Hi again
I am just way way way excited. (and I've had a couple of beers )
So on 5 February I noticed that there was a female L239 in a cave with one of the boys.
I had a peek the next day, but really didn't want to disturb them, so left them alone........
Today I couldn't believe my eyes as to what was moving around the tank.
Have a look in the dead centre of the next 3 pictures (after all a picture is worth a thousand words)
So the pictures are crap, yes, but I know what I saw.
I needed beer so off to the bottle store (off license?) I went. I had a nice chat with the man there, and sampled a nice green apple cider. Selected my beer, with a free glass, and at the counter I realised that I had left my wallet at home. You can see that I am very excited.
So I went home and got my wallet and then returned and got my beer.
We have had people around for dinner and I kept sneaking back to the fish room........
This time I got some better photos:
It is quite remarkable really.
The little guys are very mobile and appear to be hunting food, although they will not be eating it I wouldn't think.
There are 7 or so that I have been able to see, but I am not sure they were in the cave I saw, as I still have not been able to get a look in that cave, so there may be more?
Just so exciting!
Last edited by krazyGeoff on 28 Mar 2010, 09:02, edited 1 time in total.
Hi Mats,
You know.... I am not at all good at "saving fry"
These guys are jumping an inch off the ground, and do rather seem to be more in control of their movements that the other wiggly eggs that I have had, which just sat there. These guys were nowhere to be seen, and then after feeding came to the area where the food was.
I am just going to leave them be. Personally I think that this is their best chance. The one in the first photo I have less hope for, but the ones in the last photo look good.
Edit - They are about 1 cm (TL)
Hi,
So there were about 7 in the tank, and reading the link in the other active post the Basel Zoo had about 10-12 per spawn. I can understand this because the eggs sac's were the biggest plec eggs I have seen.
I thought that that would be about all there was (the 7), however I managed to see another couple still in the cave with the male. These particular caves have a dip in the end of them, sort of like the spoon end of a spoon. So the male can appear to be lying flat while covering eggs under him. Normally with this type of cave the fry actually move to the top of the cave as they start to consume the egg yolk, and they are easy to see. These ones are still under the male.
Thanks.
The good news is that the wigglers are still alive.
The bodies on the ones from the second pictures are starting to darken, and the egg yolks are still a nice yellow colour. Egg yolks are 10-20% smaller.
Not that I am going to post pictures every day, but if I keep updating this post then we will have a record of their devlopment.
I have some work to do in the fishroom today, but after I have completed that I will be able to document what I did.
Keeping in mind of course what MatsP said in another topic:
MatsP wrote:The thing about breeding ANY pl*co is that if they decide to breed, you're pretty much done. The tricky part is to get them to lay eggs and hatch the eggs.
Now, unfortunately, it's very easy to say "I did some big water changes, added a power head, and kept them at XX temperature, fed them extra of this". But the "magic" part may be something that the author didn't even mention. Just to give ONE example, it may be a combination of the water change and the local weather conditions. The author of the report may not even have thought about the fact that the weather was changing.
--
Mats
Which I agree with, and also the fact that Farid did "nothing special" to get his L204 to spawn...
I have data on air pressure, temperature (room and tank), pH, GH, KH, TDS, and other observations.
Thanks
Geoff
I'm not sure if I should comment on the subject here or in the other thread, but you can't really know if something you did had an effect unless you have several groups of the same species, and you treat part of the group one way, and the other group some other way.
A project manager once told us a story that was something like this:
A group of pigeons are held, without food for a while, in individual enclosures and under a cover. A bit of food is sprinkled in. Then the cover it taken off, one pigeon is flapping one wing, another is walking in circles, and another is holding it's head up high. Why are they doing this, you ask yourself? Well, they are doing what they did when the food came in. The reason for this story was to explain, when we were getting a brand spanking new graphics chip to try out, that sometimes the chip doesn't work EXACTLY like you expect, and you do all sorts of things to make it work (in the pigeon story, to get food). The last thing you did isn't NECESSARILY what made it work...
