When does a green phantom become a blue???

Flyfisher · Post by **Flyfisher** » 10 Jun 2010, 11:17

Hi all,

I've been looking at both phantoms for a while and have actually purchased 2 L200 and 1 L128.
What really bugs me in the back of my mind is how do we know from looking at a very greeny L128 if it's an L128 or an L200 ?

Are there other differences than colour? Size seems to be about the same, shape the same, both have such a variance in colour and in spot size and amount. Is there any scientific or genetic proof that these are two different species or is it generally accepted that it's much more likely to be just regional variants of one fish?

Gavin

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 10 Jun 2010, 11:40

Scientists [as far as I'm aware] have not looked at L128 - I'll try to find out if they have after I spoke about it with Mark Sabaj about 15 months ago [Mark is who described L200]

There is certainly a variability in colour in the L128, and it is entirely possible that they are the same species - they are certainly closely related. Only a scientist can really tell whether they should be classified as one or two species. It is HIGHLY likely that they will cross breed.

My feeling is that it's L128 if the main body colour under natural light, when the fish is unstressed, is mostly a blue colour - it is quite often a bit on the green side, but it's more blue than green.

Note that (at least in my fish) when it's dark, the fish turns more green.

--
Mats

Flyfisher · Post by **Flyfisher** » 10 Jun 2010, 13:12

Mats,
By the way, I bought the L128 last night from a guy who lives fairly close to you in Guildford. The fish hasvery similar colouring to yours and I'm wondering has it came from the same shop, a local MA store ? And hence from the same supplier and collection point back in south America? Hmmmm?

Gavin

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 10 Jun 2010, 13:17

No, my fish came from Pier Aquatics. But if you expect them to look like this:

then you probably will be looking around a lot. Most of the fish you find in shops are more green in colour - as you can also see in the pictures in the Cat-eLog. They also, as I've pointed out before, tend to go more green when stressed.

--
Mats

Flyfisher · Post by **Flyfisher** » 10 Jun 2010, 13:49

I'd agree with that, definitely!
My fish last night looked very pale green in the bag with hints of blue in the fns. Almost immediately once in the tank, it lookped blue and this morning I got a quick look and it looked a darker blue. I'm very much looking forward to seeing how it looks this evening once I get home. Bu it's huge and it's a stunning fish. This I already know, so I'm a happy boy

Suckermouth · Post by **Suckermouth** » 10 Jun 2010, 16:39

MatsP wrote:Scientists [as far as I'm aware] have not looked at L128 - I'll try to find out if they have after I spoke about it with Mark Sabaj about 15 months ago [Mark is who described L200]

There aren't enough specimens in scientific collections. L128 is fairly uncommon in the wild. Otherwise it would probably already be described since it comes form the Orinoco, which has been heavily sampled in recently years. Colombian scientists have apparently been wanting to describe L128, but they have only one specimen.

IMO, an individual green phantom won't become blue (that is, if it's really a green phantom). Based off of the recent breedings of both L200 and L128, it looks like color is inheritable.

If anyone has a dead L128 and doesn't mind sending it to me, I would be interested in sequencing one (or a few). Send me a PM and we can talk.

2wheelsx2 · Post by **2wheelsx2** » 10 Jun 2010, 17:21

I am not even sure that it's just stress that turns an L128 greenish. I got a batch of decent sized ones (4 - 5") that were all blue to begin with and now one of them is turning green. So this one is greenish with blue hues while the other 4 are smoky grey/blue.

Flyfisher · Post by **Flyfisher** » 10 Jun 2010, 18:13

I hadn't thought about the possibility of a green phantom turning blue, but as mats suggested, my new blue phantom when sressed In the bag looked green and then turned blue once in the tank. This kind of colour changing is not to do with the possible relationship between the two species, I suspect it's more to do with what almost all fish possess and it's mood, stress, breeding, age that cause colour changes.

But the possibility that L200 light green, L128 dark blue and everything inbetween being regional variants of the same fish, is one that sounds very feasable to me.

