Cory Hybrids

[AndiH]

I know this is a dangerous topic, but its one that has made me very curious. My favorite fish are corys and Endlers Livebearers. ELBs are considered either very endangered or extinct their home ranges. There are many people that breed hybrids off them, guppy x ELB. Of course there are many that breed pure ELBs.

I am not sure why there is such a horror and stigma attached to corys. The lack of anything saying which species will crossbreed makes it very difficult to know what can be put together. For example, I want to put pandas in with C. schultzei (black). Will they breed? Will any progeny be fertile? If they do breed, why would it be wrong to sell/give the progeny away if I make it clear they are hybrids?

I'm not trying to start an argument, just trying to understand the differing viewpoints regarding different species.

[Richard B]

I just can't begin to write a proper response.....just don't go there!

[cawnov]

DO NOT CREATE HYBRIDS PLEASE. They are like garbage and you know where that belongs.........
Nothing personal..

[Coryologist]

................

[Dave Rinaldo]

I
The lack of anything saying which species will crossbreed makes it very difficult to know what can be put together. For example, I want to put pandas in with C. schultzei (black). Will they breed? Will any progeny be fertile? If they do breed, why would it be wrong to sell/give the progeny away if I make it clear they are hybrids?

I'm not trying to start an argument, just trying to understand the differing viewpoints regarding different species.

AndiH (also) was asking what Corydoras spp. can breed with another as that info doesn't seem to be reported here.

[AndiH]

Thank you Dave, I was.

To be clear, I'm not saying I want to breed hybrids. I am just asking why it would be so horrible if they were bred on accident.... given there are no clear and easily accessible lists or tables of what cory sp will breed together.
Apparently no one is willing to explain their reasoning and instead wish to give blatant rules and act like I (and any others wondering) are monsters for trying to understand. So much for this being an informational forum.

[MatsP]

Let's start with: I don't see ANY reason why anyone would WANT to breed hybrid corys.

As a general rule, it appears that corys do NOT cross breed naturally, and if kept in groups of their own kind, even those that do, rarely will do - if they do with hormones, I'm not entirely sure. There was a post some time ago from a Czech member that listed some of the species that are indeed known to hybridize. I'll try to find it.

I'd expect if they do breed together, the offspring will indeed (and unfortunately) be fertile.

But please, please, please: Do not do this!

--
Mats

[Suckermouth]

Apparently no one is willing to explain their reasoning and instead wish to give blatant rules and act like I (and any others wondering) are monsters for trying to understand. So much for this being an informational forum.

Indeed, I am disappointed that this is the reaction to an honest question. However, we have discussed hybrids several times before.

Here, for example:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =2&t=27608

There are a few major points I can see against hybrids:
1. Hybrids are unnatural, and with the great diversity of natural species, why produce hybrids?
2. Hybrids make identification a pain. Many species that can hybridize are difficult enough to distinguish without the presence of hybrids. When you have crosses between all the species the number of possible identities increase dramatically.
3. If I want a natural species, how can I guarantee that it is pure and I am getting what I want if hybrids are on the market? This partially goes along with difficulty of identification. If I want a pure Endler's Livebearer, for example, how would I find one when many are actually hybrids?

[davidkozak]

Many of the people on the forum here find the idea of creating hybrids offensive. Perhaps they're following the "if you can't think of anthing nice to say, don't say anything at all".. Why don't you do a forum search? Just punching in the word hybrid returns over 1800 posts. All of those won't be about corydoras, but will answer your questions. Sorry, but saying this forum "isn't informative" just because people aren't responding to your questions when all the answers are here with a little effort on your part is just plain ignorant. David

[AndiH]

Thank you for the explanations. They do indeed make sense. I've tried to find somplace that says if C panda and C schultzei are cross fertile, but can find nothing.

As for doing a search, I have a few times here and elsewhere on the web and while I didn't read everything I read a fair bit. All I came up with is: Don't do it. For me knowing the reason(s) for any rule or norm is 3/4 the battle. I will repeat I never said I wanted to breed hybrids. I do want to keep the two species above in the same tank but haven't been able to find out if they could hybridize.

[Richard B]

I think the reason you can't find information if certain species being viable to hybridise is because no-one knows as no one has attempted it because no-one would want to!

