why is there no expected age/lifetime in Cat-eLog?

[Viktor Jarikov]

Is there a good reason for that? say, length varies greatly too but the max is still indicated, right? it'd be even more helpful to know at what point in time the fishes turn from babies, to adolescents, and then to adults/mating-capable adults... and then to mating-incapable adults, and then to senior citizens, and then to frail senior citizens, and then to the hospice-needing frail, decease-ridden senior citizens, and then to the final and ultimate "nature call"...

[MatsP]

Usually, if there is a breeding record, it states the size/age of the fish.

As for the "expected life of the fish", it would be quite difficult to determine that. We may well know that someone has kept the same specimen of a Corydoras species for 18 years, say. But a lot of people may have difficulty keeping the same fish alive for 6 years - what number should we put in the Cat-eLog, then? For MANY fish, there is probably no data at all - someone may well have a fish that they have kept for 2, 3, 5 or 10 years - but it's still alive and not showing any sign of passing away. And then a filter stops working and the fish dies from an accident...

I'm certainly not aware of any database that holds this sort of information...

--
Mats

[Viktor Jarikov]

Good points but not enough. I still think that e.g., if it known for sure that at an adequate level of care a fish CAN live up to 18 years, this info would be valuable.

After all, when we go to the zoos or read handbooks about animals, there is usually good info about the longevity BOTH in the wild AND in captivity. Why is fish so much harder? I do not get it.

I do not see anything wrong with giving a wide range either; people die from many causes, but we still have SOME general idea of the AVERAGES expected for different sexes, in different countries, in different professions, etc.

Finally, having such info or a hint of an info could, might promote some sense of responsibility among aquariumists/pondists. Knowing that I am buying a fish that lives for up to 90 years, like koi, makes me think owning it through on a completely different scale than buying a Cory that may live for 5 years. Again, buying big cats which, I know, CAN live for 10-20-50 years, would help me plan accordingly and make less of impulse purchases, like those in the checkout line at a supermarket, you know

Viktor

[Bas Pels]

Generally speaking, catfish get old

a few families are exceptions, but my Platydoras are bought over 20 years ago, together with my oldest Pterogoblichthys gibbiceps

personally, I think 10 years for a Corydoras is long as well

[MatsP]

My point is that for this information to be really meaningful, it needs to be at least somewhat accurate.

Zoos do indeed have this information for most of the animals they keep. Most animals in zoos are fairly well-known, and the vast majority are mammals - I don't know exactly how many species of mammals there are, but it's far fewer than the species of fish, and they are more well researched (after all, they are more cuddly ;) ).

As Bas says, Catfish live for a relatively long time, commonly 20 years and more. Large catfish can live for 50+ years (such as South American Red Tail Cats).

But that is generalizations. To make such a feature useful, it's going to mean putting accurate enough data into each of the 2400+ species we have in the Cat-eLog.

And if anyone can point me to some form of collected data that indicates the expected lifespan of fish in the wild & captivity - whenthis subject came up in "Bugs & Suggestions" recently, where a link was made to a German site - but it's a very long way from complete, and apparently not maintained.

Over a longer term, we can probably get some reasonable data from our "My Cats" database - but of course, only if there is information as to why the owner stopped keeping the fish - if the fish is sold at an older age, the new owner's "keeping record" won't necessarily reflect the original age of the fish. And of course, how old are my

Leporacanthicus triactis

that I recently bought - I can GUESS their age, but I can't know if they are 2, 3 or 4 years old.

--
Mats

[Viktor Jarikov]

All right. Thank you, Mats and Bas. My last knee jerk (I think). Longevity is one of the most basic and important features of any creature and usually (unless impossible or too expensive) a dedicated effort is made to get at that info along with other basics, such as size, sex differences, food, habits, mating conditions, etc. This is what zoologists, ornitologists, "bug-o-logists", and other biologists do as a part of their research. I am reasonably sure, ichthiologists must be doing this work too. But the fact remains: if such experienced enthusiasts like yourselves are not aware of a more or less comprehensive source of longevity info for fish, or catfish in this instance, then something must be behind this apparent controversy. There must be a reason. Or maybe it is all just in my head
Viktor

[Janne]

Does it need to be exactly? I understand it's impossible to know every species maximum age, if a fish dies due to the owner is no relevant etc. It's a good info and would probably like Viktor states make some fishkeepers more awar and think one step further buying certain species of fish.

