alternative filter media

[pictus_man_77]

Hi,
Quick (Slightly silly) question, but could I substitute a different media for the stuff already in my filter?

Eg Cotton wool, or a car sponge?

Thanks,
Ollie

[bob]

I kinda remember using cotton wool or cotton balls in a corner box filter many, many moons ago. If I remember correctly, it packs down and becomes useless very quickly. As for sponges, if they are free from impurities and porous, they should work. I have used plastic scourers for coarse mechanical filtration before, but again you must be very sure they are free of impurities. Some have a tiny metal ring in the center.
Bob

[Birger]

Some of the synthetic sponges carry contaminants that are possibly toxic to more sensitive fish and shrimps, I would stay away from colored sponges.

[pictus_man_77]

Thanks guys

[OldMan]

You can easily substitute fiberfill from the nearby sewing store for the filter floss that some filters still use as a polisher. Another easy substitute, if there is room, is to use a plastic pot scrubber for biomedia. It actually has a larger surface area per unit volume than almost any manufactured biomedia like the plastic ball things. The only drawback is that each one is fairly large so they can be hard to fit into many filters.

[TwoTankAmin]

You can use AquaClear sponges which are available in a variety of sizes..

The filter floss is not cotton but a synethetic. It comes in two basic forms- one looks like cotton while the other is more substantial and can be cut to shape- like the poly fiber from a fabric store. if you go to a fabric store make sure you get something that has no chemical inhibitors or fire retardents in it.

[MatsP]

And you rarely should need to replace the filter sponges - so whilst the price in the shop may be excessive, aside from the white "polishing" or "fine" filter, the other sponges last years, so there's really no reason to replace them very often - yes, I know, the manufacturer says to replace them regularly. But the only filters that you really need to replace regularly are those that have a chemical effect on the water: Nitrate reducing filters and carbon filter. Anything else is reusable until it falls apart.

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Mats

[doesdavid]

Hi. Last year i stumbled upon 2 very good filter media's, The first are the industrial scrub pads (their callesd a doodlebug here) these are made of a dripped plastic and 3/4' thick and hold way more then a spondge (brown, blue, red) are course, medium, and fine( any janitorial cleaning store has them. As for polishing I use a material called "better then burlap" sold at H**me D**ot. whenever I buy a new filter, I cut these to the size I need and just keep the charcoal, and bacteria makers. The pads last forever, and as for the cloth throw it away, their 25' X 3' for $7.95, alot cheaper the from the aquarium store stuff. Just clean everything before use, and a folded peice of the cloth is best. I even use all these in my fry tank.

DAve

[Viktor Jarikov]

Gents, Ladies,
A couple of questions for seasoned collegues. Any general and especially kitchen cleaning supplies like sponges, scrubbers, scourers, etc. ARE often treated with or coated with or contain imbedded bactericidal chemicals. (1) How would one know if they are or if they are not treated? Can one know? (2) If they are, is there a way to neutralize/get rid of these anticeptics that will kill your bacterial cultures you are trying so hard to grow and maintain on your filter media?
Viktor

[MatsP]

Most of these things that are treated with antibacterials will have that as a "feature", so it's probably going to be on the front of the package with fairly obvious writing.

However, the absence of mention of anti-bacterial properties doesn't mean it's good for the fish.

I doubt there is any sensible way to actually get rid of the anti-bacterial compounds once it is there.

I would happily use ceramics and such that weren't meant to be used in an aquarium setting, but sponges and brushes are much more likely to contain things that are added during production (even if it's just as a side-effect of the production process, such as plastic softeners to make it the right "firmness" and such things). Ceramics may be bad if they have very bright colours, but black, white, beige etc should be fine.

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Mats

[Viktor Jarikov]

Thanks Mats! Ok, I've just bought 100 US gal worth of pot scrubbers (red, blue, yellow, orange, green, and purple) for a huge filter I am rigging out of a garbage toter (to service 2500 gal indoor pond in my basement). They came 6 per package with very, very little info on the package from our local 1-dollar stores or the kind. Made in China. No mention of any aniceptic properties/treatments. So according to you (and I guess to common sense), it is likely safe to assume that they are NOT treated. Now, are you implying I should be concerned with some other effects they may have on my fish? Should I soak them (water, acid, base, vinegar?) or wash them thoroughly with detergents? What's the scoop?? Thank you!!
Viktor

[MatsP]

I personally wouldn't use sponges that are NOT made for aquarium use. If you have noticed that the sponges you get for aquarium use are quite firm/rough. This is because they have less softening compounds in them. Some of the softening compounds do eventually leech out if left in water for long enough. It is impossible to know if the ones in your sponges are indeed such that leech out or not [unless you can get the company to tell you - but they probably can't be bothered, even if you can find someone who does indeed know what is being used. It is highly likely that they buy the foam in huge sizes from some supplier, and then cut it down to shape according to what they want, and if relevant glue on a "scrubber pad" - so they probably don't actually know what exactly goes into the foam].

