L46 and the Belo Monte dam

[celticfish]

Just as quick as the good news comes... check here

[Mike_Noren]

A judge overturns a court decision THE DAY AFTER the original decision?

Hahahahahaha the Brazilian government isn't even pretending to be following its own laws any more!

[Suckermouth]

That was unexpectedly quick.

[Bas Pels]

Incredible. But investers don't like this kind of 'justice' because they know, the next time they are on the recieving end

The dam is still less probable then is was a week ago - but I do hate that 'judge'

[Janne]

Yes, it's incredible... stupid.

Janne

[bronzefry]

I read it in the NY Times this morning and had a good cry. The judge in Brasilia stated something to the effect that the economy comes before native peoples. How Orwellian.

If we meet, Janne, ask me about the time I worked on Boston's Big Dig. I never worked civil engineering again, after that. I would rather go hungry.
Amanda

[Janne]

If the economy come in the first place, they should not allowe the Belo Monte project like the project is constituted, every one knows they have to build 4-5 water reservoir's (holding dams) upstreams in Rio Xingu to make the Belo Monte hydroelectric plant able to produce the calculated amount of energy per year... if not it's a financial disaster also.

These other dam's is not even mentioned in this first auction or paper... probably to avoid even worse reactions from the opinion against the project. I think this is not over yet, Brazilian government are breaking their own laws and they don't care if the Belo Monte project is good or bad... there are other reasons behind this.

Janne

[andywoolloo]

well, that good news was very short lived.

[Jools]

The economy can mean different things here. It may mean a shortage of money, but it also may mean hundreds of jobs. Hundreds of jobs gives you thousands of voters. It also gives you hundreds of people with wages and that bolster the economy, at least in the short term.

If it were a game of football, I'd say it was 3-1 in the 55th minute without any substitutes made but a flurry of yellow cards.

Jools

[Janne]

Yeh, it means 100.000 job in a place without any infrastructure at all, when they reach break even it's time to scrap the whole power plant. President Lula da Silva will not live that day... he will not even be the president when the dam is finished... but he can probably be a rich man when he retire.

Janne

[Mike_Noren]

The economy can mean different things here

It means "the personal economy of a handful of construction company owners, local land owners, and politicians". And, it would appear, at least one judge.

[plecoboy]

Are there any organizations like Greenpeace involved?

[Jools]

Are there any organizations like Greenpeace involved?

Read from the top, there is some discussion of this earlier.

Jools

[Taratron]

So...any links to known breeders of L46? It sounds like the captive zebras may be the last on global waters.

[soltarii007]

Yeah Janne, he will probably step down after the money is paid out to the private sector from government coffers... Retire happily without suffering the environmental and socio-political fallout. Run Lula run!

[bronzefry]

He's not running again.

[MatsP]

I know several of you have already signed, but there is a Petition here:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/save-x ... estruction

This needs a bit of "viral marketing", I think.

And this:
http://www.facebook.com/CaptainKeyes#!/ ... 721?ref=ts

--
Mats

[catfish-john]

Hi Janne,

I only jumped on this thread very recently and have read my way through most of the postings in the meantime.
I very much appreciate your hard work and really hope you will never get tired of fighting the Belo Monte Dam Project!

Some time back you indicated that you work on the implementation of a breeding program for the L46...
Again, I very much appreciate your engagement for the L46 and many other species in the endangered part of Rio Xingu.
Can you please give some detail as to what you have achieved so far and how you see keepers around the world supporting this idea?

I know from various trips to Malawi that Stuart W. Grant was very successful in initiating breeding programs for endemic cichlid species that are rare in the lake, and collecting more of them to satisfy overseas demand would have eradicated them in the wild since long.

Best regards
catfish-John

[Janne]

I think I will write an article for PC about breeding projects in Brazil, it's very complicated and difficult due the bureaucracy, the low knowledge and the cultural differencies, even some laws prevent conservation efforts in Brazil. It's not easy to explain in few lines here in the forum.

