L260 staying near the surface of the tank

[Suckermouth]

Summary: My new L260 in a newly set-up tank are sticking near the surface of the tank.

Long story:

I set up the tank on Thursday in preparation for 6 L260 I would be receiving on Friday.

Volume: 30 gallons
Dimensions: 36" x 12" x 16"
Filter: Penguin 150
Temperature: 82 F
Also: I have a Maxi-Jet 600 Powerhead at the bottom of the tank pointed down the length of the aquarium. There is no substrate and no background.

Picture:


I received the fish on Friday and acclimated them over an hour or so. There are 6 fish, all approximately 1" long including the tail. I released the fish into the tank, and also added a few rocks (slate) I collected and rinsed off for them to hide under. Tank lights have been off for the most part except for when I took some pictures. After being in the tank, they mostly stayed on or under a rock that was closest to the powerhead. I tried feeding some earthworm sticks but they do not respond. Everything seems normal for newly bought plecs so far.

Come this morning (Saturday), I find that the fish are all collected at the top in various corners of the tank. They also hung out behind the tube of the filter or behind the wire of the heater. They would sometimes move between spots. Coloration appears to be normal. I was unable to tell how fast they were breathing. My immediate thought is that oxygenation may not be high enough, so I put an air stone in the tank attached to a Whisper air pump. This appeared to have no effect. My next thought is they're trying to "escape" due to water quality. I test the water and get these parameters:

pH: 7
NH3: 0 ppm
NO2: 0 ppm
NO3: 0 ppm
KH: <3 degrees
GH/KH: <50 ppm

All test kits are API dropper test kits. I believe nitrogenous wastes to be low since the tank is pretty new. For both KH and the GH/KH test, I only needed 3 drops to make the color change. I had e-mailed the local water company and go this response: "The latest data we have on hardness and conductivity is from the 29th of April 2009. Hardness was 40 ppm as CaCo3. Conductivity was 119uMHO/CM. We are required to test these once a year when we do our IOCs."

I wasn't sure if my eyes were fooling me with the ammonia reading, so just in case ammonia was higher than I thought I did a 50% water change, this time filling the water up only so high so that the water outlet on the filter splashed more as it entered the tank; before the water was slightly above the edge of the outlet. I also have treated Seachem Stability, a bacterial additive. The fish haven't really moved, but I think they are slightly lower into the water than they were before.

My last possible thought is that they simply don't like the bottom for some reason, but I'm not sure what I'm going to do to make them like it better. This is the first time I've placed a pump near the bottom of the tank, and the first time I've kept plecs in a bottomless tank.

Help me out, guys, please!

[Hitch]

when you turn on the light or use a flashlight, do they quickly swim away or pretty much stay there? Bad news if they just stay there.

I first two thoughts were high ammonia/nitrite or not proper oxygenation. Try testing the water again when its sunny out to you will be able to see clearly, and keep the air stone in there.

Have you checked their gills? I find that a good indication of ammonia/nitrite stress or not enough O2 is redder then usually gills.

[Suckermouth]

When I shine a light on them, they will move to a different spot.

I did test under bright lights so I don't think that's a problem. I will re-test tomorrow though. I also figured a water change couldn't hurt.

I didn't see any redness in the gills, but they are also quite small and the gills are hard to see.

[Hitch]

hmmmm.......I am stumped.

if the water after a retest is still good. My only suggestion is to put in a piece of malaysian driftwood with lots of nooks and crevices, if that still doesnt help, we can at least for sure rule out lack of hiding spots.....long shot...I know..

[Suckermouth]

Yeah, I was stumped as well, hence the post! I will have to give them a proper hiding spot and see if they like that.

[davidkozak]

Personally I wouldn't use the powerhead near the bottom of the tank unless I was trying to trigger adults to spawn..Perhaps that might be freaking them out? Something else to ponder maybe.. David

[hotplecogirl]

i would add many more places to hide and a not so bright light.

[Suckermouth]

As I've mentioned, the light has not been on except for when I take pictures. But yeah, I will try more hiding places and see what happens.