So, there you go Mats, a kind offer from someone very keen to do the scientific studies to give us the answer.
I think it only right that instead of trying to sell your spare male for £25 you should donate it to science, knock it on the head, pop it in a jar and post over to this kind fellow

matthewfaulkner · Post by **matthewfaulkner** » 10 Jun 2010, 18:54

I thought it might be helpful just to confirm which L200 we are talking about. Im guessing rather than .

2wheelsx2 · Post by **2wheelsx2** » 10 Jun 2010, 18:58

I believe we're all talking about as the is a

Flyfisher · Post by **Flyfisher** » 10 Jun 2010, 19:15

Absolutely. Until somebody finds a blue high fin that is

now that would be one desireable fish!

Thanks for all chipping in on this guys. I hope it is a topic that's worthy of good discussion for all here and one that hopefully some day there's an answer to.

You got that blue Fish of yours in an envelope yet Mats????

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 10 Jun 2010, 19:24

No, I've offered to cut a bit of a fin off for Milton, but I don't think it's meaningful to send the whole fish...

--
Mats

2wheelsx2 · Post by **2wheelsx2** » 10 Jun 2010, 19:33

It's too bad I didn't know PC that well back then. I had 3 small L128s die on my a year ago and could have donated them.

hotplecogirl · Post by **hotplecogirl** » 11 Jun 2010, 01:54

I have 4 very large L128 and 3 very large L200.I notice a great variety in shades of greens on the L200's but the L128's all look the same.These fish were purchased one here one there so i am sure a few locations.I put them in a very large 450 gallon tank all together.Strange as it is all the L128's stay on one side for the most part as well as all the L200's staying on the opposite side.The L200's are always out and about where the L128's hide much more.Perhaps the L200's are found in a location where there is much more open space?I do have one smaller L200 in another tank that looks like a cross between the two.

Suckermouth · Post by **Suckermouth** » 11 Jun 2010, 05:29

Haha, you don't have to kill a fish for me. An aquarium fish specimen is only valuable to know the amount of differentiation (which in itself will not lead to a scientific publication). Scientists go on collecting trips because locality data is vitally important to distinguishing species.

Flyfisher · Post by **Flyfisher** » 11 Jun 2010, 17:19

Hi hotplecogirl

how large are your blue and green phantoms? And were they large when you bought them?
That's a big tank! What are the dimensions? And tankmates?

Cheers

Gavin

hotplecogirl · Post by **hotplecogirl** » 11 Jun 2010, 17:40

My L128's are 7-10 inches.My L200's are 5-6 inches.I got them in at a large size.There tank is 4.5x4.5x2.5 feet.A big box.

Flyfisher · Post by **Flyfisher** » 12 Jun 2010, 09:07

I have to ask. Do you have any photos to show ?

Taratron · Post by **Taratron** » 13 Jun 2010, 03:20

So it would not be advisable to keep blue and green phantoms together?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 13 Jun 2010, 09:15

Taratron wrote:So it would not be advisable to keep blue and green phantoms together?

Indeed. At least not if you have females of one and males of another.

--
Mats

Flyfisher · Post by **Flyfisher** » 14 Jun 2010, 22:35

Unless the answer to my question is that they are indeed the same species.
If they are then what you're worried bout has possibly been happening at a certain point in the river where they both exist. I'd love to see phantoms colleced at intervals up and down this river system to see if there's a pattern i.e. The futhermost collections may be a very pale green phantom and a ver dark blue phantom. And with gradually changing colours along the way.

I have a female L128, a female l200 and two male L200 now.
Mats, if they ever breed and if the fry ever survive in a tank of Geophagus and silver dollars and of course other plecs that may eat fry, I'll give you a few young to start life as whatever you'd like to call them

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 14 Jun 2010, 22:59

_EVEN_ if they are the same species by scientists, they should not be combined in a breeding situation - that will cause a "mess" from the loss of the true green and true blue colour, and getting some sort of inbetween colour.

Of course, there are plenty of examples in the captive breeding of fish where they have been crossed in such a way that they in no way look like their wild counterpards - Sword tails (livebearers) aren't normally red in nature - they become red if you cross them with red forms of platy. And it's likely that most forms of livebearers are hybrids that are all mixed up. But we don't really want that to continue.