I think it's fair to say that feeding plecos and keeping their water clean and well circulated is a very good starting point for breeding. But there is a lot of "this is what I did" stories going around, and I'm far from convinced that all of those are the whole story, and that it's ACTUALLY what is needed to make the fish breed. And there may be other factors that aren't at all accounted for.
My general opinion is that the MAIN point for breeding ANY fish is good water quality (aside from some fish where poor water quality make them desperate, and as a "last ditch attempt to bring on their genes", the fish spawn).
MatsP wrote:
one pigeon is flapping one wing, another is walking in circles, and another is holding it's head up high.
Mats
Ha Ha, I thought it was going to be the Project Manager (flapping), The Project Sponser (going around in circles), and the developer...........
I still agree with you Mats.
I have learn't a lot on this site by reading other peoples breeding endevours, so I just figured I would tell my story too. It might give people some ideas , or a few laughs . The thing to remember is that this worked for me, but whether or not it can be repeated is quite another story all together
I also think that there is a lot left out of documenting breeding events, just because people don't consider it important, or forget. Lucky for me and the rest of you, I actually was having an email conversation the night after I "did stuff" so I don't have to try and remember everything.
Typing is not my forte, so I'll post this reply and then start on the novel............
Geoff
The breeding tale:
Part 1; background.
There are some background factors that it is necessary to mention.
First I believe very strongly that when keeping pets, any pets, then we have a responsibility to keep them in the best possible conditions - for them, not us.
Unfortunately those conditions may not be good enough for a variety of reasons, so if no harm is actually being done then this is ok, but it won't necessarily be enough if trying to breed said pet.
Specifically of my fish, I think that if they have the "right" water (temperature, pH, etc, etc, etc), and the right food, lights etc then they will eventually breed when they are ready.
Perhaps once they have breed they will just continue to?
Perhaps they need something to "get them started"?
Do we actually know enough to come up with a sure fire formula?
Also I am very lucky with my water.....
pH out of the tap is 7.8
GH and KH is undetectable, Amonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0, TDS 50-60
24 hours after the water has come out of the tap it has a pH of 5.8-6.0
So if I put my water straight into a tank, then the pH goes up, and 24 hours later it goes down again.
If I use a pH up or down product then the pH starts at where I want it to be, but 24 hours later is has gone down by 2.0
This has meant that I need to understand how my water "ages" and use it appropriately.
Also I need to buffer almost every tank depending on what rocks and stuff is in them (I use crushed Oyster shell) to the approximate level I want it to be near.
I can also do both hard and soft water changes by using KH buffers in my "ageing tank"
I age all my water before doing a water change.
I try and research all my fish, to see if I can actually set up appropriate conditions before getting them.
I try and let the fish grow up, and not spend time trying to simulate breeding conditions when the fish are too young.
I try to take notes about what the tank parameters etc are doing.
I take note of what other people are writing about and what questions are being asked of those people.
I try to spend time observing the fish.
Perhaps I am odd? Perhaps I need a better job?
More tomorrow.........
Geoff
Sounds like your water company is adding a "volatile" buffer to the water, which when left for 24 hours has dissipated. I don't know enough about water treatment to know what that would be, but it's quite clear that it's not KH...
And yes, what you describe sounds fine. And if it wasn't so darn expensive to transport water from the opposite side of the planet, I'd like some of your water... Like a few thousand liters a month!
Probably the water company adds soda ash to buffer up the pH in the pipes to prevent corrosion. That's very common in North America. Our pH locally is like that also. Slightly alkaline out of the tap, then a lot of CO2 off-gasses and the pH comes down during the first 24 hours. You don't need to "age" the water as long if you aerate it heavily during the filling (ie, some people splash it on something or just a bubbler of some sort to speed up the off-gasing).
