilities eg:

Common
Frequent
Infrequent
Rare/specialist LFS only
Very rarely/never found in trade

Then have a comments field below, where things like "exported from 1985-1995", "tank raised only" and "export now banned" etc could be added. This wouldn't be required for every species.

I think the availability should reflect whether it is available now. Obviously some will need updating every so often, although I doubt the majority will change.

[Jools]

Each family page (e.g. http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/fa ... mily_id=29 ) now shows how many species are being kept in that family.

Also, several pages used to show the number of images for that species in parenthesis. They now also show the number of registered keepers (e.g. (i=4, k=3) means that a species has 4 images and 3 keepers). Let me know if you find other areas of the site I haven't found that should be changed to this.

Jools

[Jools]

Is there still an appetite to do this? The My Cats data is now mature and clearly shows what is common and what is not.

Jools

[Moontanman]

Well I've been away from the catfish hobby for a while due to problems and I am getting back in ( I have paddlefish now, they used to be called spoonbill cats, lol) It sounds like a good way to use the data to me...

My you-tube video of my paddlefish




[mod edit: Jools: Fixed youtube tag]

[sidguppy]

you do know that this is not an aquariumfish, since it reaches 5-6 feet and needs to swim all the time?

a group of adult paddlefish would need a tank the size of an olympic swimming pool......

[Moontanman]

I was told the same thing, paddlefish are unmanageable as aquarium fish. Paddlefish only eat plankton, paddlefish will beat themselves against the sides of the tank until they die, paddlefish get huge and will outgrow their tank almost immediately. The list of things I've been told goes on and on.

But are they true?

The fish I have are called dinks, natural runts, and the size of their container limits their size drastically as well. Much like the iridescent sharks I've had that never got more than 12" long these fish are not supposed to be large.

Long term captives (4 years +) are still less than 10" long, my fish are between 4 and 6 inches long, their hatch mates at the hatchery are 16" plus now and growing like weeds, mine have all but stopped growing.

These fish feed aggressively on floating pellets and have even swallowed several black banded sunfish that are in the tank with them. Plankton is not necessary but I do feed mine Daphnia magna I culture for my other fish as well.

I've had them for more than two months and little or no damage to their rostrums. They are great fish that swim consistently, never stopping.

I am about to transfer mine to a 75 gallon tank, they are in a 30 right now, so far all captives are doing well in 75 gallon and 125 gallon tanks. I hope to eventually have mine in a 250 or so but I have found quite a bit of common knowledge about these fish to simply be assumptions with little or no real experience to back them up.

I love em, they are among the best fish I have ever kept...

[MatsP]

I think looking at the keepers register is fine - certainly when someone is asking about a fish that I don't know of the top of my head - and I'm proud when fish that I have are listed as "3 keepers" or some such (not that this in itself is the goal of what I keep - I want to keep fish _I_ like, whether they are common or rare).

I don't know [well, I have SOME idea] how easy it is to give some sort of "ranking" or other easily readable "key" to the Cat-eLog in some sensible manner.

--
Mats

[Moontanman]

If it can be done in a reasonably easy way I am all for it but I'm not sure heaven and earth should be moved to do it....

[Jools]

But are they true?

Yes. Your fish should live several decades. Post pictures of them here every month in three years and I'll send you $100. I don't like to be the bearer of bad news, and it is not my intent to go off post but I can't see misinformation posted here without reply. Sorry. I've not been able to keep this species myself and these days I wouldn't try. However, I have worked in places that have handled them and I have not seen any live in private ownership for more than 6 months.

Suggest we leave it there, or you start another thread for the pics...

Jools

[Moontanman]

But are they true?

Yes. Your fish should live several decades. Post pictures of them here every month in three years and I'll send you $100. I don't like to be the bearer of bad news, and it is not my intent to go off post but I can't see misinformation posted here without reply. Sorry. I've not been able to keep this species myself and these days I wouldn't try. However, I have worked in places that have handled them and I have not seen any live in private ownership for more than 6 months.

Suggest we leave it there, or you start another thread for the pics...

