Is it a MUST to have CO2 for a tank with plants?

[Blackhawker]

I have about 3-4 live plants, but I've noticed they arent growing much....do I need CO2 to keep them healthy and growing? I've got 0 knowledge of how to go about setting up a CO2 tank.

[Suckermouth]

I'm not a planted tank expert, but this depends a lot on what plants you have and what lighting is on your tank, so we need a little more information. But to answer the question, no, you do not need CO2 to have a planted tank.

[2wheelsx2]

Absolutely not. You can have a very very nice planted tank without injecting CO2. You have a number of options. You can go with demineralized soil base and laterite under gravel to grow a nice low light setup, or you can use Excel or Metricide to provide carbon in low to medium light setups (depending on tank size) to have a nice setup, or you can choose to go high light, dose ferts, use specialized substrate, inject CO2 and have a thing of wonder that grows an inch a day. At one point, I had 4 tanks, one of each kind.

Giving us some ideas on your budget, tank size, and what you are trying to achieve will allow us to narrow down your choices a bit. But if you are going to keep any plecos or other high O2 demand fishes in there, you might want to think twice about CO2 injection, depending how far you want to take it and how complex you want to make things.

[Timberwolf]

I have had great luck with a planted tank without any sort of CO2 system (someday, though...) and my plants are thriving and my fish are loving them. One caution, though: Plants create oxygen during the day, as we all know and expect, but I was surprised to learn that they are net consumers of oxygen at night. I would strongly recommend a good air system to go with your live plants. A stream of bubbles may not be the most natural looking thing in a thoughtfully laid-out riparium, or aquarium, but they are a whole lot nicer than oxygen-starved fish!

Enjoy your plants! They really do add a whole new level of enjoyment to my aquaria and my fist are healthier for their being there.

[2wheelsx2]

Yes, plants only consume oxygen at night. And no need to watch bubbles in your tank. Just put the pump on a timer so that it comes on just before lights out to purge excess CO2 and promote better exchange, and turn off before lights on to let CO2 build up a bit. I plan to use a powerhead with a venturi to do this with a timer.

[Blackhawker]

I would like some healthy swordplants and anubias. Ive got both now with some anachris. The tank size is a 75 gal, and i have a medium budget. I'd like a beautiful showtank with my plecos and SA cichlids.

[Richard B]

I would like some healthy swordplants and anubias. Ive got both now with some anachris. The tank size is a 75 gal, and i have a medium budget. I'd like a beautiful showtank with my plecos and SA c*****ds.

depending upon the types of cichlids & plecos , a "beautiful showtank" might not be the easiest thing to accomplish, with the digging, plant eating possibilities - what species will be included?

Anubias is best grown on wood branches off the substrate to avoid disruption. It is relatively slow but quite tough & undemanding.

[MatsP]

Now, in my book, there are two sorts of "planted tanks" - one is where you keep the plants, and fish is sort of an attractive add-on, and then there are tanks with fish, where plants are an attractive add-on. I've spoken to some "planted tank" specialists, and they essentially agree - you either keep plants with fish, or fish with plants.

If the goal is to have a planted tank with fish, then you choose your plant types, lighting, equipment/chemicals/etc (e.g. CO2, fertilizers, substrate), and then you add fish that suits the tank - if the fish don't go well in the tank, replace the fish with others that are more likely to go well in the tank.

If you have a fish tank with plants, then it's the other way around: You pick your fish you want, and have the equipment (e.g. lighting) set up to match the fish, and look for plants that you think will match the lights and conditions.

My tanks have plants, but the fish come first, so here's what I do:
- Find some plants that I think suits the tank.
- Plant them in the tank.
- If they grow, good, don't change anything.
- If they don't grow, replace with some other plants.
- I haven't bought plants for a long time now, I just spread what grows in one tank to the other tanks.

I've got several amazon swords, anubias, Java Fern, Vallisneria and several kinds of floating plants (mostly water lettuce that I "rescued" from the outdoor pond before winter set in).

--
Mats

[2wheelsx2]

I'm with Mats there. I have one planted tank for plants (my 20 gallon), and two planted tanks for fish (125 gallon and 15 gallon).

I would say stick with Anubias and java fern mainly, which are ephiphytes and should be fastened to wood and rocks, and have a few swordplants as the centerpiece/focal point just off center and keep the lighting moderate, and manage your algae/plant growth with Excel and do no/light dosing. That's why I didn't include Vals. You cannot dose Excel/Metricide with vals or they'll just melt away.

On a 75 gallon, 2x54w HO t5 would be perfect for the plants I listed above. Plain gravel/sand substrate with root tabs for the swords and you're good to go. The plecos and cichlids will supply the plants with nutrients.

[Blackhawker]

Very informative, thank you. Will small trace amount of salts affect the plants? I'm looking for fish first, plants second. I've got two T5 bulbs on the tank already. I'm afraid you lost me with the "excel" and "no light dosing" parts haha.

My cichlid setup is: 1 Macaw cichlid, 1 rainbow cichlid, 1 Escondido texas cichlid, 1 firemouth, 1 blue ram, and 7 black tetras as dither.