Janne

[MatsP]

Janne,

That would be great.

--
Mats

[macvsog23]

As we debate this dam and the outcome could we in the west not ask why it is being built?

A simple answer is that as the trade in cheap goods increases the people who would eat meat once a week now want meat once a day so the farmers need to produce more meat than means they need cheap feed that means they need to deforest areas of the Amazon to grow Soya to feed cattle
That means they need people to grow the Soya
These people want electricity
They build a dam

Next time we buy a nice cheap t shirt think.
Natural we should still try to stop this destruction but just think more people = more destruction.
Reduce the population reduce the damage.

Regards

[MatsP]

Actually, it's not so much (in this case) about soya, corn for feeding cattle or the farming of cattle for meat, but rather about cheap aluminium (for wherever aluminium is uses, engines for cars and motorbikes, drinks cans or frames for double-glazed windows are but a few examples).

And don't be fooled into thinking that the production of electricity will benefit those local to the dam - they will only see the wires up high in the sky (if they get close enough to see that).

--
Mats

[catfish-john]

I think I will write an article for PC about breeding projects in Brazil, it's very complicated and difficult due the bureaucracy, the low knowledge and the cultural differencies, even some laws prevent conservation efforts in Brazil. It's not easy to explain in few lines here in the forum.

Janne

Hello Janne,
thanks for your prompt response.
Like most forum members here I am not very familiar with Brazilian laws and bureaucracy on breeding projects and therefore much appreciate any additional information you may have which helps widening our understanding.

I wish to be more specific on one point - just as a matter of interest, the brasilian Government obviosly allows & grants licences to local fish collectors for the export of all sorts of wild caught tropical fish species for the enjoyment of fish keepers worldwide.
The Government would make even more money by selling additional licences to professional breeders (in this case identical to fish collectors) to export their local bred fish species to meet worldwide demand.
Such breeding program would dramatically reduce the number of species collected from their natural habitat and at the same time make available plenty of ornamental fish of all kinds for export bred under strictly controller and very similar conditions like in their natural habitat.

Look, at some point in time in the future the number of fish species collected from the natural waters will go down towards zero anyway due to over-collection (read: excessively increasing demand world-wide), this dam project and others which will most certainly follow and dramatically changing water qualities due to rising population etc... Wouldn't it come very handy for the Government to still have the extra revenue from licenses granted for breeding programs??

At the end of the day demand for exotic fish species for our aquaria will not stop at a dam project or a species being banned from collection for export. Some eye catching ornamental fish species like the Zebra Pleco will always be on the wish list of keepers around the world. Imagine a suitable and sustainable breeding program in place could create flourishing exports for years to come. Such breeding programs would make sufficient quantities of wish-list fish available to everybody at affordable price and hopefully keeping poaching down at the same time.

The above hopefully doesn't put me in the same drawer with those who want the dam build now. This was not my intention. However, the above idea shows a possible way out of the dramatic development we will be facing in the near future without cutting short on the numbers of our much loved exotic fish species available to the world market. The Government would earn on licenses, local collectors engage in sustainable breeding programs and keep up their income, and the world-wide community of fish keepers would have sufficient numbers of ornamental fish available to chose from.
It's a WIN-WIN situation for everybody involved.

Please feel free to discuss further if you do not agree with me.
May be the members of this and other forums can combine forces and assist you over the distance to reach a goal that could be mutually satisfactory in the end?

With very best regards
Catfish-John

[catfish-john]

To: magvsog23 and MatsP

you guys are certainly well on track with your assumptions. However, there is much more to it.
Think about the TV set every family MUST HAVE as a status symbol, let alone the fridge! Soon they want aircons and not long that they must have washing machine, dryer, freezer and so on.
The dam project brings the world much closer to the locals and as a consequence they develop the wish to live the same way the world lives - as crazy as it sounds but this is the way it goes.
And nothing can stop this development, nothing!

