Ancistrus Bristlenose many varities and types for sale

[thebirdofprey]

I have for sale several types and color forms of bristlenose ancistrus as listed below. I can mail them to you via the united states postal service. If you are within 2 or 3 states of michigan it will be around $15.00 to mail a box of fish. If you are farther away the cost will increase. Normally west coast cost about $30.00 to ship. shipping is cost of shipping plus $5 for supplies. Let me know if anything interest you I accept paypal. If you are near caro michigan in the thumb of michigan you can also pick the fish up if you would like.

Albino blue eyed longfin L-144 bristlenose 20+ available 1.5 inch $10.00
Calico marbled longfin bristlenose – 10+ available 1.5 inch $8.00
L-144 Albino blue eyed regular fin bristlenose 35 available 1.5 inch $4.00
Calico Marbled Regular fin bristlenose – 15+ available 1 inch $4.00
Ancistrus sp. "Rio Ucayali Gold Spot" bristlenose F1 – Rare 10 available 1.5 inch $8.00
Ancistrus Species Snowflake Very Rare 4 available 1.5 inch $15.00
Ancistrus Species Snowflake adult males $25.00 each 4 available

[thebirdofprey]

I got my ancistrus species snowflakes from swiss tropical out of ohio. If you check their site they have some nice pictures of them and some information about their origin. Very neat dark colored ancistrus. They are also the sellers of Poret foam which is a sponser on this site and has a banner across the top of the page. The following is a link the ancistrus snowflake page on the swiss tropicals page http://www.swisstropicals.com/Ancistrus ... flake.html

[MatsP]

Albino blue eyed longfin L-144 bristlenose 20+ available 1.5 inch $10.00
L-144 Albino blue eyed regular fin bristlenose 35 available 1.5 inch $4.00

Sorry for being extremely pedantic, but these are technically not L144 - they are forms of the common

Ancistrus cf_cirrhosus

. I'd very much doubt that true L144 has ever been available in the US - and certainly not in a long-fin variant. And I'm guessing the short finned ones are also of the same origin.

Anyone interested in buying these fish: Please do not take this as them being less valuable - they are still unusual variations, and I don't think the price is at all bad for what they are. If they were indeed true L144, they would probably be in the triple digit dollar range.

--
Mats

[thebirdofprey]

You the most interesting thing about this - a friend of mine has had L-144 imported from Germany. So I know for sure that L-144 have been imported into the united states. Also I purchased my fish from Sabsdy from Chicago. If you check him out on aquabid he sells some good stuff and is a very knowledgable and trust worthy seller.
Also and most importantly the catalog on this site must be incorrect on the L-144 http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/sp ... ies_id=905 as it shows L-144 that look exactly like what I have. In fact some of fish throw fry that have birth marks just like the ones as shown in the picture on this very site??? So either this site is in fact not correct and needs to be corrected or perhaps I may just have L-144.
Also when I look at my aqualog all L numbers atlas my fish certainly look like the L-144 that are listed in that book.
So lets see the whole there is none of these in the United States is NOT correct. My breeders throw a few fry that have birth marks just like the ones pictured on this very site and my fish look exactly like the ones in the Aqualog atlas. I am not sure were you got your information about these fish just being a variant but I have found nothing to substantiate that and in fact everything that I have found (this sites cat-e-log, The aqualog and internet research says nothing about the variant you are talking about).
Now don't take me the wrong way here. You could be right and these fish may just be variants of some other type of ancistrus. But they may well be true L-144 as well. Saying that none have been imported into the US is erroneous and simply not true at this point. Overall it is relatively easy to have something imported from Europe.
Do you have any online information you could guide us to that might explain about this variant of the fish you claim this to be??? Just curious because if I am wrong I would like to know the truth as I am not trying to mislead anyone I just have found any real evidence to substantiate that any other varieties of bristlenose would throw something that looks like this.

[Dave Rinaldo]

From this thread

Hi,

just a little addition to Mats:
in the meantime, also in Europe "L 144" is the bred variant of the common bristlenose. The real thing is virtually not available any more.
So in essence: no matter where you are, it is extremely likely that any L 144 you are offered is in fact a bred variant of the common bristlenose and has nothing to do with the real L 144.

Cheers, Sandor

There is also this recent post

[thebirdofprey]

So in other words what you are saying is that the information and pictures posted on this sites cat-e-log are not accurate? Shouldn't they perhaps update that and fix that in the cat-elog so that people are not confused by this if this is indeed the case?

[MatsP]

Absolutely, the Cat-eLog needs fixing, which is why I posted in the "Bugs" section that it needs fixing. I can't fix it myself, I need Jools help - I've only known myself for about 4 weeks or so, and your post reminded me that I hadn't done anything to fix it.

I did a quick google for images of L144 - all I could find were "false L144".

--
Mats

[Jackster]

MatsP could you explain to everyone the difference on how to tell a "false" L144 from a real one?