Corydoras +10 year is enough information, Pterygoplichthys +20 years, Pseudyplatystoma +40 years etc. a general info per genus?

Like Mats wrote, can't compare with a zoo with animals that have been studied since hundreds of years, people don't see a fish as an animal (in general) and have not the same interest to know the same things like they want to know about a mammal.

Janne

[Back]

An average life span for a certain species in all the various tanks where we can monitor everything would also require some sort of average measurement of water parameters and such.
Lets say that a certain number of individual fishes (of the same species) die of causes we can't determine/diagnose. Those would be considered to die of natural causes = "old age".
I still believe they would die at a great variation of age.

What kind of food did they eat?
We have to assume that variety of nutrition and similar things would affect their overall condition.
How much food did they get?
It's known that a lot of organisms tends to live longer by eating less and/or having periods of near starvation.
Metabolism and amount of waste products within the organism gets lower thus slowing up certain processes.
In the same time a well fed fish can generally withstand outbursts of diseases or parasites better.
Average water temperatures?
Higher temperatures equals higher metabolic rate. What's the average age of one species in 25° and what is it in 28°?
All other issues in the average water parameters affecting the fish?
Average PH, Nitrate, Oxygen levels and so on - during the entire life of the fish.

I had a pair of Retroculus Xinguensis. Wonderful fish. Both died with huge questionmarks remaining in my head.
From seemingly very fit and healthy to stone dead in a matter of minutes. The first one died at an age of about 5-6 years. The other one passed away this winter. It was about 8-9 years give or take. Both did in in exactly the same way. One minute swimming normally around and suddenly tipping over and died. Their heads became pale almost immediatelly giving some hint that they actually died very quickly. Heart attack? - I don't know if fish actually can have that. Everything with the water was of course quickly checked out and that seemed OK.

I have four Sorubims - one older and three young ones. The old one isn't really that old. About 11-13 years perhaps. It's not bigger than 23-24 cm. During the last week it has started to get weak. Constant water checking (and normal changes) doesn't give me any clues since all seems to be fine. My three juvenile sorubims are all in perfect shape. The other fishes in the same tank are fine as well.
But this Sorubim now has a broken barbel that won't grow back. The caudal fin is more or less slowly shrinking but without any signs of infections or anything. I've noticed a strange little bend in the mandible and it's breathing heavily. According to what I can see the gills seems to be their normal colour. It doesn't eat much.
I have no idea of what it is all about and I'm starting to get the feeling that it's a very old fish (despite not being that old).
I'd expect them to go beyond 20 years.

But who knows. I'll keep on tying to find out and fight whatever it's going through.

[Back]

Corydoras +10 year is enough information, Pterygoplichthys +20 years, Pseudyplatystoma +40 years etc. a general info per genus?

Yes it would be something like: they can live +20 years or something

[MatsP]

Well, it needs to be accurate ENOUGH - but yes, having a scale of perhaps 1, 3, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50 year ranges.

But even with per genera, we have 406 genera in the cat-elog, it's still a fair amount of work - and whilst some of the more commonly kept genera, we have information. But for the less common genera, it's much harder.

And whilst we perhaps don't need to be PERFECT, it needs to be close enough that it doesn't say 5 years when in reality it is 1, or 20...

And the "per genus" idea isn't that great for certain larger genus.... I'd be surprised if for example Synodontis nigriventris and Synodontis granulosa fits in the same age-bracket - unless we make the bracket VERY large and then it becomes useless.

--
Mats

[Back]

Well I could see some kind of use in adding an expected average life span in the Cat-elog.
However I'd agree with Mats that the amount of work together with a fairly vague estimation wouldn't give much back in the end.

Another thing would be if owners (and logged in members) of species could post comments such as own experiences (like age and other interesting stuff) within the cat-elog species pages. That would of course open up for more information about each species but it would also be important to know that such comments aren't necessarily true facts - just personal experienses.
And monitoring that those comments are serious and providers of good and interesting information would also be a huge - I suppose even worse than adding an expected life span - task for moderators.