[davidkozak]

What's the deal with all the albino peppered corys and albino aeneus that pop up in pet stores?? Is that a case of someone getting some albinos from mutations and line breeding or is that from hybridizing? David

[Richard B]

Albinos are the same as the ordinary coloured ones within that species - there is no hybridisation involved.

Are peppered bred as albinos now? The ones that used to show up were aeneus incorrectly labelled. I've seen albino bronze & sterbai quite often

[MatsP]

Albinos are the same as the ordinary coloured ones within that species - there is no hybridisation involved.

Are peppered bred as albinos now? The ones that used to show up were aeneus incorrectly labelled. I've seen albino bronze & sterbai quite often

I'm pretty sure that albino peppered DO exist. But I'm also pretty sure they aren't commonly available (I certainly haven't actually seen one in real life).

And yes, albino is a fairly common feature in captive bred species that are easy to breed - this applies to corys, plecos and many other forms of fish. It's technically a defect in the production of colour (melanin) - there are probably several steps in this process that can possibly "break" - most colour substances are for example very sensitive to slight alterations in the chemical compound, so melanin will not be brown if you alter it's chemistry a little bit.

--
Mats

[davidkozak]

I'm trying to find pictures but have so far been unable to. I had a small group of longfin C. paleatus several years back that would throw regular, albino, longfin regular, and longfin albino fry. I no longer own the fish either, so too late to snap new pictures. David

[Jools]

So much for this being an informational forum.

Look, what happened here is someone, out of the blue, asks, at best, a very leading question on a topic they appear to know is close to taboo. We all think you're a troll and react accordingly, you would not be the first. If your post had been worded along the lines of "I don't want to do this and I know its wrong" then you might have got some debate.

As to the comment I've quoted above, I think you're due all the hard working people who give their time to help out on this site for no reward something of an apology. I run this site and all the mods give their time to oversee it and it is informative. You should take the time to read what is here rather than expect it to be served up on a plate for you. Or do you think the "service" we offer is to take all the accumulated knowledge in the forum and serve it up fresh every time someone asks a question that hasn't been asked before?

Jools

[Coryologist]

I'm pretty sure that albino peppered DO exist. But I'm also pretty sure they aren't commonly available (I certainly haven't actually seen one in real life). Mats

Hi Mats. Albino C. paleatus are very common here. I used to breed them by the hundreds and made quite a bit of dosh, doing it, until Ian let me have it. lol.

I do miss the money, but I also sleep much better at night, knowing that I am not a party to creating any "Frankenfish." Perhaps this photo will help explain why Ian was so opposed to my breeding and selling them. BTW - if you look closely at the side shot - I believe you are able to discern the iridescent markings of C. paleatus. Cheers, Frank

P.S. The top photo is labeled incorrectly. Ian saw these fish in person, while visiting me and confirmed them as C. paleatus.

[The.Dark.One]

A couple I know have been breeding albino paleatus for some time. In fact they turn up at our auctions on a regular basis. And as someone has already pointed out - that isn't hybridisation.

[mummymonkey]

I think corys cross rather more easily than is often thought. I've had bilineatus x nijsseni and a friend has axelrodi x metae. Obviously the closer they are related to each other the more likely they are to cross but there have been some fairly unlikely crosses also.

If in doubt, just keep a single species in each tank or at least keep those of the same group apart.

[Coryman]

AndiH,

I have been keeping and breeding Corys for more than thirty five years and have never as yet produced a hybrid by accident or by design, I do keep several groups of species together in some of my larger stock tanks, which would give the opportunity for hybridisation to occur, but it never has. I did try a long time ago to cross C. rabauti and C. zygatus in an attempt to determine the validity of the two species, but no matter which combination's or triggers I tried no cross matings were ever achieved.

Many of the reports that I have seen of hybridisation incidents have been when there has been a single specimen of a specie or a group of the same sex of a species in a tank with another species. The odd fish or single sex group, if sexually mature and in breeding mode, could become involved with a legitimate breeding group. In most cases if two or more species are kept together and there are both sexes present in each specie group then hybridisation is very unlikely.

There are however individuals and professional breeders in some parts of the world that take great pride in making hybrids. This is the activity that is frowned and which causes a lot of heated debate.

With in the region of 350 Cory species I personally fail to see the need for such activity and do campaign vigorously against the practice.

