How to tell if a Tadpole Madtom is Mature? FRY PICTURES!!!

nvcichlids · Post by **nvcichlids** » 05 Jun 2010, 23:36

I have now a group of 6 , but only one is above 3", the others are now about 2-2.5 and one at about 1.75". What is the best way to sex these or tell if they are mature yet? Do they show specific behaviors when they are adults (like location of hiding?)

THanks,

Nate

The.Dark.One · Post by **The.Dark.One** » 05 Jun 2010, 23:56

According to a paper most mature at 2 years old, but a small percentage at 1 year. In the study the 1 year mature specimens were 55mm SL for males and 48mm for females. I've observed them myself and from my observations it appears that males guard caves and then the eggs. The study says mature males in breeding condition have swollen lips and developed muscles which give the head a broad flat appearance. Their genital area is also different (see paper).

https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/181 ... N4_153.pdf

Post by **Birger** » 06 Jun 2010, 06:15

Have a look at the color as well...I have attached three pics of some that I have, the juvenile was about 2.5 inch at the time, adults get that nice yellow-orange color on them which seems to get more intense at times. 3rd photo will give a size comparison.
Juvenile

Adult

size comparison

Birger

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 06 Jun 2010, 17:56

NV,

I always thought madtoms in northern latitudes needed to be two years old but in the warm South, if some reached sexual maturity in their first year it wouldn't surprise me.
Most of our native fish also need to have a simulated winter in order to come into spawning condition. I think you have some option which would allow you to let them undergo a couple simulated winters so for those captured locally I would be hoping to get them to spawn after coming out of their second winter.

I did not know as much about fish when I caught some species which became naturalized after their introduction to the Columbia River Basin so I only knew that it was the males which were responsible for the brood care and I captured a couple guarding eggs inside the older style steel beverage(beer cans) cans before the use of thin aluminum became standard. These were the only adults I ever caught. Around the same time I discovered and captured a few juveniles, 2-1/2 inches, from a small stream about 20 miles from home. This stream is very small and becomes little more than a trickle after spring run off.
I can't collect anymore due impaired mobility but I know Nez Perce Native Americans working for the Tribal Fisheries Management Agency who do do fish sampling in their Reservation waters which is where this nearby stream is located, to please watch out for any specimens they might catch and I have asked if I could obtain some so I could study them as aquarium fish. They appear to be extremely rare here. It appears that the only species that has been discovered anywhere in this large drainage is the Tadpole Madtom. I had to research some to find that out and it only heightens my interest.

Birger,
Your specimens look like they are in excellent condition. You have that same seasonal simulation issue to overcome if you are likely to ever breed them. They are exotic catfish to you, an introduced species for me but one aI would like to try to breed someday. I have hoped to acquire some locally collected specimens for free but it is looking like my best bet would be to order some from a native fish dealer. I have an unheated cellar which never freezes but gets cool enough to simulate winter conditions, 6 or 7*C. I don't they would need much feeding when their water is in the 40's*F/6 or 7*C range.

The.Dark.One · Post by **The.Dark.One** » 06 Jun 2010, 18:36

Mine bred in an unheated tank in a fishhouse but never found any youngsters. See image of egg brood in a cave:

http://www.scotcat.com/thedarkone/ictal ... rinus2.jpg

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 06 Jun 2010, 19:50

It is eye opening for me to see how many in the UK have Tadpole Madtoms.
I know they are popular among US fish keepers who do like our native fish but the numbers of those who keep native fish are small. Are Madtoms being imported periodically or have they become established in some waters?

At least some eggs were laid. That is some progress and encouraging.

The.Dark.One · Post by **The.Dark.One** » 06 Jun 2010, 22:08

There are no commercial imports as you need a licence to do so (although you don't need one to own them). They tend to come in by personal collectors.

As far as I am aware there are no madtoms established in native waters.

nvcichlids · Post by **nvcichlids** » 07 Jun 2010, 05:04

Thursday of this week I will get pictures and see if someone can tell me if they are mature or not. I know atleast one is (its 3"+ easily, nice yellow color to it and guards a cave.. guessing male.) My two large juvies are now showing more yellow, but do not have near the size as the adult one. I hope my adult one makes it a few more years. It is good to see the eggs, as I didn't know if they would be yellow, white, green or what.. so I know what to look for.

Also, last night when I flash-lit the cave, the bigger of the two medium sized ones came outof the cave where the bigger one stays. Like I said, I will get pictures of atleast 3 if not all. I plan to redecorate the tank so I will catch them, but them in a breeder container at the top and snap away (may use a 5.5 gallon to shoot them in as well!

My black madtoms I have not have problems with, but then again, they are kept at my parents house and when I go home I periodically find smaller and smaller ones assuming they are breeding.

And larry, I think its great that the info I am getting is coming from over seas. That is not what I was expecting, but info on these is great none the less.

Thanks again guys.

Nate

Post by **Birger** » 07 Jun 2010, 05:43

My black madtoms I have not have problems with, but then again, they are kept at my parents house and when I go home I periodically find smaller and smaller ones assuming they are breeding.

