Fishless Cycle Help Pls.

[tbone87]

Greetings fair and just people of planetcatfish forums.

I am currently keeping a 2inch RTC in a 2FT X 1FT X 1FT tank.
Pls dont flame me about tank sizes, and RTC care, I already got plans for this soon to be monster. I love my fish, and I try to take the best care of them.

Back when I just got the tank, I tried to do a traditional cycle. Apparently I did not do it right, or did not wait long enough, my ammonia is still 0.25 ppm currently and i have to do daily water changes.

Here are my questions:

1) Is it possible to successfully do a fishless cycle without seeded material from another tank?

2) When they say do water change after completed cycle, water should be conditioned. Is this just anti chlorine?

I would like to use Microbe-Lift Xtreme. It detoxifies Nitrite, removes ammonia, destroys and removes chloramine, chlorine, metals, skin slime relpacer, adds essential electrolytes and boosts alkalinity.


I hope you proffesionals can show me the proper path. Thx.

[MatsP]

Greetings fair and just people of planetcatfish forums.

You obviously don't know us very well yet ;)
But welcome.

[/quote]
I am currently keeping a 2inch RTC in a 2FT X 1FT X 1FT tank.
Pls dont flame me about tank sizes, and RTC care, I already got plans for this soon to be monster. I love my fish, and I try to take the best care of them.

Back when I just got the tank, I tried to do a traditional cycle. Apparently I did not do it right, or did not wait long enough, my ammonia is still 0.25 ppm currently and i have to do daily water changes.
[/quote]
Given the situation, daily water changes and low levels of feeding is the only solution that is safe to the fish.

Here are my questions:

1) Is it possible to successfully do a fishless cycle without seeded material from another tank?

Yes, the entire purpose of fishless cycle is to establish the bacteria colony in the filter media. If you already have a working filter, then this is obviously not necessary (although if you are setting up a new tank by seeding the filter, it will still take some time to establish the new filter, so slowly building up the stocking level is necessary to not get ammonia or nitrite spikes).
[/quote]
2) When they say do water change after completed cycle, water should be conditioned. Is this just anti chlorine?

I would like to use Microbe-Lift Xtreme. It detoxifies Nitrite, removes ammonia, destroys and removes chloramine, chlorine, metals, skin slime relpacer, adds essential electrolytes and boosts alkalinity.
[/quote]

Sounds like the right thing, although I'm a tad concerned with the "boost alkalinity" - this should only be done if you have low alkalinity in the first place - this is highly variable throughout the world, and your location isn't clear to me - you may want to put at least the country into your location setting under User Control Panel.

I hope you proffesionals can show me the proper path. Thx.

Being very pedantic: I don't think there are many professional fishkeepers on this forum - there are a few people who make money on the fish, but it's not their main source of income. Exceptions do exist, but the vast majority are hobbyists.

--
Mats

[2wheelsx2]

Now that it's done, I would just continue with the water changes and the tank will cycle itself soon enough. The other thing is to check your test kit. Can you tell us how you "cycled" it to begin with?

[tbone87]

Honestly i cycled the tank with knowledge gained from word of mouth.. I placed feeders in the tank for a week, thats all.. Now that i've done alot of research, i would like to know the best method to cycle the tank with the desired fish inside without harming it, if this is even possible. Fyi, my tapwater is neutrL ph. And i have read that some water conditioners actually destroy the bacteria we want in the filter. So far my baby rtc is fine, im able to handfeed it and its very very active at night, when the sun rises it goes afk inside its cave.

[2wheelsx2]

The feeders idea had merit years ago. The weaknesses in it are:

- the fish suffer a bit if you're not looking after the tank with lots of water changes
- what if they have diseases
- what do you do with them afterwards

So as long as you take care of those 3 things, nothing wrong with using a feeder or 2 to start the cycle. The problem in your case is that 1 week was too short. You should have probably waited until you had significant measureable nitrates (like 30 ppm+)

[apistomaster]

Biozyme is cheap and works as well as more expensive preparations. 8 grams, $3.50 treats 500 gal and it works as well as any other more expensive products. These are basically the same as what is used to boost septic tanks. The more expensive preparations aren't any better.

I regard fish-less cycling as mainly as an exercise of one way of doing something, Using an established sponge filter, some plants, a little substrate from another established tank and it will be ready as soon as using any other method. I often use Cherry Shrimp as the first inhabitants since they are sensitive enough to make good canaries in the mine.

There are few intrinsic benefits of one method over another.

[Suckermouth]

One week is far too short for cycling. When I did a starting-from-sterile fishless cycling it took a few weeks, probably around 4, but I don't remember. As Larry pointed out, getting filter media and such from established tanks goes a long way to helping establish your bacterial colony, so if I can I always transfer filter media to help boost a tank. This of course is impossible if you are on your first tank.