Maybe the forum is the place to ask how long we'd expect our newly purhased catfish to live.

[MatsP]

Another thing would be if owners (and logged in members) of species could post comments such as own experiences (like age and other interesting stuff) within the cat-elog species pages. That would of course open up for more information about each species but it would also be important to know that such comments aren't necessarily true facts - just personal experienses.
And monitoring that those comments are serious and providers of good and interesting information would also be a huge - I suppose even worse than adding an expected life span - task for moderators.

The "My Cats" section allows the user to add a comment to the Cat-eLog entry. But it's not specific to any particular aspect of the fish.

Maybe the forum is the place to ask how long we'd expect our newly purhased catfish to live.

It is indeed one of the questions we get from time to time.

--
Mats

[Back]

The "My Cats" section allows the user to add a comment to the Cat-eLog entry. But it's not specific to any particular aspect of the fish.

Ah yes of course - silly me.

[Viktor Jarikov]

you are right, guys: a 1-2 h search on google and 5-10 sites (including wikipedia) for TSN and red-tail gave me NO info, zero, nix, zip, on possible life span! Wow! What ARE those ichthiologists DOING? Say, TSN is an important food fish - would not people want to know how many years/spawnings one can get out of fish even if the spawnings are artificially induced? Anyway, it is not a common piece of info. But I do think that if we all take on this task seriously, little by little, we may put something together of value not only to us, but from it appears, to a far, far larger global community?
Viktor

[MatsP]

Yes, but having spent a lot of time updating the Cat-eLog with relatively simple data items such as the rivers/lakes/oceans in which the fish come from - this is CLEARLY not hard to know, and max size information. Both of these are not that easy to find if the species is not fairly common [and if it's common I find three different pieces of information that doesn't completely agree!]

Adding information that isn't easy to come by will be much harder, and it's a question of "what is the most value to the average user". Yes, I agree that age information would be useful. But there are lots of species that do not have "compatibility/suitable tankmates" information, which I think is a generally more helpful information.

--
Mats

[Janne]

An average life span for a certain species in all the various tanks where we can monitor everything would also require some sort of average measurement of water parameters and such.
Lets say that a certain number of individual fishes (of the same species) die of causes we can't determine/diagnose. Those would be considered to die of natural causes = "old age".
I still believe they would die at a great variation of age.
What kind of food did they eat?
We have to assume that variety of nutrition and similar things would affect their overall condition.
How much food did they get?
It's known that a lot of organisms tends to live longer by eating less and/or having periods of near starvation.
Metabolism and amount of waste products within the organism gets lower thus slowing up certain processes.
In the same time a well fed fish can generally withstand outbursts of diseases or parasites better.
Average water temperatures?
Higher temperatures equals higher metabolic rate. What's the average age of one species in 25° and what is it in 28°?
All other issues in the average water parameters affecting the fish?
Average PH, Nitrate, Oxygen levels and so on - during the entire life of the fish.

Ridiculous arguments, has nothing to do with expected litetime for a species of any animal... if so none would be older than a few months or a year in general. I can see a problem for most fishkeepers (not engaged hobbyists trying to make everything as science), most people buying or owning an aquarium has not the same level of knowledge like many have hanging in his forum. If they at least knew that if I buy a Corydoras it should not die after 6 months or 1 year, or if I buy a RTC that I maybe have to take care of this fellow 40-50 years etc.

Life is never perfect and no science either, many size of fishes is in general or estimated of the largest caught specimen for the description work even that we know it grows bigger or smaller (mistakes is made sometimes), nothing is perfect but a guideline for "beginners" is not a wrong thought. Maybe it's better to write an article of expected litetime than to put it in the Cat-eLog, just so many people understand it's not normal to buy new fishes each 6 months period or every year to replace the one that have died or that this one will live forever and grow big so they understand they need to buy a bigger aquarium later.

Janne

[Back]

Ridiculous arguments, has nothing to do with expected litetime for a species of any animal... if so none would be older than a few months or a year in general. I can see a problem for most fishkeepers (not engaged hobbyists trying to make everything as science), most people buying or owning an aquarium has not the same level of knowledge like many have hanging in his forum. If they at least knew that if I buy a Corydoras it should not die after 6 months or 1 year, or if I buy a RTC that I maybe have to take care of this fellow 40-50 years etc.