Do not forget to take pictures of these, juvi's as well ...I would like to see.

The.Dark.One · Post by **The.Dark.One** » 07 Jun 2010, 10:25

The man who I got them off had them breeding. He had lots of youngsters in the tank when he was catching them out to pass on to me.

nvcichlids · Post by **nvcichlids** » 07 Jun 2010, 15:11

Birger wrote:
My black madtoms I have not have problems with, but then again, they are kept at my parents house and when I go home I periodically find smaller and smaller ones assuming they are breeding.
Do not forget to take pictures of these, juvi's as well ...I would like to see.

I do not know the next time I will be up at my parents residence.. as they live hours away and tis' the busy season at work for me

but the next time I am up there I will for you!

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 07 Jun 2010, 20:42

I am becoming more interested in trying to breed these tadpole Madtoms as I keep reading these posts. I do have some problems with high temperatures but if I set them up in my unheated cellar that just might work. The waste heat from the hot water tank keeps the winter cellar temperatures in the low 40's*F temps and this would be one case where buying an automatic fish feeder would make taking care of them easier. I have a floor drain which would make water changes easy. I think a diet of mainly earthworm sticks would be fine in general but as it warms up in the spring I can use more black worms or culture red wriggler worms to help with conditioning.( I could use a culture of red wrigglers anyway for my other fish) It does get very hot here during the summers so their water may reach the mid 80's*F for a few months but I found the brooding males in a cut off side channel(slough) off the main river and it had high water temperatures in these shallow pools. So they may be well adapted for the few months of warmer summer time high temperatures.

NV, you have your black madtoms in an outdoor pond at your parent's house don't you?

Post by **Birger** » 08 Jun 2010, 00:36

The waste heat from the hot water tank keeps the winter cellar temperatures in the low 40's*F temps

That is one thing I cold not do this year...I had no way of dropping the temperature of mine, if I still have them next year I will have to figure out something, if a temp drop is actually needed for a spawn. This year mine have not shown any urges yet.

Birger

nvcichlids · Post by **nvcichlids** » 08 Jun 2010, 03:57

apistomaster wrote:
NV, you have your black madtoms in an outdoor pond at your parent's house don't you?

They were in there, then my parents noticed an increase this year in activity around the pond, so the pond this summer only has sunfish sp and three bullhead.

The black madtoms are in a 60 gallon breeder for the time being... still trying to purchase a house to get everything moved in with me

The.Dark.One · Post by **The.Dark.One** » 08 Jun 2010, 11:23

The eggs were attached together in a mass. The male stayed in the cave and he moved them about and 'mouthed' them a lot.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 08 Jun 2010, 21:37

The.Dark.One wrote:The eggs were attached together in a mass. The male stayed in the cave and he moved them about and 'mouthed' them a lot.

Hopefully if they spawn again, the male will not move and mouth them so much that all the eggs are eaten.

The.Dark.One · Post by **The.Dark.One** » 08 Jun 2010, 23:55

apistomaster wrote:
The.Dark.One wrote:The eggs were attached together in a mass. The male stayed in the cave and he moved them about and 'mouthed' them a lot.
Hopefully if they spawn again, the male will not move and mouth them so much that all the eggs are eaten.

To be honest it looked more like he was doing it to keep them fungus free.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 09 Jun 2010, 01:00

I do not doubt that the male was providing normal brood care. I only meant it did eventually eat the eggs so that is what I meant by saying he may have over done his job.

When brooding, fish find something out of place in their breeding tank or setting, they often eat their eggs.
Discus do this sort of thing all the time and not infrequently neophyte brooding males of Ancistrini eat their first brood.
It is usually useless to ask why fish do what they do and about all one can hope is that with experience, the fish will have future outcomes which are more productive.

nvcichlids · Post by **nvcichlids** » 09 Jun 2010, 16:34

i witnessed a behavior I have not noticed before. I put a krill container burried into the rocks for a possible breeding site. The largest one has called this home from day 1. Last night, the other "smaller" ones tried to join it in the cave, but it would flare out its gills and make itself look much larger and would then scare the others away... does this mean I have 3 of the same sex?

The.Dark.One · Post by **The.Dark.One** » 09 Jun 2010, 18:00

nvcichlids wrote:i witnessed a behavior I have not noticed before. I put a krill container burried into the rocks for a possible breeding site. The largest one has called this home from day 1. Last night, the other "smaller" ones tried to join it in the cave, but it would flare out its gills and make itself look much larger and would then scare the others away... does this mean I have 3 of the same sex?

Possibly. Only way to tell for sure is to sex them using the paper I sent, but be careful if you handle them!!

nvcichlids · Post by **nvcichlids** » 09 Jun 2010, 21:49

i might attempt it this afternoon... wish me luck!

nvcichlids · Post by **nvcichlids** » 10 Jun 2010, 01:29

: Madtom 1

: Madtom2

: Largest Madtom (madtom 3)

I do not know if these pictures help at all

I couldn't tell and I don't even know if I got a picture of their genitalia.

nvcichlids · Post by **nvcichlids** » 10 Jun 2010, 01:35

: Largest (madtom 3); RSCN4733.JPG (38.58 KiB) Viewed 5914 times

: Largest (madtom3 pre tank revamp (murky water lol)); RSCN4735.JPG (41.66 KiB) Viewed 5914 times

Just two more shots of the large one.