When cycling a tank with a fish, you really need to keep on top of the ammonia and nitrites and do appropriate water changes to remove these toxins. As noted, adding a bacterial additive, if you don't have access to filter media, can help to boost the cycle.

[tbone87]

Guys, I appreciate your help thus far.

However I would still like to know, do water conditioners such as the one mentioned in one of my posts kill beneficial bacteria?

I have read (dont know how true it is) that daily water changes (i have to, else my ammonia is too much) will destroy the cycling process. With every 20% water change i condition the water first b4 adding into tank.

So should I stop using conditioner and just use anti chlorine + bottled bacteria from LFS, or just cont the way Im doing it now?

Thx in advance.

[2wheelsx2]

I'm not familiar with the brand, but I can't imagine anything in that conditioner killing off beneficial bacteria. That would pretty much defeat the purpose of water conditioner, wouldn't it?

[Suckermouth]

I am not familiar with that brand of water conditioner either.

Doing water changes won't destroy the cycle, however it will counteract it a little. Bacteria develop due to the ammonia food source, but by doing water changes you will actually remove ammonia, which means there is less food for the bacteria. However, this cannot be helped if you have fish in the tank.

[tbone87]

Guys, thank you very much for the input.

So after reading your replies, I have another question. Should I continue conditioning my water, and also add bottled bacteria? Or would the conditioner and bacteria not mix with each other in any way?

Thx in advance.

[2wheelsx2]

Do you have access to material from a cycled tank? I think that would be the best option. If not, I think the bottle bacteria would certainly help.

[tbone87]

Naw man its my first tank, I think ima get the bottled bacteria ftw.

[apistomaster]

The bacterial additives are not harmed by the water conditions(dechlor/dechloramine).
If you simply added a single raw shrimp about 3 inches long and allow it to decay the cycling process begins. The aquarium is far from sterile and the spores of nitrifying bacteria are ubiquitous to the environment. You allow the shrimp to spoil by bacterial action, 1st a lot of ammonia is produced, then nitrites and finally nitrates. This does not happen in discrete steps. There will be bacterial populations from all the classes involved with the cycling proceeding together and independently. If you do not change the water then the ammonia and nitrites will finally all be converted to nitrates.
You won't really learn until you have finished getting this tank set up but using a bacterial inoculate merely saves about 3 days out of 3 weeks.
You might as well buy a dozen feeder guppies and begin keeping fish and plants then think about buying what you really want after 5 or 6 weeks. Let your red tail catfish eat them. And don't you already have that catfish? If you do then why can't you transfer everything and top off the tank with dechlorinated/dechloraminated water and be done with it?
Fishless cycling, using bacterial inoculates are all a bunch of crap. I don't know why the idea appeals to some people but I guess many people don't understand that cycling an aquarium is about as complicated as letting milk sour to form curds and whey. For that matter, you could cycle an aquarium by adding a tbs of powdered milk. When your tank clears it will be cycled.

[tbone87]

Well just for an update, this is what I've done so far :

1) Did a 25% water change
2) Treated tank with AquaMedi's Bio Bacta and water conditioner.
3) Added a live plant in, I learnt it consumes nitrates and prevents algae boom
4) Lowered water levels by an inch after learning that the water coming out of my HOB filter will hit the water surface harder, thus getting more oxygen into the water.
5) Got a long air stone for the tank.
6) I purchased ammonia, nitrate & nitrite test kits (EXPENSIVE!!), will let the tank run for a few hours first then test.

I would like to know for the live plant, is my room lighting and sunlight pouring in from windows sufficient or do i need to get a special overhead lamp for it?

Thx guys, you have all been too kind entertaining my newbie issues.

[apistomaster]

It would be impossible for anyone to know if your tank receives enough daylight to support plants but there are Mosses, ferns and Anubias species of plants which can grow under low light conditions which in your house may be able to survive on only the available ambient lighting. Only trial and error will tell you whether or not you will require additional lighting. Most of the time it is necessary to supply additional lighting.

[tbone87]

Hey if i posted a picture of the plant here can any1 help me id it?

[2wheelsx2]

Post the pic. I'm sure someone can help. The plant actually complicates things but does ease the cycling process. The complication is that plants preferentially use ammonia, so will actually reduce the ammonia load in the tank, which *may* prolong the cycling process a bit.

[tbone87]

Ok this is crazy, but at first my ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels were fine. But recently they all keep going up, ammonia highest is 0.25ppm, nitrite is a deep purple meaning its in lethal levels, while nitrate is still fine..

What is happening? Or is this just part of the cycling process? I keep having to do partial water changes every 12 hours...

There is a plastic plant and 1 live plant in there, could they be the source? I did soak the plant in water for a few hours in case there were chemicals on it..

Pls help.

