Clown Loach??????

[highoctane500]

Hi,
This is probably not the right site for a Clown Loach topic, but i thought id ask anyway!

I recently bought 4 small Clown Loach as i was told they would sort out my snail problem. All seemed happy in thier new home until 1 of them started to "float" arount the tank bent in a half moon shape on its side getting blown around by the filter and banging into things. I left it for a day or so untill i couldnt watch him keep hitting things anymore. So i took him out and put him out of his apparent misery. Now 3 days later another 1 is doing the exact same thing!! What could be wrong? They all were happy eaters and none showed any signs of stress or disease. I know these fish do some funny things like "sleep" on thier sides and "play dead", but this does not look normal. Any ideas?

[MatsP]

I agree, that doesn't sound normal at all.

Not sure what can be done or what the actual problem is.

--
Mats

[exasperatus2002]

They have been known to lay on their side like their sleeping but somethings wrong with yours. Sorry Im not sure what. What are your water conditions, temp, ph, ammonia/nitrite levels...ect. Do they seem emaciated or bloated? Any red streaks in the fins? Post a pic if you can, it'll help us help you.

[thijs]

Try http://forums.loaches.com/ they are very knowledgable about loaches!

[highoctane500]

No, no signs of bloating or disease. He does eat if i dangle bloodworm right under his nose. I will test the water and post the conditions as soon as i get in. And il try to get a picture on aswell. But surely if the conditions were wrong then they all would show the same symptoms? There is also 9 Gouramis and 2 Plecs in there with them and they are all fine. Quite strange!!
I cant believe that these are the only fish that this has happened to. Someone must know something? Even if (like me) they didnt know what was going on, what was the final outcome?

[highoctane500]

I think i might have found the problem. Just tested the water and the results are as follows: Temp-26.C, PH-7.8, Ammonia-0, Nitrite-0, Nitrate-80ppm!
Apart from water changes is there anything i can do to reduce this ASAP? Im just about to do a water change now.
Thanks

[JEK]

Do you have the loaches in that 90l tank that is way overstocked with those other cats (referring to the other thread)? If so, there is nothing you can do besides frequent waterchanges. Reducing the load in the tank by cutting down feeding is also an option but it ofcourse means fewer fish. (If you are not overfeeding them). I strongly recommend getting MUCH bigger tank. On my tanks I try to keep nitrate level under 20ppm which means 50% waterchange in every 7-9 days. Even if my stocking levels are kinda low. For example in my 200l I keep 3 L134, 3 L010a, 25(ish) blue emperor tetras.

[highoctane500]

No, they are in a 130 Litre tank with 9 Gouramis and 2 plecs. Thats all (apart from a load of snails which is the reason i was recomended getting the loach). I have 3 tanks in total: This 130L (which was originally a species tank), a 90L (the overstocked one) and a 10L fry tank with 15 baby platys. I do a 20L water change on both tanks every week.

[racoll]

Looks like you were given some pretty poor advice highoctane500.

Your tank isn't ideal for a group of clown loaches. The loach folk recommend a minimum 250 litre aquarium, going up to 750 litres for adults.

They should also never be recommended for treating snail "problems". These snail infestations are almost always caused by chronic overfeeding and/or algal issues. They don't just multiply if they have no food supply.

The overfeeding might also explain the very high nitrate levels, and the sickly behaviour of the loaches. Your resident fish will probably be acclimated to the high nitrate levels, but this degree of pollution will certainly affect newly added fish badly.

Keep changing water daily until levels reach same as tapwater.

Hope this helps.

[Suckermouth]

They should also never be recommended for treating snail "problems". These snail infestations are almost always caused by chronic overfeeding and/or algal issues. They don't just multiply if they have no food supply.

My plecs are provided regular vegetable food that is left in the tank over some time, and of course the snails get a little piece of the action. The loaches I added made quick work out of them. However, having that kind of continuous food supply shouldn't be a problem in most tanks.