The.Dark.One · Post by **The.Dark.One** » 10 Jun 2010, 18:32

nvcichlids wrote:
I do not know if these pictures help at all I couldn't tell and I don't even know if I got a picture of their genitalia.

Hi
No they don't help as the ventral fins are covering the area up

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 10 Jun 2010, 19:48

NV,

Don't you think it would be better to try to work with a larger group?
These seem like they would be a good candidate for a species tank along the same lines as the Plecos. This might provide some useful info in general which might be possible to apply to madtoms.http://aquanic.org/publicat/usda_rac/ef ... 1802fs.pdf

This was also interesting.
2 to 3 female per male sex ratios seem to be optimum.
Again, much like plecos. It seems competition between females for access to available males may be desirable, I do not know if a male will spawn in succession with more than one female but it has happened regularly among common bushy nose I have had.
http://www.uaex.edu/aquaculture2/FSA/FSA9009.htm

nvcichlids · Post by **nvcichlids** » 11 Jun 2010, 03:55

Larry, as of right now I have only caught 4 of these, so that is why I am stuck with 4. As soon as I find more, they will be added. I would like to have 6-8 total fish if not more, but after i found the 1, then the 3 the followign trip I hadn't caught any more

. I may attempt to go back out sunday morning as I have not found any after 10 am either.

I will attempt to sex them again in a couple of months, allowing the younger ones to grow and mature some more. They seemed to get more comfortable the more I attempted to hold them. Maybe if I can start hand feeding they will become more tame and easier to hold for sexing.

Edit: After looking at the article from Larry, slit for girls, nub for boys... seems like common sense lol.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 11 Jun 2010, 05:14

Well it is cool that you can at least collect some once in awhile. If you can find some slough under a bridge where people might throw empty cans into it you may get lucky and find a brooding male inside some container caring for some eggs. I found one with a clutch of eggs when I discovered they were even present in any part of the Columbia River Basin. I was only beginning to keep fish about then but I knew they were special. I now realize how fortunate to have found 3 or 4 in that warm slough during June or July. Later on a caught a couple smaller specimens from that small stream, Sweetwater Creek, on the Nez Perce Reservation the nest year. I know now that they are quite rare here.

I think that most of the information about the aquaculture of Channel Cats would apply well to these Tadpole Madtoms. It may take a year to work in the winter "rest" period followed by an abundant conditioning period feeding them fresh chopped fish and small worms but by then you may have enough specimens to work with a couple pairs or trios. I think they may follow the channel cat breeding behavior very closely since the Bullheads seem to be very similar from what I have seen. I have seen males guarding very large schools of jet black fry in sloughs which became cut off from the main river during low water. Madtom catfishes small size makes breeding them in an aquarium very likely to succeed. Having them in a group setting should work pretty well. I guess I am optimistic about your chances of breeding them are very good for next season. I think you will need more luck in order to accomplish it this season. Finding enough females may only be possible by capturing and raising a large enough group of yearlings this year in order to end up with enough for a breeding group next season.

My coolest place is likely to be too warm during July and August highs.
Given enough space and good aeration I might be able to keep them alive through the hottest months but I think it would be close to the limits of their tolerance but I do think they have to be survivors if they managed to become established after being accidentally introduced into what is a primarily salmon and trout river system. The construction of a series of hydroelectric dams and reservoirs provided more warm water habitat which may be why they managed to hang on.
I would need to buy 10 or 12 in order to have a good chance of getting a proper breeding group. Sometimes I wish I was a kid again and could turn over a lot of rocks in a couple of our small, warmer creeks. The Madtoms are pretty rare but given enough time and perhaps a permit to set fish traps, I might be able to find enough but in the end it would be cheaper to buy them.

nvcichlids · Post by **nvcichlids** » 11 Jun 2010, 20:24

Weather outlook: Rain all weekend.

That isn't a good thing as if this river is higher than normal, the best spots to find them will no longer have them...

nvcichlids · Post by **nvcichlids** » 13 Jun 2010, 05:00

Well tomorrow is a no go. I will go out on tuesday and friday *(both days before work) if weather is permitting. i will also take some pictures of the area to show where i have been finding them.

nvcichlids · Post by **nvcichlids** » 14 Jun 2010, 22:22

Just an update, my large madtom and the biggest of the smaller were in the cave last night together, didn't notice any eggs, but the big one covers up most of the cave bottom.

Its supposed to rain tomorrow, but I will be attempting to go out because its the only one of two days I will be able to attempt it this week!

How to tell if a Tadpole Madtom is Mature? FRY PICTURES!!!

How to tell if a Tadpole Madtom is Mature? FRY PICTURES!!!

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