Of course, not all softening compounds are harmful. But sometime a year or two ago, there was a big thing on the news about "hard plastic bottles meant for babies" containing something that leeches out if you use the bottle with hot liquids - such as boiling water to make up baby milk. This is not the same thing that makes soft plastic, but I do know that SOME of the softening agents are supposed to be bad for you - I can't remember what they are called of the top of my head.

It would depend a lot on the value you put to your fish - is it really worth the saving compared to buying bulk volume of filter sponges to risk the short or long term conditions of the fish?

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Mats

[2wheelsx2]

I think there is some confusion here. The aforementioned scrubbers are nylon netting woven together, not sponges: http://wernersponds.com/scrubbies.jpg

As you can see from that website, some people are actually selling them specifically for large sumps and pond bio-media. I am using a huge pile of these in my FX5 and that's a very common media on this side of the "pond" for FX5's and other large canisters.

http://wernersponds.com/biofiltermedia.htm

The cheapest ones are perfectly safe as they are straight nylon. There are fancies with chemical added, scents and all kinds of other stuff you don't want in your tanks.

[MatsP]

Ah, ok, sorry for the confusion. Yes, if it's just nylon string formed into a net and "rolled/folded", then it should be fine.

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Mats

[andywoolloo]

I have heard also that green plastic army men are ok to use for the biological media in your filters.

Anyone try this?

[Viktor Jarikov]

To Mats: although 2wheelsx2's comments are right on the mark, I appreciate your edifying response!! Your concerns with polymer/plastic chemistry and composition ring true to my ear. The softening compounds are called plastisizers. It is never just one organic chemical. A plastisizer is a cocktail of its own with tens or hundreds of chemicals used in them, often times they are all related (belong to the same chemical class) and contain sulfure (as an element) and belong to the class of sulfides or sulfure ethers. Apart from these, there are literally millions of types of other small-molecular-weight compounds imbedded in polymer networks, such as unreacted (unpolymerized) leftover monomer, oligomers (partially polymerized compounds), polymerization initiators, co-initiators, polymerization inhibitors and quenchers, impurities of all sorts, etc., etc. Since they are small molecular size, they have some mobility inside the polymer molecular network and slowly make their way out (leech). Most of them are toxic to humans and other live forms but since the amounts (the doses) are tiny, usually FDA does not ban their use in packaging water, foods, drugs, etc. In a fish tank, there is of course a risk of over-time-accumulation, despite regular water changes.

Now having said that, there are of course great many handles scientists and technologists use to get the right softness of the plastic or plastic fiber or interwoven plastic fiber. The monomer mix, the type of and the degree of polymerization (the length of the polymer chain), the technique used to form a fiber (e.g., extrusion, temperature, etc.), the geometry of the fiber network, to name a few.

The highly publisized case of "hard plastic bottles meant for babies" you are recalling is probably the one involving bis-phenol-A, the leftover monomer that did not get polymerized (the polymerization reactions never go to completion).

To 2wheelsx2: thank you!!! Yes, these are the ones I am talking about or at least they look identical to the ones I bought. I got the idea from the monsterfishkeepers web site, which says this works excellent for great many people. The area per volume rating is also excellent.

Viktor

[2wheelsx2]

To 2wheelsx2: thank you!!! Yes, these are the ones I am talking about or at least they look identical to the ones I bought. I got the idea from the monsterfishkeepers web site, which says this works excellent for great many people. The area per volume rating is also excellent.

Viktor

I got the idea from MFK and cichlid-forum also.

[Viktor Jarikov]

wow! what a wonderful web-site you brought to my attention!!!! Wernerponds. Thank you, 2wheelsx2!!!!!!! Viktor

[Viktor Jarikov]

what's c*****d forum?

[Birger]

I have heard also that green plastic army men are ok to use for the biological media in your filters.

Anyone try this?

If you could find them little plastic navy seals may work better ...seriously though it is all about the surface area that a product could supply not necessarily what it is as long as it is non toxic, if you look at the scrubbers, bioballs or the ceramic media(which is what I like but much more expensive) they have a large surface area involved for the size of the item, the little green army men would work better if full of holes. These scrubbers being talked about are definitely cheaper in price and are useful for a number of things around the fish room.