[andywoolloo]

you can add a background, could be as simple as covering the back with a black hefty bag cut to fit, and maybe even do the sides if they are that skittish. You can put some floating plants , even fake ones to block some tank light. Or put dark tape over part of the hood plastic.

I would put alot more stuff in there and a substrate, sand...altho I realize it's probably justa QT tank for them and you want to be able to see when and how they poo etc but I am just thinking of them feeling safe.

Caves plants wood backgrounds... I like to make them all homey even if it is QT tank. And the powerhead I agree I would move it up

Just my ideas. Good luck.

[sampster5000]

Adding hiding places will make a big difference. They might not come out in the day anymore but I would rather that then watch them die of stress. I have driftwood and rock caves in my tank and all of my plecos make good use of them as hiding spots.

[MatsP]

Have you added any "instant cycle" product? If not, then you are essentially cycling the tank with $300 worth of pretty rare fish!

Even with such products, it's not unusual for a spike of ammonia/nitrite.

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

Do give them a lot more hiding places.
Also offer them live black worms or white worms or Grindal worms if you culture them. Grindal worms are especially good for young L260's. I feed my young F1 L260's earthworm sticks and frozen blood worms since forever. They used to get more black worms but I was going through 3 lbs a month for years and finally couldn't afford to keep that up. I am raising my youngsters which are now 1-3/4 inches in a tank set up to breed a pair of wild Alenquer Discus. The L260 eat some of the beef heart blend I feed the discus. I make my own. I have never found a commercially available beef heart blend that met my approval. I am not worried about the L260's eating any Discus eggs.
They will hide behind heaters if the heater is near the surface. Mine hide underneath the sponge filters since the discus spawning tank is a typically spartan discus spawning tank although I do have a good sized piece of Malaysian wood in there as well and some hide in and under it.
I would use media from another filter to make sure the tank doesn't cycle. The products meant to kick start the process save days off weeks; they are not an instant solution. Better yet, used a filter from an established tank.
BTW, locating the power head on the bottom is fine. It really doesn't matter where the power head is located.
The MaxJets happen to perfectly fit the Azoo Oxygen-Plus Bio-Filter sponge filters sold by drsfostersmith. I use the #6 model extensively. It is equivalent to a Hydrosponge IV.I use two in ever tank. One is set up to use the air lift and the other is fitted with a MaxJet 600 power head. I also supply additional aeration with an air stone. L260 this small are pretty delicate but almost everything you described stuck me to be related to a lack of sufficient cover for them to hide.
They can handle temperatures as high as 90*F for short periods. I keep my breeders and fry at 84 to 86*F.

[Suckermouth]

At night, 4 of the fish descended to the rocks. I got some cardboard and blocked the front of the tank. This morning and throughout the day, the 4 that descended last night remained at the bottom amongst the rocks. I got a piece of Malaysian Driftwood; it didn't have as many crevices and holes as I'd like, but it's better than nothing; Petco doesn't exactly have the best wood selection. I will try to scrounge up more rocks to put into the tank as well.

Unfortunately I do not culture worms, but I got some frozen bloodworms that I will try feeding tonight.

The preferred place on the rocks appears to be where they can hide with rock above and below them. I'm a little surprised it has this big of an effect, but then again not that surprised. At the very least, I will see if I can at least put some black underneath the tank. Aquarium gravel is darned expensive, and I really don't like the gravel size on cheaper landscaping gravel. I also don't want sand since I don't want to tear up the powerhead that's so close to the bottom. I'm not familiar with the Tapajos so I don't know what the natural substrate is, not that it matters as much as these are F1 fish, but they are probably used to gravel.

I will watch out for an ammonia spike; I think right now I'm being saved by not feeding very much coupled with very small fish in what is a fair amount of water. I have been told Seachem Stability is reliable and a good product, so I will let you guys know. Don't worry Mats, I'm not so foolish as to flush money down the drain like that!

I was thinking to put a trash bag on the tank, but mine are white! I'll have to get some black bags.

Thanks guys for all your comments.

[drpleco]

Summary: My new L260 in a newly set-up tank are sticking near the surface of the tank.