And in defense of the USA, I know for a fact that these fish were imported a long time ago not
just recently. I spawn the very same species and they are nothing like the common Ancistrus,
Albinos or ABN LF. In fact I've kept common Ancistrus, Albinos, and L144 in the same tank and
have never witnessed the L144 cross-breed which makes me pretty sure they are not so closely
related to commons as you claim. I'm not saying they won't interbreed either, but they seem to
have a strong draw to their own species. I also think that as a moderator MatsP that you really
shouldn't make comments like you did on a sellers post. I know you tried to be tactful but in
my opinion your post may sway buyers to believe something that may not be true. I know there
are a lot of self-proclaimed experts here as well as "real" experts but to date nobody has
shown me proof these catfish are not the real L144. I'm going to add that I see posts here
frequently, especially concerning Ancistrus species, where the posters have no idea what they
are talking about and the incorrect information that some posters spew out just adds more
confusion to an already confusing genus. I have one issue with the photos of Ancistrus sp.
"Rio Ucayali" in the Cat-eLog as the wild fish I have received from Peru have orange spots
not white spots with red markings on the pectorals, dorsal, and caudal fins. What's really
funny is L-welse lists the very same fish as L182 and my personal opinion is that it is rather
Ancistrus hoplogenys L059. So here we have a perfect example of two major catfish websites
that don't agree besides the fact that I don't agree with either of them, so who's really right?

http://www.l-welse.com/reviewpost/showp ... 196/cat/44

This is the species I believe is Ancistrus sp. "Rio Ucayali".


I also have what were sold to me as Ancistrus hoplogenys. I also noticed
that these Ancistrus have 7 soft rays and one hard one for a total of 8.




Now I would like to add some "correct" information about the Ancistrus sp. "Snowflake".
I have a few myself that came from Swiss Tropicals and they are beautiful bristlenose.
Steven told me the parents of his breeders were wild caught from Manaus then shipped
to Germany. His breeders are F1 and the fry we bought are F2 and any fry produced
will now be F3 which I usually just call TR (tank-raised).

[MatsP]

MatsP could you explain to everyone the difference on how to tell a "false" L144 from a real one?

The only picture I'm aware of that shows REAL L144 is in Ingo Seidel's Back to Nature Guide to L-numbers. Note that Ingo's picture of L144 in the Cat-eLog is also not a "true" L144 - it's the same species as the others under this name.

To further complicate matters, there are two different variants of "false L144" - the reason I say the above ones are "common" is that they are long-fins, and to my knowledge there are NO long fin variants of any other form of Ancistrus. I'm not saying it is impossible that this could happen, but it's reasonable to believe that if there are litterally hundreds if not thousands of breeders of a long-fin variety of one species, and there are NO reports of long fin of another, that is sufficient to me. I'm also presuming that the short-finned variant is from the same source and thus the same species.

And the reasons I know this is that I spoke to Ingo and Mark Walters at the Catfish Study Group. If you are saying that Ingo Seidel doesn't know this, then I suggest there is NO ONE in the world that knows what the truth in the matter is.

And in defense of the USA, I know for a fact that these fish were imported a long time ago not
just recently. I spawn the very same species and they are nothing like the common Ancistrus,
Albinos or ABN LF. In fact I've kept common Ancistrus, Albinos, and L144 in the same tank and
have never witnessed the L144 cross-breed which makes me pretty sure they are not so closely
related to commons as you claim.

I'm pretty sure your L144 are then the short finned ones that have a smaller body one than the common, which is indeed unrelated to common ones. It has no spots on the body, and doesn't grow as large as the common variety (and even mature males are quite slender in comparison). This is the fish that is pictured in the Cat-eLog under the label L144. These do not have branches in the bristles, which common ones get when they are fairly mature.

I'm not saying they won't interbreed either, but they seem to
have a strong draw to their own species. I also think that as a moderator MatsP that you really
shouldn't make comments like you did on a sellers post. I know you tried to be tactful but in
my opinion your post may sway buyers to believe something that may not be true.

If the seller thinks I'm wrong, we can solve that pretty easily:
I suggest the seller posts pictures of the fish - I'm convinced that, besides the eyes, they look EXACTLY like albino long-fin commons - with lighter spots, and branched bristles. And the short finned ones are similar besides the size of fins.

I know there are a lot of self-proclaimed experts here as well as "real" experts but to date nobody has
shown me proof these catfish are not the real L144. I'm going to add that I see posts here
frequently, especially concerning Ancistrus species, where the posters have no idea what they
are talking about and the incorrect information that some posters spew out just adds more
confusion to an already confusing genus.

I hope you are not referring to me - if I am indeed "spewing out incorrect information", then I'd like to know it. I don't like being wrong or not knowing something. I'm not saying I know everything, but I try my best to not post things that I'm not certain of - or at least I make it clear that I'm not certain.

The Ancistrus genus is indeed not easy to deal with - there are lots of different species that look very similar. It's not any easier when they loose their colour.

I'm 99% sure that TRUE L144 are not for sale anywhere in the world right now. They have been taken over by either the "smaller spotless" false L144 or the "common" false L144. The two latter are much prettier (if you have access to Ingo's L-numbers book, then it has picture of TRUE L144, and in Ingo's words "It's an ugly fish") , and at least the common one is also very easy to breed, so it "competes" much better when it comes to.