Therefore I consider it vital to secure their jobs and their possibilities to generate income now and in the future. Fish breeding programs are only one of many examples as you certainly will imagine...

Cheers
Catfish-John

[racoll]

Think about the TV set every family MUST HAVE as a status symbol, let alone the fridge! Soon they want aircons and not long that they must have washing machine, dryer, freezer and so on.
The dam project brings the world much closer to the locals and as a consequence they develop the wish to live the same way the world lives

The locals, as far as I know are very much against the dam project. It will kick them out of their homes, and seriously undermine their way of life.

It is driven by big business, and the current Brazilian administration's desire to "industrialise the Amazon basin".

[taksan]

Its a shocker alright ....absolute environmental vandalism on a grand scale.
Worth going to war over IMHO .....

[Bas Pels]

@ Catfish-John

The basic problem with bureaucracy is that it is distrust. If I get a permit to breed fish and than sell them, close to their original origin, how do you know I did breed al lthe fish I intent to sell? I might have collected half of them in the wild - and nobody will know.

In order to be certain, governments tend to prevent such risks.

Stupid, but bureaucracy is stupid

[macvsog23]

Actually, it's not so much (in this case) about soya, corn for feeding cattle or the farming of cattle for meat, but rather about cheap aluminium (for wherever aluminium is uses, engines for cars and motorbikes, drinks cans or frames for double-glazed windows are but a few examples).

And don't be fooled into thinking that the production of electricity will benefit those local to the dam - they will only see the wires up high in the sky (if they get close enough to see that).

--
Mats

Ok so it is aluminium so substitute the word car for food.
In the 1960,s in the UK a small car like the mini cost $500 around 2 years money for the average person, now a car like the mini but with a lot more extras cost around 1/3 of a year’s money for the average person. You think Mr Ford gave it to you cheaper cus he loves you?
Its just plain greed on our part give me more and you will take less.
We need to reduce the amount of waste and greed in the west and the developing world will not need to rape it’s self for us.

[MatsP]

I agree with macsvog on the fact that it's greed that controls this. I'm not entirely sure it's the greed of people buying cars (etc), but probably more greed in big corporations that operate in Brazil that are at play here (which of course is related to our desire for cheaper products in Europe, North America, etc).

And to the "lets breed the fish, that way we don't need to catch fish in the wild", I don't agree with this. Sure,

Hypancistrus zebra

is in danger in the wild due to overfishing (contributed to by their slow reproduction), but in the general sense, assuming the fish is NOT near extinction in the wild due to overfishing for the trade [1], I'd rather buy wild caught fish than the captive bred of the same thing - the reason being that it gives the locals an income from the river/lake. This makes them wish to keep the river/lake in a condition that allows the fish to survive and reproduce, to give them future income. Most people that live close to nature understand that you have to protect the natural resource you make money from...

[1] My understanding is that extremely few fish are under threat from the aquatic trade. They are threatened by habitat loss (e.g. dam projects), introduction of foreign species (rainbowtrout for example) and general industrialization of sensitive areas (dirtying of the water, either in a chemical way [mercury from gold-mines, for example] or by sediments being stirred up) and other human interference with nature. I have discussed this with several people, including a few of the scientists that work with the catfish I love to keep, who have traveled to the areas where some of our fish comes from.

--
Mats

[macvsog23]

Sadly it not is the aquatics trade that is threatening the fish but in my opinion a system were by people exploit the aquatics trade by imposing a ban on species and then allow under the table exporting
As for the greed principle sure the greed of the multi nationals produces more profits and more cash than the greed of the man on the street but it is driven by the man on the street.
If the man on the street did not want a bigger cheaper car then the multi nationals would just make the same car at the same price. We have driven this apocalyptic crazy system.
Greed is what sets us apart from the other animals.
The law of nature says you must F**K, kill and die. We have friends favoured football teams, fluffy jumpers and all the trapping of biological suicide.
It will all end in disaster one day nature will just flick its tail and we will go. Were will our 52” TV be then?