Jools

Jools, i am surprised that you of all people would suggest i am not being truthful, just becasue you could not keep them does not mean someone with more experince cannot do so. I'll state the main info again so there is no mistake, these are not normal paddlefish, they are gentic runts, dinks som call them, they normally end up in a landfill, there are already captives older than 4 years that still doing well and less than 10" long. As for thier age when was the last time you kept a fish it's entire possible life span? a red tailed cat could easily out live paddle fish as do many other catifsh, even small ones can live well over a decade. I guess they would be better off dead in a landfill. i won't bother this forum again with my lies but it you want to follow me as i explore these fish and keeping them i suggest you follow me on on of the other forums i post on, NANFA, monsterfish keepers, water wolves, fish&more, Hypography, SFN, or carolina community aquarium, NANFA is probaby the best site since the breeder posts there too. I am really surprised you would be so intolerant and quick to condemn Jools...

[Jools]

I did not suggest you're a liar and I find the accusation I'm intolerant verging on hilarious - so please, don't try to raise the temperature unnecessarily. Try running a site for 10+ years and not get a little jaded by everybody who thinks fish will grow to the size of their surroundings. As I'm very fond of saying I know a lot of monster fish keepers and precious few who have they animals for any length of time. As to the point about red tails, I'd suggest they're better in the Amazon or with folks that can keep them for that long period of time. Anyway, neither of these are the point.

I have a concern also around a more general "let's go and catch a cute wee paddlefish and keep it at home" type thing.

The information about keeping them in captivity came from a chat I had with the then curator of Tennessee Aquarium around their captive care. Certainly when I was working in the trade we saw them and they died quickly - feeding I think. They feed on plankton in the wild and getting enough to them to grow them was generally accepted as somewhere between hugely improbable and impossible in captivity. I am always keen to learn from people with more experience than me. What would be useful to know, however, is what are you feeding them and what's a gentic runt? I mean, how do they get like that?

If you're going to post videos, you've got to tell us how you're doing it!

Jools

[Moontanman]

Well Jools, so far I have 10 weeks of actually keeping these fish under my belt, if you hadn't jumped on me with both feet I would have given this forum all the info I've accumulated so far. The fish did not come from the wild, they came from captive bred fish for caviar. So far no one knows why dinks happen (they happen in other fish as well) but they would be sent to the land fill if not for being sent to me.

They eat both floating pellets and Daphnia magna, I bred large quantities of Daphnia magna for my fish so I feed them both floating pellets and Daphnia. So far they haven't done much if any damage to their rostrums, much of what I have been told about keeping them over the years has proved to be assumptions with no basis in fact. this started more than 4 years ago and long term captives are still less than 10". your assertion that

"I have a concern also around a more general "let's go and catch a cute wee paddlefish and keep it at home" type thing."

Would. if you have been paying attention have obviously been false. These are not wild caught fish, as for fish staying small in captivity many fish do indeed tend to stay small in captivity goldfish come to mind, others not so much but being in captivity does effect the size of a fish but that is nether here nor there since these fish start out smaller than their hatch mates. As of now no one knows why...

You my friend condemned me before I could tell you anything, you assumed things that were not true due to your world view that it was impossible.

If you're going to post videos, you've got to tell us how you're doing it!

You condemned me before I could explain, I have a blog about this at hypography.com, SFN, and threads on several other sites, I have been doing nothing but explaining what is going on to anyone who wants to know but the hostile reactions I've been getting are themselves getting old, now I've building a stand for my 75 so I can move them up to the bigger tank, when I get them moved I'll post a new video..

Now I would like to say that so far they have been very easy to keep, it remains to be seen if they remain easy to keep, one thing is for sure, my fish are about 1/4 the size of their hatch mates at the fish farm...

[Moontanman]

BTW, these fish also grab and swallow small fish they come across, so far they have wiped out several black banded sunfish I put in their tank... paddlefish 5" sunfish 1", 7 adult and 5 tiny sunfish eaten, i watched them being swallowed. i to am in contact with people from public aquariums, they are trying to keep adult paddlefish which is orders of magnitude more difficlt than getting babies and raising them to adults in captivity. The fish get used to being confined, they are no worse than any other fish about avoiding the sides of the tank, they learn just like any other fish...