I have one issue with the photos of Ancistrus sp.
"Rio Ucayali" in the Cat-eLog as the wild fish I have received from Peru have orange spots
not white spots with red markings on the pectorals, dorsal, and caudal fins. What's really
funny is L-welse lists the very same fish as L182 and my personal opinion is that it is rather
Ancistrus hoplogenys L059. So here we have a perfect example of two major catfish websites
that don't agree besides the fact that I don't agree with either of them, so who's really right?

http://www.l-welse.com/reviewpost/showp ... 196/cat/44

This is the species I believe is Ancistrus sp. "Rio Ucayali".


I also have what were sold to me as Ancistrus hoplogenys. I also noticed
that these Ancistrus have 7 soft rays and one hard one for a total of 8.




Now I would like to add some "correct" information about the Ancistrus sp. "Snowflake".
I have a few myself that came from Swiss Tropicals and they are beautiful bristlenose.
Steven told me the parents of his breeders were wild caught from Manaus then shipped
to Germany. His breeders are F1 and the fry we bought are F2 and any fry produced
will now be F3 which I usually just call TR (tank-raised).

This probably should be raised in a different thread in the bugs section, as it's unrelated to this thread.

--
Mats

[MatsP]

Oh, I should make clear: Anyone ELSE (whether here or elsewhere) advertising that they have L144, in the US and other places, is also NOT selling L144.

--
Mats

[Jackster]

Ok let's say that in the USA the L-number L144 for the fish we are raising has been
generally accepted by almost everyone. Even someone like Ingo may not know everything
there is to know about every catfish in the world. My reference to spewing information was
not directed at you MatsP, but was in reference to a post I made yesterday regarding an ID
of Ancistrus L180 where people were just making wild guesses. My way of posting is that
I normally don't comment on an ID unless I'm relatively sure in my somewhat educated guess.

Now if we really want to be objective in the quest to find out the history and origin of
this fish let's start with a photo. Here's a photo of one of my adult females.



Now when you mentioned spots are you speaking of the occasional dark blotches
(what was called birth marks) that occur in this species or do you mean that the
entire fish would have spots? The reason I ask is that from what I understand the
original L144 was a cave species and only one fish was ever imported. Wouldn't this
mean that likely all of what we are calling L144 are actually hybrids? So if these are
not the "true" L144 then what should we call them? I have a few of the long fin variety
also but my question would be if either the short or long finned variety have been
crossed with something else then why do the offspring breed 100% true? Please see
what other information you can dig up because I would seriously like to find out
more. Many times we don't have much information on some of the species we spawn
so the bottom line is that we sell them as what they were sold to us as. I have some
Ancistrus and Rineloricaria shipping in today that were actually hand caught in Uruguay
and shipped back to the USA in checked luggage. I know exactly where they were caught
and the seller is even going to provide me with the GPS location. This is a total exception
to any other fish that I have with the fact that I have very detailed information on the capture
location. In most cases with most species, people are just making opinionated guesses
about the identification of catfish and I think most of these people have never actually
gone into the wild and caught the fish which I certainly have never done myself.

My opinion on long fin varieties of Ancistrus may differ from others. This long fin mutation
must have occured in wild fish, after all where did the first long fin Bristlenose come from?
It's no different then the albino mutation. The difference would be that in the wild the LF fish
likely would never survive because they would be at a disadvantage and not be able to compete
well for food or spawning caves. Anyone that spawns LF Ancistrus can tell you that the short
fins always grow faster and I have found that in order to grow out LF that they should be
separated for optimal growth rates from the SF.

[thebirdofprey]

Wow - I never thought posting some fish for sale would turn into such a debate! OK let me rephrase the fish that I have for sale are "Leucistic catfish that have an albino colored body with dark colored eyes and are commonly called L-144 bristlenose by 99% of people in the hobby but technically they may not be L-144's as very few "True" L-144's exist in the hobby and they are as rare as dinosaur eggs, but the ones that I have are the ones that everyone calls L-144's anyways" Hope that clears it up a little bit. Either way they are awesome fish! Gee now that was certainly much easier!

[thebirdofprey]

here are some pictures of other fish I have for sale - also Jackster I agree with your Rio Ucayali ID. Everything I have researched says your ID is spot on. Props to you my man!

[MatsP]

Right, I think we should really split this off into a separate discussion on the "what is L144?". I will probably do this tonight, if I have time...

By spots, I meant that in albino commons, you see the spots of white as lighter areas in the yellow/orange colour.

I did not mean to say that long fins can not occur in wild fish - of course, just like albino, they do occur natturally - but very, very rarely, since the natural selection is against this.

The true L144 I believe is not a cave-dwelling fish, but one of those rare occurrences of a natural leucistic fish. To the best of my knowledge it was a male that was bred with fish caught together with it, and then further bred with their own siblings.

--
Mats

[Jake Adams]

Hi, I would like to buy some blue eyed, regular fin ancistrus. How many can I get for $50 shipped to 80401?