Life is never perfect and no science either, many size of fishes is in general or estimated of the largest caught specimen for the description work even that we know it grows bigger or smaller (mistakes is made sometimes), nothing is perfect but a guideline for "beginners" is not a wrong thought. Maybe it's better to write an article of expected litetime than to put it in the Cat-eLog, just so many people understand it's not normal to buy new fishes each 6 months period or every year to replace the one that have died or that this one will live forever and grow big so they understand they need to buy a bigger aquarium later.
Janne

Of course you're right with the Corydoras and RTC examples and of course there is a certain number of years we should expect our fish to live.
I was merely trying to raise the question of how and whom to say what an expected life span might be.
What's normal and what's not normal and what should the expected lifetime be based upon?
- An average among fishkeepers?
- An average among certain fishkeepers who are supposed to know something about their fish?
- Or yet another alternative?
If it's outruled as ridiculous it's OK for me.
I'm not trying to turn this question into a certain direction. I'm just as interested in the answers as the first post in this thread.

Then it's up to the moderators how to deal with the information published on this site.

[Janne]

I think the "mind fault" in this discussion is that some think that most fishkeepers have similar knowledge like the majority in different fish forums like PC... but these hobbyists is maybe only 10% of all fishkeepers, 90% has no clue at all but they read the forums and special they read in register for fish species like the Cat-eLog.

It's not needed to make it so complicated, I'm quite sure there are "experts" on this forum for each family of catfishes that can estimate quite close the lifespan, for that is enough if there are an estimated lifetime for each group/genus or what so ever... a general lifetime and of course there can be a few exceptions within each group but they are very few. The information is not interesting me as person, the information is interesting and important to provide for all people that not know or what to expect how long time their fishes should live under the right circumstances. In the future when all know the exactly lifetime it can be made more exactly but none of us today will be alive to witness that list ;)

Janne

[MatsP]

Janne,

That is a very good point: this is more useful for the beginner.

I'm moving this thread to the "Suggestions and Bugs". It would require Jools adding a field to the database and displaying it in the Cat-eLog - with a per genus and per species (where the per species takes precedence if present).

--
Mats

[Suckermouth]

All right. Thank you, Mats and Bas. My last knee jerk (I think). Longevity is one of the most basic and important features of any creature and usually (unless impossible or too expensive) a dedicated effort is made to get at that info along with other basics, such as size, sex differences, food, habits, mating conditions, etc. This is what zoologists, ornitologists, "bug-o-logists", and other biologists do as a part of their research. I am reasonably sure, ichthiologists must be doing this work too. But the fact remains: if such experienced enthusiasts like yourselves are not aware of a more or less comprehensive source of longevity info for fish, or catfish in this instance, then something must be behind this apparent controversy. There must be a reason. Or maybe it is all just in my head
Viktor

you are right, guys: a 1-2 h search on google and 5-10 sites (including wikipedia) for TSN and red-tail gave me NO info, zero, nix, zip, on possible life span! Wow! What ARE those ichthiologists DOING? Say, TSN is an important food fish - would not people want to know how many years/spawnings one can get out of fish even if the spawnings are artificially induced? Anyway, it is not a common piece of info. But I do think that if we all take on this task seriously, little by little, we may put something together of value not only to us, but from it appears, to a far, far larger global community?
Viktor

Your profile says you are a scientist, but not what kind. However, I don't think this is how science in the field of ichthyology works at all. Ichthyologists are not just wasting time.

Just about all of the people who study "catfish" are doing one of a few things:
1. Describing new species of catfish. <-- before you can ask how old something gets, you need to know what it is!
2. Working with a food species, which is only a very small subset of catfish species (ie. Ictalurus punctatus).
3. Some people are doing something else, but from what I can tell there are not many of them and they are not probably not studying longevity either.

I believe longevity is entirely irrelevant to the goals of most ichthyologists today. If they find it, it is as a by-product of research, not as a goal. For example, some scientist might do a population study that groups individuals in a population by age, and thus find out the longevity because of that (I don't know of such a study among catfishes, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist). I don't think the "naturalist" type of questions that aquarists are interested in are the types of questions that are commonly asked in research.