Regarding albinism, this is something that does occur naturally in Corydoradinae as well as many other groups of fishes. These are are not hybrids, some may very well be man induced through hormone or other artificial means.

There are at least 8 species with albino variants that have been on the market in recent years, below are images of just four.

C. paleatus (albino)

Image courtesy Ian Fuller & Corydorasworld.com

C. aeneus (albino)

Image courtesy Ian Fuller & Corydorasworld.com

C. sterbai (albino)

Image courtesy Ian Fuller & Corydorasworld.com

S. barbatus

Image courtesy Ian Fuller & Corydorasworld.com

I have also seen C. panda, C. napoensis, A. fuscogutatus and C. similis.

Ian

[apistomaster]

It seems like albinos always show up sooner or later among any highly inbred group of a species but the appearance of the long fins seems almost as inevitable although I do not understand this phenomena as well as I do the emergence of albinism.
We have long fins among several Corydoras species, Rams(Mikrogeophagus ramirezi), Angelfish, White Cloud Minnows, Common Bushy Noses, Rosy Barbs, Neon Tetras, Black Tetras, Serpae Tetras, Swordtails, Mollies, Guppies, Koi Carp and Goldfish. I am sure I have missed other examples.

[Richard B]

I am sure I have missed other examples.

Oscars, Dempseys.....

[racoll]

I am sure I have missed other examples.

Slightly derailing the conversation, I'm not sure if I ever got round to posting this abomination?

Back to topic, man-made hybrids are bad in the trade because:

1. They don't reflect nature
2. They make identifying fish very hard
3. They reduce the variety of real fish available in the trade for serious hobbyists
4. They may be unpredictable in terms of care or temperament
5. They are often infertile, so inadvertently purchasing them may ruin a breeding project
6. Female fish often have to be injected and then sacrificed in the hormone treatments
7. They can be released into the wild and may interfere with the genetics of wild populations
8. Why do it, when nature can create much nicer species?

I'm sure there are more reasons...

Essentially, it is not easy to create hybrids and just keeping different, "hybridisable", species together is unlikely to result in them unless you really try.

If they hybridise by accident, then either cull them, or keep them for yourself but be sure to not pass them on the other aquarists, or worse, shops.

[AndiH]

I was out of town a couple days and was pleasantly surprised to see the newer posts. I do fail to understand why anyone would go so far as hormone treatments on fish. I guess that its just a different viewpoint regarding different species of fish.

I am relieved to see your post Coryman and I think I'll risk putting C schultzi and C panda together. I am planning on having 6 of each at the least and will work for different sexes. As has been said, I will keep anything that results though since I don't intend trying to save eggs it likely isn't a problem.


As for everyone else, sorry for the way my frustration showed through. I have indeed spent quite a bit of time looking for information on those specific species with no results and then to find out that apparently ELB hybrids are accepted... to someone pretty new to the world of aquarium it can be very confusing.

[racoll]

apparently ELB hybrids are accepted

What are ELB hybrids?

[Dave Rinaldo]

What are ELB hybrids?

First post.........

I know this is a dangerous topic, but its one that has made me very curious. My favorite fish are corys and Endlers Livebearers. ELBs are considered either very endangered or extinct their home ranges. There are many people that breed hybrids off them, guppy x ELB. Of course there are many that breed pure ELBs.

[Suckermouth]

He is referring to Endler's Livebearers.

[racoll]

Thanks Dave and Milton.

I have indeed spent quite a bit of time looking for information on those specific species with no results and then to find out that apparently ELB hybrids are accepted... to someone pretty new to the world of aquarium it can be very confusing.

Why do you say the are "accepted"?

[AndiH]

Because they are. The biggest breeders will breed both pure wild strains and hybrids. There is a system for telling what is what. N is for pure wild that can be traced back to a reliable source. K is for hybrids. P is for those that look like pure wild stock, but can't be traced back.

[racoll]

Because they are.

Depends what you mean by "accepted".

Syno hybrids are not really accepted by the users of PlanetCatfish, but they are still manufactured in huge numbers.

There aren't many serious hobbyists that agree with the production of hybrids.

I guess most of the people who buy them don't even realise they are hybrids.

I feel they would probably rather have the real thing, if the price was right.