I set up the tank on Thursday in preparation for 6 L260 I would be receiving on Friday.

the first time I've kept plecs in a bottomless tank.

A lot of "new" and all in all, a recipe for disaster....but I'm hoping things go well in the long run.

I'd get a seasoned filter on that tank ASAP and I'm personally more comfortable feeding my 260 babies brine shrimp and .5mm pellets than blood worms. I'm not arguing with Larry, since he raises 260's, too, but I've heard of baby hypans choking on bloodworms so I don't risk it. To each his own, though, I suppose. I also use shrimp and/or snails to keep food from spoiling the water and keep biofilm from building up on the bottom. They're slow enough to not outcompete the fry for food, which is important for 260's.

Broken pieces of clay pottery work great for fry cover. You can layer them such that the babies can have their bellies and backs touching the clay and this will make them feel maximally secure. The added bonus is that they're light enough to not crush fry if they shift.

Good luck!

[Suckermouth]

Broken clay pottery? I don't exactly have that lying around...

I know it's not ideal, but I'll be watching the water parameters like a hawk. I don't intend to lose a single one of these.

[Hitch]

you can get them from any store that has a garden section....walmart etc. Lots of dollar stores also have them.

[Suckermouth]

Thanks for the tip, I had no idea!

[MatsP]

Some garden centres etc, even have a pile/bucket of "broken pieces", which is usually "free". You should use unglazed, natural colour (usually orange-ish) pieces.

Or if you find some broken ones, you can ask if you can have them for free (or 80-90% "discount"). Just make sure it's clear that you didn't break them! ;)

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

I have made my own broken pottery by smashing up a couple pots. Useful in any small pleco species tank but especially in a bare bottom one.
My young L260 are in a bare bottom wild Discus pair's tank. I am trying to breed a few pairs of Alenquers and one pair is in a bare bottom tank. The other 2 pairs are in tanks with a very thin layer of FloraBase plant growing substrate; just enough to barely conceal the glass but all my tanks are on black painted wood shelves so their perception is that there is a bottom beneath them.

[Suckermouth]

Looks like I'll really have to go get myself some broken pottery then.

Though I haven't seen any of them eat, I have seen some fish poo so it appears they have started eating.

[DutchFry]

I have no idea what is wrong with your L260 specimens, but I want to say about the broken pottery, there can be very sharp edges on that, which might hurt your fishes.

I have used broken pottery in the past, mainly for breeding Apistogramma agassizii and borellii, but I always made sure the sharp edges are 'smoothened' before use.

[apistomaster]

I rarely witness my young L260 feed but their full bellies provide all the evidence I need.
They are an extremely shy species.

[Farid]

hi there,
i'd say you dont need the strong current at the bottom but a airstone...just to make sure there's enough oxygene in this tank...also the light is too bright. as a quarantain tank i would not add any light to prevent stress. as if the fish would be carriers of any desease, would even affect the fish more then if the fish has a relaxed time...(dont forget, glassbottom reflects the toplight...even brighter ! even worse)

farid

[apistomaster]

Bare bottoms should reflect much light if the tank is set on a dark colored surface.
The fishes view is much different than an outside observer who will see reflections which the fish do not.

That said, I agree the lighting should be minimal because it is less stressful if the plecos are kept in dim to dark conditions during a quarantine/treatment period.

[Suckermouth]

Thought I'd give you guys an update.

I've finally gotten my hands on an old filter pad so that should definitely help seed my tank. I have been vigilant watching the ammonia and nitrites and have not yet seen it go over 0 for either. I haven't tested nitrates because I'm lazy, and ammonia and nitrites are more important anyway. I've done numerous water changes over the past two weeks to assuage my paranoia. I think I've already used over half that bottle of Seachem Stability too, although one night I spilled more into the tank than I needed to add!

They appear to be settling in quite well 'cuz I can only see their tails sticking out from their holes in a piece of wood I purchased, if I see them at all! Just to keep track of investments I have pulled them out just to see that they aren't keeling over randomly, but they appear to be doing fine!

I'll be keeping a hawk's eye on them for the next couple weeks, but I think it's going to be smooth sailing soon.