Interesting to know what is going on with the water. But the chances of me changing my ageing process is slim, seeing as how it seems to work for me.
Update on the wigglers. They all seem to be still alive. The egg yolk is about 1/2 of the original size and they have all pretty much turned blue (the bodies that is...)
Back to the novel....
Part 2:
Research and observation;
You can read as many books as you can and spend hours on Google and other forums, and at the end of the day you will come up with some boundaries.
Say pH 5.5 - 7.5, Strong current, Herbivore, temp 26-29.
Periods of light, rainy seasons etc etc. These all have value in regard to limits or ranges of tolerance.
I think that individual fishes, like humans, are not all the same, so then you have personal observations.
Lucky for me these specific fish have had time in 3 different tanks.
First of all they were in my community tank, so they were 2 feet from my head, when I am watching TV.
I got to observe how the behaved amongst themselves, and with other fishes.
They seemed to prefer the rocks over the wood, for example.
One day I put a power head into the tank, about 2 inches off the bottom, with the outlet "blowing" over a rock face.
I put it there as a "treadmill" for my clown loaches. They spent hours stationary swimming against the current, very much like a track cycling team event, with the front one going to the back after a while etc.
However I could also observe that late at night the alpha male L239 would come out of hiding and just lock onto the rock face and sit it the current.
The next tank they went to was a smallish species tank, which was primarily a rock setup.
The behaviour did change somewhat. I could never find them!
They didn't appear to be in the direct current so much.
They didn't seem to interact with each other very much.
No interest in being in a cave.
So I think they were not quite as "happy" so off to a bigger tank, and I got more of them also.
The new tank (current one) was originally set up as a rock tank with one bit of wood.
They seemed to prefer the wood as a hiding place, so more wood was added.
Temp pretty stable in the 29 degrees area.
Weekly water change, good food etc.
They generally seemed a bit more happy, and were easier to find etc. One took up residence in the main cave, but none of the others would occupy a cave, however one did take a residence in a "natural" cave in the wood.
Now it is 1/2 panaque tank and 1/2 rock tank, but these guys are the only fish in there.
Also I read somewhere that these guys are not that fond of the light, so I cover 2/3 of the top of the tank, so that the direct light is reduced.
They still get ambient light from the other tanks.
They seem to be a very messy fish, and I think that they make as much mess as the L204, however the mess floats in the water as un-dissolved solids, if that makes sense?
So after a week you can not see the rear of the tank (600mm) even with a torch. TDS still remains about 113 though.
I was not thinking that these guys would not be old enough to breed, so I was just letting them do their thing, but a mate of mine was over looking at them and he thought that they might be worth having a go at.
I had also read something about the colouring and somehow reached the conclusion that the brighter the blue band on the fin edge, the better condition the fish was in.
I was having a look around the tank and noticed that a couple of them had really quite blue bands, and that the oldest female looked like she might be gravid.
Well I'll give it a go I thought..........
Part 3:
Rain;
I am not a weather watcher type person, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that rain just doesn't decide to fall from the sky!
In short, the air pressure goes up, and then stuff happens and then the pressure drops and rain happens.
The bigger and quicker the drop the more intense the rain seems to be.
Based on research there is a group of fish keepers that believe that the air pressure influences the breeding cycle.
I have an open mind, there is lots of stuff that I don't fully understand, and stuff that humans don't understand, so why not.
I now have a weather station thingy that monitors the air pressure and uploads the data to my computer, so I can correlate this to any breeding event etc.
January has been a really crap month for breeding. Even my BN have not been breeding.
It has also been a really flat month for our air pressure. No peaks, and no great drops.
My other breedings have had more correlation with peaks and drops in air pressure than with water changes. Some on the up peak, and some on the down "peak".
Needless to say I have been monitoring the air pressure, and figured it would not hurt to try and get a water change to coincide with the air pressure.
The air pressure started to go up and up and up.
It was the highest it had been for 3 months, so lets get on with it.
