R/O unit differences?

[satony]

Hi everyone,

I believe this is my first post on this forum even though ive looked at lot of useful information on this site. But I have a question about R/O unit types? I am currently trying to breed L-134 I have four of then in a 20L and have been there for close to a year. But with all the research ive come up with it seems I need an R/O unit to accomplish this. So I wanna know what kind of R/O unit to buy? I dont have much money to spend and was wondering if the smaller ones will accomplish the same goal of softening the water enough to cause my plecos to breed? I am open to all suggestions.

thanks,
Aaron

[PeterUK]

A smaller unit will take longer to filter the water to make the 'RO water', that is all the difference is between the different size units.

[Bas Pels]

I would assume a smaller unit - working more hours a week - will last not that long as a larger one. Although the RO process does not have moving parts, there is still some wear inside

But if you cannot affort a big one (now) the choise is a small one or not. And both do basically the same

[racoll]

I am currently trying to breed L-134 I have four of then in a 20L and have been there for close to a year. But with all the research ive come up with it seems I need an R/O unit to accomplish this.

Frim what I gather, I don't think these fish are that fussy over water. They should breed in regular tapwater.

The key to success is generally not the water - it is feeding them enough (and providing good water quality) for them to ripen with eggs, and having the patience to persist when they don't seem to be interested.

That said, if you have really nasty tapwater, an RO unit will certainly give you more confidence. What are your water parameters?

A small unit should suffice, as it's only be partial changes on a small tank.

[MatsP]

I agree with racoll, if you have "good" but medium-hard tap-water, you don't need an RO unit to breed these fish. If you want a dip in conductivity, you could simply use shop-bought RO water - should be available in your local supermarket or a nearby LFS.

However, to answer the actual questions you ask:
There is very little difference between say a 50 gpd and a 100 gpd unit. There are some units that do not use standard 10" pre-filter units [see picture below for "standard" looking unit] - avoid those, as it ties you in to a single manufacturer for replacement pre-filter parts - and you should replace your pre-filters every 6 months or so, so that's an important factor to take into account.

The RO membrane, aside from size and capacity differences, will be the same whatever brand of unit you get (ok, there are a few different companies making membranes - but there are FAR bigger number of companies printing labels, folding/bending metal and connecting hoses together to make RO units).

If you have a 20 gallon tank, you probably only need about 10-15 gallon a week, at the most, so one of the smaller units will be quite fine.
This is a UK company, but I reccon there is a US company selling something very similar to the first unit on this page:
http://www.osmotics.co.uk/reverse-osmos ... 46_78.html

[Bear in mind that if you don't have tap-water that comes out at 90psi and 25'C/77'F in your tap, you will get less than the advertised 36gpd]

The second unit is an example of the type of unit that doesn't use standard pre-filter fittings.

I would also say that it's a waste to spend money on a 4-stage unit for fishkeeping purposes.

Remember that whatever unit (within reason) you get, the production will be a trickle, not a flow, so you need some sort of storage for your water, and a relatively permanent connection to the water supply.

--
Mats

[satony]

thanks for all the responses everyone. lots of information here but I might not have to get a R/O unit at all. Someone suggested that I test my water paramaters well it turns out since I moved a year ago I must not have checked any parameters because I still live in the same city. And my paramaters on tap are PH : 7.2, KH: 89.5ppm, GH: 17.9ppm. Which meens I have pretty soft water now...So the question now is do I need an R/O unit to succesfully spawn L-134 and Im feeding them earth worm sticks once a night. Is this a good enough diet?

[racoll]

So the question now is do I need an R/O unit to succesfully spawn L-134

Not sure if RO is absolutely required, but if you are convinced your fish are sexually mature, packed with eggs, its the right time of year, and they still aren't spawning, maybe cool RO changes will work.

Im feeding them earth worm sticks once a night. Is this a good enough diet?

Earthworm sticks have a good reputation, but I would vary it up a bit more with frozen bloodworms, mosquito larvae, shrimp, spirulina flakes and veggies (fava beans, sweet potato).

Feed three times a day, get the water warm (28C-29C) and well oxygenated, but keep the tank really clean and change lots of water regularly.

Larry ("Apistomaster") has had great results breeding these. It is worth searching his threads for info.

[MatsP]

I'm pretty sure that Larry breeds his L134 in tap-water, which where he lives is both harder and more alkaline than yours - so your water should be fine.

--
Mats

[satony]

great thanks for the extra help. and would you know what size caves to use and where to get them from? thanks again

[MatsP]

I generally make my own caves in various ways. Drilling holes in aquarium drift-wood can be quite hard work, but looks nice and works well. If you have ability to cut flooring tiles, there are a variety of types that can be made into caves using aquarium silicon-sealant. And PVC or ABS (solvent weld) water-pipes are available in a range of sizes and colours that can be used with a "plug" (or a piece of stone or wood as a plug).

Otherwise, there are manufactured caves available in the "for sale" sections for example.