The only paper I know has a life span of a catfish was studying

Entomocorus gameroi

. They found this species to be annual. However, this fish lives at least a few years in captivity.

[Jools]

One question I'd ask is why do you need to know this. What difference does it make?

Some observations. Doing it per genus would take approx. 50 hours man time and be based on mainly my guess work. It could then get refined but it doesn't make sense to me I mean how do you know when a fish dies of old age versus some other ailment? What does dying of old age mean? Yikes!

If a fish is very delicate then it's going to, statistically speaking, have a pretty low life expectancy in captivity.

If I took this approach then you could have them categorised (e.g. less than 5 years (

Entomocorus

for example), 5-10 years (

Corydoras

), 10+ years (Most plecos), 40+ years (big pims)). Again, what difference does this it make to the keeper? We'd always have a "The cat-elog has this fish as living 10 years, WELL THEN ALL YOU EXPERTS, I had one that lived for 30 years and so you are WRONG and DUMB and LAZY and I am a very clever person" argument.

One answer to this is that the my cats data is the solution. It can provide average data but, to make it useful, I need to get the email alerts side of it working (e.g. an email every 6 months to confirm the fish is still alive etc).

Jools

[Viktor Jarikov]

Hi Jools, my naive answers of a beginner are below:

J: One question I'd ask is why do you need to know this. What difference does it make?
V: if the foregoing did not make sense to you, then I am not sure what else to add that'd be of value.

J: Some observations. Doing it per genus would take approx. 50 hours man time and be based on mainly my guess work. It could then get refined but it doesn't make sense to me I mean how do you know when a fish dies of old age versus some other ailment? What does dying of old age mean? Yikes!
V: as Janne said, it could be merely a guideline - life span under the right circumstances, what to expect; and then this info can and should be used in sorting through the possible causes of death and the decisions about the followup work.

J: If a fish is very delicate then it's going to, statistically speaking, have a pretty low life expectancy in captivity.
V: as Janne put well, we probably need to focus on the medium but "rightest" circumstances, not all-sweeping statistics? If one took infant mortality, wars, violence, catastrophies, famine, epidemics, etc. into account, the human life span, I believe, would be much, much shorter than what we think of it now. On the other hand, the longest-lived individuals could be mentioned BUT as exceptions - we all are aware of actual people living into their 90-100+, but chances are, our final "nature call" will ring in at around 60-ish, 70-ish, 80-ish, right?

J: If I took this approach then you could have them categorised (e.g. less than 5 years (Entomocorus for example), 5-10 years (Corydoras), 10+ years (Most plecos), 40+ years (big pims)). Again, what difference does this it make to the keeper?
V: see above.

J: We'd always have a "The cat-elog has this fish as living 10 years, WELL THEN ALL YOU EXPERTS, I had one that lived for 30 years and so you are WRONG and DUMB and LAZY and I am a very clever person" argument.
V: IMHO, you will always have this with any info you dare to put forward as a guideline, as an education, including all that already is in Cat-eLog...

J: One answer to this is that the my cats data is the solution. It can provide average data but, to make it useful, I need to get the email alerts side of it working (e.g. an email every 6 months to confirm the fish is still alive etc).
V: the best route, if there is one, is your and your peers' call; this may or may not be too complicated at this point?

Thank you!!!!!!!!

Viktor

[Viktor Jarikov]

Hi Milton, A--a-a, finally the ichthiologists are weighing in

M: Your profile says you are a scientist, but not what kind.
V: physical chemistry, organic chemistry, physical organic chemistry, chemistry of gas, oil, and coal, chemistry of organic light-emitting diodes

M: However, I don't think this is how science in the field of ichthyology works at all.
V: You would know far, far better!

M: Ichthyologists are not just wasting time.
V: Sorry! My wording was chosen in haste and I apologise for the implications (which can be inferred from my words but which I never meant). I guess I must learn what ichthyologists are doing better before making semi-emotional statements based on quesswork. (BTW, it is like cattle calling the teapot smth smth, but Janne, you bring up solid gold points and I agree with you entirely (not that my agreement adds any value), still you could choose to consider treading a touch lighter, especially being a moderator and a prominent figure here; but alas I suffer in the department of diplomacy badly. Yeah, yeah, I know, it is none of my business.)