[Suckermouth]

Your fish is the source of ammonia, and evidently it's producing more ammonia than the bacteria is handling. If you have no other options, just keep on top of those water changes.

[apistomaster]

Ditto, that.

[tbone87]

Haha its funny how a 2inch fish can be too much for a 15 gallon tank..

I have a 5 gallon spare tank, shld i move him there and cycle the 15 gallon fully?

[MatsP]

Haha its funny how a 2inch fish can be too much for a 15 gallon tank..

I have a 5 gallon spare tank, shld i move him there and cycle the 15 gallon fully?

is the 5 gallon tank cycled? If so, "wash" the filter media from the 5g tank in the 15 gallon tank. If the 5 gallon tank is not cycled, then it's clearly not going to help matters to move the fish from an inadequately cycled large tank to a uncycled small tank - ammonia will just go up even quicker.

It is not that the fish is too much for your tank, the problem is really that your tank isn't cycled - and your fish produces ammonia. 0.25 ppm is 0.25 mg / liter - that is 57 * 0.00025 grams of ammonia, or just under 0.015 grams of ammonia. (57 = 3.8 liter in a gallon * 15 gallons). The amount would be slightly higher if the gallons we're talking of is imperial gallons.

And yes, by doing water changes, it will take longer to grow the ammonia -> nitrite and nitrite -> nitrate bacteria. However, the alternative is to sacrifice the health of the fish for the growth of the nitrobacteria - which is not a good option for the fish! A lower dose over a longer period is more manageable for the fish than a higher concentration over a shorter period.

--
Mats

[tbone87]

Pls dont take this the wrong way, im nt trying to be selfish or lazy. I want to do the move so that the tank cqn cycle faster. Qlthough the 5 gallon is nt cycled, its much easier And cost efficient to do water changes. Plus i was thinking of usin guppies to cycle, once the average 8 weeks of cycling the tank is over my rtc can be put in there with them, he can either be friends, or make them his snack. Haha.

I got no problems doin water chqnge on the 15 gallon, but because of this, i have had to cancel my travel plans. I love my fish too much to let him suffer while i am enjoying..

[Richard B]

For unusual & emergency situations i have had great success using BluuStart from Ferplast. It is essentially a bacteria boost which can rapidly mature systems. It is not a substitute for poor maintenance regimes, but if you can get hold of it, should help you make a good start.

[MatsP]

Pls dont take this the wrong way, im nt trying to be selfish or lazy. I want to do the move so that the tank cqn cycle faster. Qlthough the 5 gallon is nt cycled, its much easier And cost efficient to do water changes. Plus i was thinking of usin guppies to cycle, once the average 8 weeks of cycling the tank is over my rtc can be put in there with them, he can either be friends, or make them his snack. Haha.

It won't make a difference in the "cost" of water changes, as the amount of water change needed to to keep the ammonia produced by your fish will be the same - no matter if the tank volume is 1, 5, 15 or 1500 gallon. The difference will be that in a 5G tank, the concentration will reach dangerous toxic levels of ammonia 3 times faster, so you need to do water changes more frequently to keep the ammonia level at bay. And in a 1500 gallon tank, with such a small fish it will probably not reach dangerous toxic levels at all, but you don't have that option.

--
Mats

[tbone87]

Ok i will keep using the 15 gallons as the pros say. Still it sucks to see no improvement in tank water condition. Oh and if any1 is concerned, my baby rtc is fine, he is still active and still loves to be handfed. =]

Other questions:

Would reducing substrate help? What are ideal substrate levels? Im using the tiny pebbles/gravel.

Would setting up another corner bubble/sponge filter help? It has the black sponge on the outside and small gravel on the inside. Or perhaps i shld get one of those fancy bio filters like bio wheel or smth?

Thx guys, you have all been too kind helping noobs like me.

[Suckermouth]

Reducing substrate will not help. If anything, substrate helps by providing surface area for bacteria to grow on. However, it won't change the rate that bacteria grows.

Getting a new filter will only help in promoting water flow and providing more surface area for bacteria to grow on. This might help bacteria grow by providing more oxygen.

I doubt that either of these will provide a significant boost if your tank is already well-oxygenated/filtered.

[tbone87]

Ah very well, lets not give up and hope the tank cycles itself soon enough.

[tbone87]

Hello again, i have some questions to ask.

I tested my water 12 hours after a 40% water change, ammonia is somewhere btw 0 and 0.25ppm. Nitrite, however, is at its most lethal levels, according to the test kit color code. Nitrates are at acceptable levEls. Is this a sign that the tank is cycling? Its rather puzzling, after i saw that nitrite was high, i did a 50% change.
1 hr later, i tested the water again, nitrite was still the same... Anyone can comment on this pls? Do note that i use water conditioner and bottled bacteria.