Part 4:
What I did different to a normal water change........
The water was particularly dirty, and I was thinking that if there had not been rain for a while then the flow rates might be less, and perhaps the water quality would be reducing.
I left a zucchini in there for an extra day until it went soggy and smelly.
Then I did the following:
A normal 20-25% water change.
I put a black card between this tank and the next tank so that ambient light would not get into the tank from the side.
I changed the direction of the power head to point across the tank rather than down the length.
I ran out of water so I left the level down a bit, and the output from the filter was now only just submerged.
I used slightly colder water.
I cleaned out the filter.
The next day the water was crystal clear, the air pressure peaked and started to drop (but not enough to give actual rain), and the female was in the cave with the male.
Perhaps it was the cooler water, perhaps it was the extra Oxygen created by the increased surface agitation, perhaps the change in flow direction, perhaps the air pressure.
Perhaps a combination of one or more of these things?
Put me down for some juvies down the line. A great addition to our NZ's plec stock.
I often think how some of our European/American friends would like our water conditions.
In Akl where we both live( or close to) we get plenty of it.
I collect my water from rain in a 30,000ltr tank, and never run out.
Ph is 7.0
No nitrates, amonia etc and is very neutral.
I look out West to the Tasman sea where the next stop is Australia over 2200km open sea.
3-9kms East to the other side of Auckland you have the Sth Pacific with exception of a few Islands you have about 8000km to Sth America. Distances across water not much different going Nth or Sth.
Yeah clean water is one thing we got lots of.
krazyGeoff wrote:Perhaps it was the cooler water, perhaps it was the extra Oxygen created by the increased surface agitation, perhaps the change in flow direction, perhaps the air pressure.
Perhaps a combination of one or more of these things?
Impossible to tell. If only one variable had changed we could be more confident, but with all these variables you can't say much.
- Milton Tan
Research Scientist @ Illinois Natural History Survey
krazyGeoff wrote:Perhaps it was the cooler water, perhaps it was the extra Oxygen created by the increased surface agitation, perhaps the change in flow direction, perhaps the air pressure.
Perhaps a combination of one or more of these things?
Impossible to tell. If only one variable had changed we could be more confident, but with all these variables you can't say much.
And I think that that demonstrates Mats' point earlier.
Todays update may not be the best news.
Today I can't see the little guys anywhere. I am still sure there is some in the cave, and I can't see any little corpses anywhere, and I can't see more than about 40% of the tank anyway, so they may just be there somewhere, and I'll see them again later....
It can be done so I am confident they will spawn again.
I often think how some of our European/American friends would like our water conditions.
In Akl where we both live( or close to) we get plenty of it.
I collect my water from rain in a 30,000ltr tank, and never run out.
Ph is 7.0
No nitrates, amonia etc and is very neutral.
Yes, we get perfect tapwater down here in Christchurch, even better than Auckland probably. We have 0 nitrate, nice and soft (150us), and pH about 7.3, but drops just below neutral with little effort.
Couldn't ask for better water really. The only downside is that its almost impossible to find any interesting and affordable fish to keep in it, especially catfish.
Just the other day there was a post asking why there was no information on the site about breeding this species.
Regarding the "tricks" to make them spawn, I think people concentrate on what water chemistry change triggers them, rather than looking at the months/years of conditioning, and the effort that goes into setting up an appropriate aquarium for them. I think these are the most important factors.
racoll wrote:Regarding the "tricks" to make them spawn, I think people concentrate on what water chemistry change triggers them, rather than looking at the months/years of conditioning, and the effort that goes into setting up an appropriate aquarium for them. I think these are the most important factors.
That is of course a large factor, and the right triggers are ALSO needed. And I think we don't ACTUALLY know that much about how these fish get to spawn. So we all record all manner of data, but we don't KNOW what the trigger is, and since nearly all of us don't keep several groups under identical conditions save ONE factor, we can't say for sure how much anything we actually do are affecting their spawning. Would the fish have spawned even if X hadn't been done?