Now, I've already stated, in another thread several months ago, that these fish should not be kept together in a situation that may lead to breeding, and I don't really think it's AT ALL good advice to suggest that they should be kept together. I personally do not believe they are even going to come out as the same species, but that is besides the point - if they are not different species, they are definitely different geographical variants, and we do not want to loose that difference by sloppy breeders who mix any green or blue fish and come out with an inbetween.

And you are contradicting yourself: you already rejected my male fish because it wasn't blue enough - so why do you now propose that mixing the blue with the green would be a good thing.

--
Mats

Suckermouth · Post by **Suckermouth** » 14 Jun 2010, 23:12

Flyfisher wrote:Unless the answer to my question is that they are indeed the same species.
If they are then what you're worried bout has possibly been happening at a certain point in the river where they both exist. I'd love to see phantoms colleced at intervals up and down this river system to see if there's a pattern i.e. The futhermost collections may be a very pale green phantom and a ver dark blue phantom. And with gradually changing colours along the way.

AFAIK, most of the upper Orinoco is L200. L128 are fairly uncommon and probably found in a limited area. Despite the fact we know that L128 occurs at the Puerto Ayacucho, it remains fairly elusive (also scientists don't get anywhere near as many collecting trips as fishermen that go collect for the aquarium trade). I think there is only one museum specimen in Colombia. I'm not aware of any here at Auburn despite numerous collecting trips in the Orinoco, although they might be somewhere I don't know about. Another explanation is that they have lost their coloration due to preservation and I have seen them and thought nothing of them. L200 possibly does not occur together with L128, but I don't know this for a fact.

In any case, there is not a continuum in the color difference over the entire range of L200 and L128; the gradient would probably occur in a fairly limited stretch of the Orinoco. The big question is whether or not a smooth gradient occurs at all. If there is, they are likely the same species. If there isn't (ie. there is a break between green and blue fish), they are probably different species. Due to the fact that coloration is lost during preservation, this is best answered with live specimens (with locality data). In any case, without thorough sampling, the question of whether L200 and L128 are the same or different species cannot be rigorously tested. The Colombians wish to describe L128 based off of their one specimen, but I personally disagree with this. There is no way to tell if it's really different if you don't look for all the in-between fish too. When you start filling in holes, what you thought divided species can break down; thus, the only way to really tell is to find the in-between fish (ie. greenish L128 as in the Cat-eLog) and do comparisons including them.

Regardless of whether H. subviridis and L128 are the same or different species, I agree with Mats. I would not keep them together.

2wheelsx2 · Post by **2wheelsx2** » 14 Jun 2010, 23:19

It might be flippant of me to say so, but science aside, how many people here have had successful spawnings of L128 and L200's (separately or mixed)? It's not like these things breed like guppies (or even BNP's). I agree philosophically that we should keep them distinct. But for most of us who are just keeping plecos for personal visual appeal, and not having fish rooms and species tanks, is a spawning really that easy? Has anyone just thrown a few into a tank and had a spawning? I know I haven't. Isn't that kind of like worrying about governing a moped not to go over 100 km/h? Theoretically it's possible, but how often does it happen?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 14 Jun 2010, 23:26

Oh, I agree that they are unlikely to breed - but if you DO get fry from a mix, what are you going to do?

And I don't have any problem with someone keeping a bunch of L128 males with a bunch of L200 males (or females with females). The worst possible mix would be one type of male(s) with another type of female(s).

--
Mats

2wheelsx2 · Post by **2wheelsx2** » 14 Jun 2010, 23:37

In a mixed tank? Nothing. There's not a chance they'll survive. If by any outside chance they do, then I'll happily keep them in the tank as I do my other fishes. At some point soon, I'm going to have a dedicated tank to try and breed the L128, but at this point in time, I don't have the tank space to start a breeding program.

Edit: As a bit of comic relief, I could list my species of plecos concurrently not breeding.

However, I think it's simpler to say that I haven't even bred BNP's yet, so getting my L128 to breed would be almost like the parting of the Red Sea.