[MatsP]

Why would there be salt in your water? Shouldn't have any salt in there... [Assuming you are not curing some illness, just like I don't take headache pills unless I actually have a headache].

Are you actually saying you will mix those central american cichlids (Texas, Rainbow, Macaw and Firemouth) with a very small and gentle Microgeophagus ramirezi (Blue Ram)? I don't think that will work very very long, not to mention they have quite different natural water conditions. The Ram is a softwater species which prefers soft acidic water, the Central American live in hard alkaline water.

--
Mats

[2wheelsx2]

I'm not going to comment on your stocking, as there are many others who will/can comment on that, but on the points you made:

1. A little salt will not harm the plants.
2. Dosing meaning trace minerals, nitrates, phosphates, potassium, magnesium, calcium for the plants
3. Excel is Seachem Flourish Excel, which is a liquid source of carbon.

[Blackhawker]

I currently have that setup of fish in one tank at the moment. I've established hiding places for them, and right now everyone is peaceful. I chose that mix of fish due to the similar sizes and tempermants of the fish. The Escondido cichlid is by my research a more peaceful breed of the Texas cichlid. In fact the Macaw has been pretty territorial out of the bunch.

I kept a small amount of salt in there because I read that it was a healthy thing to have present in the tank, unless that information was completely wrong.

I currently just started to use a product called "Seachem Flourish" but its a comprehensive supplement, not a carbon supplement.

[2wheelsx2]

Yes, Flourish is a trace. Flourish Excel is a liquid source of carbon. They should be available in the same place you get the Flourish.

[MatsP]

I currently have that setup of fish in one tank at the moment. I've established hiding places for them, and right now everyone is peaceful. I chose that mix of fish due to the similar sizes and tempermants of the fish. The Escondido cichlid is by my research a more peaceful breed of the Texas cichlid. In fact the Macaw has been pretty territorial out of the bunch.

A texas cichlid gets to 8-10" if I'm not completely wrong. Rams max out around 2-3". Not a good mix. And even the most gentle cichlid like Geophagus would be unsuitable with a Ram, in my opinion.

I kept a small amount of salt in there because I read that it was a healthy thing to have present in the tank, unless that information was completely wrong.

That is sort of a debatable point, but for normal healthy fish (excluding Mollies in soft water conditions, but I hope you don't have THEM too in your tank), salt should not be added to the water. Sure, for fish with health problems, salt can be a life-saver. But I presume yours are healthy?

--
Mats

[Blackhawker]

Naw no mollys in my tank http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/cichlid/texas.php I have the "green" texas cichlid and it seldom grows bigger then 8 inches. I'm banking on the fact that mine till top out at 6 inches, it's currently at 2 inches.

Perhaps I'll be wrong, but if I am I'll for sure do the right thing and move the ram to a smaller tank

[exasperatus2002]

NO. I've had a nice planted 55 gallon tank with out using co2. I did keep some fish (3 discus, cardinal tetras & wood cats) in it so it wasnt a true dutch tank.

[MatsP]

Well, even at about 4 inches, it will be twice the length of the Ram. That, in essence means that it's 8 times the body mass (because it's also twice as wide and twice as tall, so it 2 * 2 * 2 = 8 times more volume -> 8 times more body weight - actually probably a bit more, since the Texas cichlid is quite a "chunky" fish). 6 inches would be approximately 1.5x longer than 4", and that means another 3x the body mass, or about 25 times the body mass of the Ram.

Body mass is an important factor when "battling" between cichlids.

--
Mats

[Bas Pels]

texas and ram are all but compatible

temperature
At temps above 25 C a Herichthys carpinte, or H cyanoguttatum will get very agressive, and at a temp where their agression is more moderate - say 21 C, the Microgeophagus ramiresi will die

water
Herichthys hard, high pH, M ramiresi soft, low pH

agression
Herichthys is an agressive species, ramiresi will die from stress alone

Personally, i think you better finish the ramiresi quick, using a knife, then keep it in that tank

on a sidenote, Herichthys are known for eating plants, but I care for fish well being, not plants

[Blackhawker]

I understand. I haven't seen any aggression at all in my tank. If it starts then I will quickly remove the ram. There are no signs of stress either.

[whiteymoza]

Plants require more than just carbon to grow, you dont have to use CO2 to get good plant growth but in combination with plenty of light a good fertile substrate, root fertilisers and plenty of macro and micro nutrients it sure as hell helps! There isnt a great deal of point dosing CO2 into a tank for only a few plants especially if you dont fulfil their other requirements too, it will help a bit but you wont be getting your 100% from them. Planted aquariums is almost a completely different hobby my sugestion is to look into fertilisation techniques plus your lighting and photo period before you start worrying about CO2.

[Bas Pels]

If you have a few plants, enough fishes, the fertiliser and carbon all come from the fishes - in just the right amount

I'm Dutch, and I know there are people who like the extremely heavily planted tank. Those tanks may need a lot of strange actions - I would say, if you do so, take the fishes out and have fun, or keep the fishes in and stop

But fishes don't like the enormous light levels these tanks require. It's much better to have a few plants - and then you don't have to do a thing for them