I'm not saying "don't do stuff to make the fish spawn", I'm just saying without parallel groups of fish under identical conditions besides ONE thing, we don't know what effect anything has.
And I'm not saying "don't record what you did"... It is quite clear that there are some things we should do to make (some) fish spawn... And it's good to have a lot of data on that.
But I also don't think there is a single magic formula for a given fish. Trying to replicate the exact pH, KH, GH, temperature of another persons successful spawn is probably not the only way to breed the fish....
Keeping a loggbook for each breeding group is very helpful... after some years ;) In fact it's extremely rare to succeed to breed anything just bought and recently imported from WC species, conditioning and adaptation to their new environment is the most important to get them to breed later. Water is a living media and every aquarist has different kind of water in their aquariums even if they live in the same house above each other, both may succeed to breed the same species after good conditioning changing two totally different parameters. Well fed and in good condition, good water quality and of course mature adults of both sexes that have etablished their territory and accepted their new home often only need one change in their environment... not necessary the same change everytime.
Even if some species require soft water to breed that is not the only requirements, only a good start before they are triggered by something else. One good thing, when trying to breed a species that not has spawned earlier is to wait until their natural breeding season start before trigger them to breed... than it gets easier for each time even outside their natural breeding season, I mean all WC species and not only never before bred ones... the first time they will spawn after moving from the wild into the aquarium. I suppose that many hobbyist's try to breed their plecos as soon as possible in any time of the year if they have breeding as interest, they try and try and both the owner and the fishes gets tired. Conditioning first, let the female develope eggs and get fat (ripped with eggs) and watch the male and female if they show interest in each other... when they do it's time to trigger them to breed, almost 99,9% security... even if they not breed the next day ;) If these basic condition is not fulfilled they will never breed how hard we ever try.
Thanks everyone,
Sadly I think that the little guys have not survived. I have had some temperature issues with my bigger (250 litre +) tanks, and even with the heaters unplugged and fans blowing air at them, and with extra water changes it has been difficult keeping the temperature under 30 degrees. It may have been just a little too much for the babies.......
Janne wrote:
In fact it's extremely rare to succeed to breed anything just bought and recently imported from WC species, conditioning and adaptation to their new environment is the most important to get them to breed later.
Interestingly I was concentrating more on the "conditioning and adaptation to their new environment" rather than breeding all of my recent breedings, as I had assumed that all the fish were not mature enough, and towards the end of this year I was to be concentrating on breeding efforts.
Janne wrote:
One good thing, when trying to breed a species that not has spawned earlier is to wait until their natural breeding season start before trigger them to breed... than it gets easier for each time even outside their natural breeding season, I mean all WC species and not only never before bred ones...
Based on what Larry has said regarding the breeding season for his L134, I have estimated that the breeding season here will most likely be October - April.
I think this will be similar to the breeding season in the wild?
With no particular effort on my behalf (other than providing a good environment and good food) the L140 have also spawned again and the L002 male has had the female in his cave for 3 days now. He has "swept" away the gravel at the entrance to the cave today, which has previously indicated that she finally believes all the lies he is telling her and is co-operating
Another fault many aquarist do when they discover fry in their tank is to leave them thinking they will survive, fry that have their yolk sac left are "candy" for all other plecos or fishes in the same tank... even for their parents. Fry that are in the end to consumed their yolk sac are more move able and if lucky they can escape but most of them die in one way or another. All newly hatched or up too 1-2 weeks old fry should be caught and placed in a rearing container... that increase their chances to survive with 99,9%. Fry inside the cave with a caring father, let the father take care of the fry... fry outside the cave you have to take care of the fry, it's a good rule. Even when the fry normally leave the cave they should be moved to a rearing container, if the owner wants to save and raise as many as possible.
)
, or a few laughs 
. The thing to remember is that this worked for me, but whether or not it can be repeated is quite another story all together