Flyfisher · Post by **Flyfisher** » 15 Jun 2010, 15:18

Mats,
a couple of things:-
firstly try to get it out of your mind that everyone keeps fish the way you do. Most fishkeepers keep them to watch and enjoy in their living room. Not to keep them in a shed with poor light and be content in the fact they own such things and that they hope to breed them.
As 2wheels rightly pointed out, fry have little chance of Even happening but if they do then survival is about as likely as winning the lottery!

You also mentioned that if L200 and L128 ever did breed we'd lose the lovely green and the lovely blue we have. Wake up! Take a look at the pics on this site on L128, many are more green than blue, which is why i raised this question in the first place. The L200 is perhaps more
constant in colour but there have been many very yellowy ones and I've also seen some in shops that are all together in a tank and one or two have very bluey spots and a darker bluey green body. So nature has already provided the mix of colours! Or is that in nature we have what we call the L128 breeding with what we call the L200????

The other thing, I did not contradict myself. The reasons I didn't want to buy your fish were 1.) it was too small and 2.) the darker blues are the ones I prefer to look at. Simple.

I have to be honest that all this winding you up a little on fish cross breeding does make me chuckle.
Let people stock what they wish. And you carry on with your way of fishkeeping. Maybe the debate should be Which fish are happier, the ones kept in a community display tank or the ones kept in a shed?

Cheers to you 2wheels, a realistic view of things is appreciated

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 15 Jun 2010, 16:48

So, you are basically saying that I shouldn't tell others what I think is right? And how far do you want me to draw that line? Until they keep a RTC in a 10g tank and think that "it will only grow to the size of the tank, as I've read on several pages on the internet"?

I'm sorry, but that's not going to happen! I have my views, and I'm going to continue having my views.

And if you have a room of 2.7 x 2.7 meter with more than 350W of fluorescent tubes (and one incandescent 60W bulb as well), then you have more lighting than my fish-room. If not, don't say anything about the amount of lights in my fishroom. The fact that it's hard to photograph fish without having EXCESSIVE lighting is a different matter.

--
Mats

Flyfisher · Post by **Flyfisher** » 15 Jun 2010, 17:10

Cage well and truly rattled huh?

Listen, all I'm saying is just try to recognise that we all have different wants and aims from our fishkeeping. And the advice of, you shouldn't keep a blue phantom with a green phantom is way too personal to dish out to everyone!

Were not talking about extremes of keeping giant fish in tiny tanks at all, were just talking about people finding pleasure in their hobby and some cases breeding fish. If someone asks you, should I breed this fish with that, then sure, fire your opinions away, but give folk a break.
Live and let live.

I knew as soon as I started this thread which is a topic very worthy of discussion that you'd get in and turn it this way. And you know something, it just makes me smile

Bas Pels · Post by **Bas Pels** » 15 Jun 2010, 19:09

Flyfisher

I don't think you attitude is very constructive. From the above I understand you and MatsP met, and don't (fully) agree on how to keep (cat)fish. This has nothing to do with this forum, unless the differences are put into their own topic. You brought them in, in an ad hominum attack. Not nice

Back to combining L200 with L128. Currently, one of the L200's is seen as the same species as L128. But they come from different localities. They are NOT identical, and the very name - blue phanom vs green phantom - does suggest this

Can you keep them together - yes. Chanses of them biting each other are similar to them biting others of the same kind - and both L200 and L128 can best be kept in groupes

But should you keep them together? I would rephrase the question to whou would you keep them together? A tank with say 10 L200 or L128 is much more beautifull than one with 5 of both, because that would look more messy.

IF you keep them together, you are not certain any offspring is pure or a bastard. Although English is not my native tongue, I know using the word bastard is not generally approuved. But it does tell exactly what I intend to say: the offspring are bastards, nobody in his/her right mind will want to keep

I can not think of any reason why you would keep them together. Both are similarily available, similarily prized, so an argument 'I wanted to expand my group of 4 L200, and could only find, or afford, L128 just is not valid.

But perhaps I'm missing something??

When does a green phantom become a blue???

When does a green phantom become a blue???

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