The overfeeding might also explain the very high nitrate levels, and the sickly behaviour of the loaches. Your resident fish will probably be acclimated to the high nitrate levels, but this degree of pollution will certainly affect newly added fish badly.

Keep changing water daily until levels reach same as tapwater.

What racoll is describing here is called "Old Tank Syndrome" by some, and it's a likely reason for what you're seeing.

[highoctane500]

I am now down to 2 Loaches. The other 2 still look very lively and healthy.
Im not sure if i over feed them, they seem to make light work of whatever i put in there. Weather it be flake, pellets, bloodworm or algae wafer. And there is never any waste food left on the bottom. And there is almost no algae thanks to the Plecs. I also have 4 or 5 live plants in there, which is where the snails mostly are.
I have seen some "anti snail" treatment in the shop, but i didnt really want to solve problems by adding chemicals. Same story with the nitrate, they also have nitrate reducing treatment. Is it safe to use so many treatments all at once?
Tested my tap water for nitrate, and it is about 10 - 15ppm, which im sure is not helping. I think im going to have to invest in an RO filter.
Also what is "Old Tank Syndrome"?
Thanks!!

[MatsP]

Old tank syndrome is the "name" of the scenario where your tank appears to do fine, but any new introductions of fish is nearly always doomed.

This is caused by the water quality having deteriorated to such an extent that new fish dies pretty immediately, but the fish that has lived there for a long time (and thus slowly adapted/"naturally selected") are used to the conditions and live "happily".

The main side of this is probably nitrate, but an old tank can also have really low pH. A lot of fish tolerates lower pH than most people expect, but they will not tolerate very sudden or large changes in pH.

--
Mats

[racoll]

How many snails do you have exactly, and are they actually a problem? I see snails as an essential part of a functioning tank. They graze algae and eat the microscopic bits of food that fish don't eat. I add them deliberately to every new tank. Of course when there is a plague of them, this means something is going wrong, and it is usually overfeeding.

I have seen some "anti snail" treatment in the shop, but i didnt really want to solve problems by adding chemicals. Same story with the nitrate, they also have nitrate reducing treatment. Is it safe to use so many treatments all at once?

There is absolutely no need for these chemical remedies in my opinion. Most problems can be resolved without chemicals. I can't even remember the last time I added this kind of thing to any tank.

Tested my tap water for nitrate, and it is about 10 - 15ppm, which im sure is not helping. I think im going to have to invest in an RO filter.

Absolutely no need either. Low levels of nitrate are fine for the kind of tank-bred fishes you are keeping. With regular water changes, you tank water will be just a bit higher than the tapwater, which is fine.

If your nitrates keep rising above about 30ppm, it indicates you are not doing enough water changes, and are likely to be overstocked and/or overfeeding.

[Richard B]

Just a further thought.... there are a lot of small, poor quality clown loach out there being offered for sale. Poor quality stock always starts keepers off at a disadvantage.

[MatsP]

I would echo Racoll's statement about chemicals: If your nitrate level is high, then more water changes are needed. If the fish are very sensitive to nitrate, you may need to get water that doesn't have as much nitrate as your tap-water (but you're much better off than me - my levels are about 35ppm). But if your tank-water is high in nitrate, it means make more water changes.

And the best course of action for snails is to not feed the fish as much. Hungry fish may also nibble on the soft baby snails - but not if there is plenty of other food available. If it's a big problem, manual removal is also an option. I probably feed some of my tanks a bit too much, because I remove snails every now and again when I think "there are too many".

--
Mats

[highoctane500]

Thanks for all your help everyone!!
I think im on top of the nitrate now. Ive been doing daily water changes and its on its way down now. And as for the snails, i only wanted rid of them because they are unsightly in the tank. But i guess they can stay if i keep thier numbers down.
Both my Loaches still look very happy. I will get them a couple more buddies when the water is stable again.
Thanks again for all your help!!!