Birger

[Viktor Jarikov]

Birger, you may be right but just for giggles, let me point out that people that want to sell you stuff may package the deal differently. See, for example:
http://www.pondliner.com/product/savio_ ... lter_media
it says: """"Savio Springflo Bio Filter Media's performance is unmatched. Unlike the copies, this patented ribbon encourages better adhesion and proliferation of bacteria using a special formulation of polypropylene and calcium carbonate. The textured surface is embossed with millions of dimples to rapidly secure and develop beneficial microorganisms. It does not clog and resists channeling and compaction in up-flow and horizontal flow pressure filter chambers. Negative buoyancy keeps it in place. Savio Springflo is easy to clean. Simply shake it and drain the filter. Other media is prone to clogging, requiring rigorous cleaning which disrupts healthy bacteria. Savio Springflo is very durable, lasting 3-5 years. Savio Springflo Bio Filter Media provides enormous surface area while being light and compact. Each roll contains 180 square foot of surface area, suitable for up to 3 cubic feet of filter volume. Easily self dispenses. Simply hold above the filter and start unwinding media from the inside center. I dispenses itself!"""""""

Now, do you buy their claim that I highlighted in bold??
Viktor

[Birger]

Now, do you buy their claim that I highlighted in bold??

encourages better adhesion and proliferation of bacteria using a special formulation of polypropylene and calcium carbonate

I am not a chemist and have no idea if these compounds are truly able to be combined in this way...I would assume they would not say so if it was not true (hehe) but what I do see is a product that to me looks like it will turn into a tangled mess...not saying it won't work, tangled mess or not it would have a fair amount of surface area.

Other media is prone to clogging, requiring rigorous cleaning

I have yet to "rigorously" clean any of these types of materials used to do this, a quick rinse seems to work just fine for me.

[2wheelsx2]

what's c*****d forum?

www.cichlid-forum.com

[Bas Pels]

read for the stars ichli

[Viktor Jarikov]

2wheelsx2, sorry to be so dense but I still do not get what this forum or website is - it appears you either assume I know it or I should be able to guess easily. Neither do I understand Bas Pels' mysterious comment. No need to explain if you'd rather not.
Viktor

[Viktor Jarikov]

Birger, as you hinted these two compounds are very, very diferent - one is an organic polymer and the other is a very highly insoluble inorganic salt - rock dust. Hard to combine them indeed, but not at all impossible: say, one can melt the polymer and mix the melt with the CaCO3 salt powder and then quickly quench the melt e.g., in cold water to get a hardned mix of the two without them having the time to separate into two phases - there are many knobs to optimize the composition and mechanical properties of the mix - temp, heating, mixing, and cooling conditions, addition of the chelating agents or polymers having both organic and inorganic molecular properties to promote adhesion of polypropylene and CaCO3, etc.

Still, you are right but I think with a small correction: if they say what they say, it is very likely at least somewhat true (in other words, it is not a blatant lie cuz that can be a big liability) and in reality I think having the mix may increase the adhesion (and hence perhaps the prolifiration) of bacteria to some degree compared to just nylon scrubbies, pure polypropylene, pure polyethylene, PVC, etc., etc. The BIG QUESTION is if this degree is (1) consistent or inconsistent (i.e., in their lab experiments - sure, they can disclose only positive findings and leave out the negative ones - often done with medicinal drugs,it would appear); (2) significant or insignificant (1-5% increase in bacteria adhesion or 20-100-500%); and (3) what is their reference point, that is compared to what. Oftentimes, the sellers chase the profits (which we tend to forget) and hence inflate or rather muddle their claims opting for weasel words and ambiguos, general sweeping statements so that if they are sued for lying they can get a reasonable defense (their attorneys craft these claims to fame; kind of like the infamous "limited lifetime warranty" - sounds nice but is the weasel words for "yeah, you can try to claim losses for the lifetime of the product but we have a million of excuses in small print or weasel wording not to do anything about it).

Bottom line: yeah, the increase/improvement may be INconsistent and/or INsignicant but if you omit these adjetives from your product description it starts to sound VERY NICE, right!!!! And you cannot not sue me cuz all I said was "better", I did not say how better!

Viktor

[Viktor Jarikov]

yeah, "encourages" is a very nice weasel word! It can mean hundred different things, especially when taken to court

[Bas Pels]

2wheelsx2, sorry to be so dense but I still do not get what this forum or website is - it appears you either assume I know it or I should be able to guess easily. Neither do I understand Bas Pels' mysterious comment. No need to explain if you'd rather not.
Viktor

sorry to be cryptic

On this forum some words are edited. If I were to write cich lid without the space in the middle, you would read cichlid.

So therefore, if you change the ***** back into ichli, you get back what was originally written

The website is therefore www.cich lid-forum.com, but again, I introduced a blank to enable you to read it

[Viktor Jarikov]

Ha-ha!!! I will never make Sherlock Holmes. Thank you Bas Pels!! I should have guessed your attempt to help me resolve my lack of understanding. I thought "ichli" refers to some character, perhaps greek. Why are some words edited? This one does not appear to be a bad or dirty word?

[MatsP]

There is a setting in user control panel to select whether you want "word censoring on or off" (It's under board options or some such).

And in the FAQ (under "Help!") there is a "what's the * in ..." entry that explains why.

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Mats