M: Just about all of the people who study "catfish" are doing one of a few things:
1. Describing new species of catfish. <-- before you can ask how old something gets, you need to know what it is!
2. Working with a food species, which is only a very small subset of catfish species (ie. Ictalurus punctatus).
3. Some people are doing something else, but from what I can tell there are not many of them and they are not probably not studying longevity either.
V: useful to know! 1: really!!?? Wow. Still a lot of that!! 2: so they should know their life spans, right?

M: I believe longevity is entirely irrelevant to the goals of most ichthyologists today. If they find it, it is as a by-product of research, not as a goal. For example, some scientist might do a population study that groups individuals in a population by age, and thus find out the longevity because of that (I don't know of such a study among catfishes, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist). I don't think the "naturalist" type of questions that aquarists are interested in are the types of questions that are commonly asked in research.
V: it sounds like you hit the nail on the head.

Thank you!!!

Viktor

[MatsP]

M: Just about all of the people who study "catfish" are doing one of a few things:
1. Describing new species of catfish. <-- before you can ask how old something gets, you need to know what it is!
2. Working with a food species, which is only a very small subset of catfish species (ie. Ictalurus punctatus).
3. Some people are doing something else, but from what I can tell there are not many of them and they are not probably not studying longevity either.
V: useful to know! 1: really!!?? Wow. Still a lot of that!! 2: so they should know their life spans, right?

As to #2: I don't think life span actually matters much at all. What does matter is "time to saleable/edible size" - say Salmon for example, some of these grow to 15-20kg (appro 30-40 lbs), but the ones sold in shops are usually in the 2-4kg / 4-8lbs range - so the time it takes to reach that size is what's interesting - how much longer it takes before they die is completely meaningless to these scientists. Of interest may of course be "age of sexual maturity", but given that for example Hypancistrus are sexually mature at about 3 years, and then live for 5x that time, it may also not be particularly important to know for HOW LONG AFTER they are expected to live.

--
Mats

[Viktor Jarikov]

Mats, you may be quite right. I know so little and have all but naive quesses.

[Janne]

but Janne, you bring up solid gold points and I agree with you entirely (not that my agreement adds any value), still you could choose to consider treading a touch lighter, especially being a moderator and a prominent figure here; but alas I suffer in the department of diplomacy badly. Yeah, yeah, I know, it is none of my business.)

I agree, in one of my answer I could chosed another words than I did and still get the point. What I do think, is if all get to much "scientific" we scare many beginners to start asking in the forum and I do beleive it's of highly importance to provide an expected lifespan of fishes for beginners and people with less knowledge, fishes is also animals with the same value as all other animals.

Janne

[Sam]

I think the knowledge of the longevity of said beloved pets (which to most people are like family) is up there with the paramount, and yes basic.. so I would welcome any clue ranging to fact about how long each and every individual species from snail to shark- coming from a science student and the science being natural sciences _thankyou very much if anybody can even give an estimate; it will give us more foundation to build from, better late than never.

[Sam]

We just want a rough idea of how long they live and how long we can enjoy viewing or breeding them, it's not much to ask, we are saying expected age after all.
Without much ado I think we are missing the point slightly?

[Sam]

One question I'd ask is why do you need to know this. What difference does it make? [quote][/quote] thumbs down jools

[Sam]

As to #2: I don't think life span actually matters much at all. What does matter is "time to saleable/edible size" - say Salmon for example, some of these grow to 15-20kg (appro 30-40 lbs), but the ones sold in shops are usually in the 2-4kg / 4-8lbs range - so the time it takes to reach that size is what's interesting - how much longer it takes before they die is completely meaningless to these scientists

how many salmon do you keep? do these conflict with the catfish? what about expected life span: 14years etc... maybe completely meaningless to some but most of us are keeping them to watch...for years or as long as possible
big can of worms here that could have been resolved rather easily in a couple of sweeps instead of arduous battle and callous comments