As to size, the general rule is about fish-length and half again, a little higher than the body of the fish, and a little wider than the fish. There is no real exact formula here (I've given some more detailed numbers, but it's a false accuracy, as it's really up to the individual fish what it feels happy with - just like you can measure a persons chest size and check a list for what size T-shirts that corresponds to, but if you take two different people of the same size, you may find that although the "official" size they should wear is L, one prefers a tight fit and buys M size T-shirts, and another prefers a very loose fit, and goes for the XL size). So my solution to this is to give the male a choice of a few different caves of different size.

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

I'm pretty sure that Larry breeds his L134 in tap-water, which where he lives is both harder and more alkaline than yours - so your water should be fine.

--
Mats

My L134 are seasonal breeders. They begin within +/- 2 weeks of March 1st and then stop within +/- 2 weeks of Sept 1st. During their breeding season I keep them in very soft water, ~50 ppm TDS but during the rest of the year I keep them in tap water. They have bred in tap water but not often.

[MatsP]

Ah, ok, so RO water may improve the spawning frequency for these fish.

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

I use RO water to simulate the rainy season and begin dilution with RO a few weeks before I anticipate the first spawns.
I doubt I would have been as successful at producing so many each season without the change to softer water. The tap water has a pH of 7.4 and 340 ppm. When I gradually bring the TDS down to ~50 ppm the pH drops to about 6.4 solely due to a reduction in buffering capacity. I do not use anything to lower the pH. I have had 3 consecutive productive seasons yielding about 250 fry each season. This year was the first season any of my oldest F1 females spawned. I added a few more females to my group of wild breeders. I haven't yet gotten around to setting up a group of all F1 for breeding because I am still getting all I can sell from the existing group. Aside from my main breeding group I have about 3 dozen F1's which could spawn if I set them up in proper breeding tanks.

[satony]

some more good info the is one great forum for catfish information. so right now I got my 20 long set up with three 1" 1/2 x 7" pvc pipes with caps on the end. and their is a power head making aiming at them. also I have two pieces of drift wood that they love. Now two of my plecos will go in the pvc caves and the one is my oldest female who usually stays in the cave. Does this meen I have a suitable cave? Also im not sure if I have any males because I dont see any big odontles but I do have one that is bigger than the rest and he always hides in the driftwood. and one last thing for guidance I wanted to ask was. when simulating the rainy season do you just use cool soft water or do you have to let the tank get dirty and low with water too?

[apistomaster]

I think there are several ways to set up an L134 breeding tank that will work. I use a 20 long and one large sponge filter which is powered by a MaxiJet 600 power head(160 gph), one run using the air lift tube and an air stone. I use 2-3 males and 4 to 6 females.
I lay the sponge filter over on it's side and the stream of water passes by the cave openings at right angle to the caves and not aimed into the cave openings.
I offer a variety of sized caves for the fish but in general, I try to make them just large enough for two fish to enter but small enough for the male to trap the females until they spawn. The fish may be different sizes so that is why I do not have a very strict set of dimensions except for the lengths which are determined by the size of a tile cut in half, ~5.5 inches. I have always used caves made out of ceramic floor tiles glued together with silicone sealant. I buy the types of tiles which have simulated slate or stone finishes and that side forms the cave exterior. I think your PVC caves are close enough to being the right size. I do sometimes think that given a choice, most will chose the rougher stone like finish over the slick PVC but one never knows. They spawn where they spawn.
I find I can sex L134 fairly accurately when they are placed in a white dish pan and viewed from above. Females tend to have a bulge at behind their pectoral fins and the males are more evenly tapered. For me, this is accurate regardless of whether the males have obvious odontodes showing. Sometimes the sexing may be further confirmed by picking them up by hand because the males will feel spikier than females of the same size. Those become more prominent among males in breeding condition. I have been able to accurately sex barely mature tank raised specimens using this method. I am able to compare a lot of specimens of the same age so that is easier than comparing fish which may be years apart in age. 20 months is about as early as I have tried sexing L134. I still have a fairly good stock of L134 which are at least 1 year old and 2-1/2 to 2-3/4 Total length which will be old enough to breed next Spring.

As far as preparing them for breeding I keep them in tap water and change about 70% of their water each week. In the last ,month before I expect spawning to begin I feed them more frozen blood worms than earth worm sticks. I never really let them live in much neglected conditions. I think that the conditioning then acclimation to soft water and beginning to make 75% water changes ever 4th day is sufficient to help trigger breeding. I don't practice benign neglect any greater than the routine care given while still living in my tap water.

[satony]

thanks a whole lot apisto and everyone else for all the information on breeding and R/O units. Now im gonna have to be patient and see what what happens.

[jeff@zina.com]

And PVC or ABS (solvent weld) water-pipes are available in a range of sizes and colours that can be used with a "plug" (or a piece of stone or wood as a plug).

I have a friend who makes his out of PVC pipe by cutting a length then flattening one end by heating with a propane torch and stepping on it. Seems to work well and the fish don't seem to care what color it is. And I agree, L-134 doesn't take any special water, but they do like clean moving water and decent food availability.

Of course, you already know all this since you read the breeding article: http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... cle_id=241



Jeff